Preferred Midfield Mix

[Accepting Mediocrity 1,418]

Surprised at the lack of love for Viney on here. He's central to the way we want to play, and is probably tracking for another top 5 finish in the Bluey (despite a couple of poor games). He's also probably our least versatile mid so I'd be reluctant to take him out.

I agree that our midfield is too one-dimensional, but I also think that people tend to overreact after a bad loss. Sure, our mids were horrific against Port, but the same mix of players looked like world beaters 2 weeks ago against the hawks. I think our midfield probably sits somewhere in the middle of the 2 performances, and it needs tweaking rather than wholesale changes.

Like others, I'd like to Harmes used as a defensive mid and Oliver to spend more time forward. I'd also like to see Salem get more midfield time. On paper, he's exactly what we are currently lacking. I don't think we're getting full value out of him at half back.

[WERRIDEE 5,473]

Viney, Petracca and Harmes. Harmes to tag the other 2 to get it out. The reason I don't want Oliver there is because he can't kick and I don't want Brayshaw there because he is no good. 

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

Viney is having  a great season and he has even improved his kicking  (take note Clayton).

 

[Young Blood 2,620]

I can't believe those who are saying Viney is the issue. He has been so good this year and other then Petracca the only one who takes the game on and gives us genuine forward momentum from stoppages. I've been super impressed with his improvement with ball in hand whether it be patience, decision making and kicking. Obviously room for improvement but tracking along really well now that he seems he is finally fit and free from injury.

For me its absolutely Clayton who has been more of a liability this year. He doesn't look confident with ball in hand like Trac and Viney. He is still getting his hands on the ball but his decision making is just awful. He is has fallen behind in his development due to the fact that he hasn't added to his game. He doesn't look to break the lines or improve his kicking. When he does somehow find himself in space he looks panicked and unsure. Rarely makes the right choice with disposal beyond the in tight handball. The good thing is he's 23. There's so much time for him to really build on his game if he wants to. I think he has the capacity. He has the body to be able to do more I just hope he has the IQ to keep improving in that area.

Brayshaw is still the unknown. While he hasn't been performing I think he is almost the opposite to Clayton in some ways. I think he has the IQ and the sense of timing and space to be an effective midfielder. Its his intensity thats off at the moment. He always looks slow and lethargic but this year just seems to be making decisions late. I really wonder about his overall fitness.

If someone had to go it would be Harmes without a doubt. As many have said on here with his breakout being in a specific role he was made to look better then he actually is. Tagging is out of vogue at the moment and I can't see Harmes playing that role again any time soon. 

With all that said I'm glad we have some up and comers in Sparrow and Jordan who look to be developing nicely.

[BW511 2,668]

35 minutes ago, Accepting Mediocrity said:

I agree that our midfield is too one-dimensional, but I also think that people tend to overreact after a bad loss. Sure, our mids were horrific against Port, but the same mix of players looked like world beaters 2 weeks ago against the hawks. I think our midfield probably sits somewhere in the middle of the 2 performances, and it needs tweaking rather than wholesale changes.

I'm not sure it's an overreaction, the midfield as a whole group has not fired in a long time. We've been carried by good performance from Max, Viney, Trac or Clayton individually or as a pair. I can't remember a game where the whole group was up and about.

Even when we are winning, supporters, commentators and opposition fans are asking what's happened to Harmesy or Gus. You simply cannot afford to carry blokes who are out of form/position/favour anymore.

One thing that infuriated me against Brisbane was how many touches Lachie Neale got from sweeping round the back of a stoppage. His fellow mids work to create so much space for him to gather and burst away from stoppages while there was a pile up of our guys lying on the ground or running in the wrong direction.

Edited August 3, 2020 by BW511

[Half forward flank 1,022]

3 hours ago, DeeSpencer said:

At least 3 issues with that plan:

1. Viney isn't getting us first round compo, plus you'd have to add another first to pick 5 just to get the Suns remotely interested
2. Ben King is happy at the Suns - he wants to be his own man out of Max's shadow -  and if he isn't why would he choose us?
3. If you believe the strong rumours last year the Suns already backed up the cash truck big time and signed King on 700+, he'll make more than Viney next year.

 

King is happy at GC. They are a very united camp. 

[Adam The God 30,222]

48 minutes ago, BW511 said:

I'm not sure it's an overreaction, the midfield as a whole group has not fired in a long time. We've been carried by good performance from Max, Viney, Trac or Clayton individually or as a pair. I can't remember a game where the whole group was up and about.

Even when we are winning, supporters, commentators and opposition fans are asking what's happened to Harmesy or Gus. You simply cannot afford to carry blokes who are out of form/position/favour anymore.

One thing that infuriated me against Brisbane was how many touches Lachie Neale got from sweeping round the back of a stoppage. His fellow mids work to create so much space for him to gather and burst away from stoppages while there was a pile up of our guys lying on the ground or running in the wrong direction.

Great post.

Our midfield doesn't work as one. They don't block enough for each other. I think this is because they've been trained to be contested, see ball, get ball and the fact that Viney's style is robust and unpredictable.

I think some posters are getting me wrong here and the thesis in terms of not rating Viney. I rate Jack, I just think our midfield as a whole would function better without him, and there's a significant body of evidence that supports this theory.

Edited August 3, 2020 by A F

[DeeSpencer 25,682]

44 minutes ago, Yung Blood said:

I can't believe those who are saying Viney is the issue. He has been so good this year and other then Petracca the only one who takes the game on and gives us genuine forward momentum from stoppages. I've been super impressed with his improvement with ball in hand whether it be patience, decision making and kicking. Obviously room for improvement but tracking along really well now that he seems he is finally fit and free from injury.

For me its absolutely Clayton who has been more of a liability this year. He doesn't look confident with ball in hand like Trac and Viney. He is still getting his hands on the ball but his decision making is just awful. He is has fallen behind in his development due to the fact that he hasn't added to his game. He doesn't look to break the lines or improve his kicking. When he does somehow find himself in space he looks panicked and unsure. Rarely makes the right choice with disposal beyond the in tight handball. The good thing is he's 23. There's so much time for him to really build on his game if he wants to. I think he has the capacity. He has the body to be able to do more I just hope he has the IQ to keep improving in that area.

Brayshaw is still the unknown. While he hasn't been performing I think he is almost the opposite to Clayton in some ways. I think he has the IQ and the sense of timing and space to be an effective midfielder. Its his intensity thats off at the moment. He always looks slow and lethargic but this year just seems to be making decisions late. I really wonder about his overall fitness.

If someone had to go it would be Harmes without a doubt. As many have said on here with his breakout being in a specific role he was made to look better then he actually is. Tagging is out of vogue at the moment and I can't see Harmes playing that role again any time soon. 

With all that said I'm glad we have some up and comers in Sparrow and Jordan who look to be developing nicely.

Good post. Agree entirely on Viney and Oliver.

The thing is Harmes has moved out of the midfield. First and also most recently to half back, we'll see how that goes. But also to half forward where he's been effective in his role but used the ball poorly - which isn't a huge surprise, half forward is the hardest spot to use it. He isn't tagging because Viney and Oliver are so good with pressure around the packs and then Petracca and those 2 all win so much of the ball we don't need to pay special attention to the vast majority mids. 

Harmes will either settle at half back and help fill a pretty big void there, or he'll eventually go back to forward/mid in some combination and I expect him to play well whilst still being up and down with his skills. That's the nature of a hard working half forward.

Sparrow and Jordon are nice enough on ball prospects. The issue is having very little developing in the wing and flanker spots.

Rivers (tick), Spargo (hmmm not entirely ready to give up), Baker (worth a shot given the upside), Dunkley, C Wagner even J Wagner. Our list is very light on for proper versatile flanker types.

[cantstandyasam 700]

6 hours ago, Gawndog98 said:

I believe we can only play 4 of Oliver, Viney, Petracca, Brayshaw, Harmes. In my opinion Oliver and Viney can't play in the same side together because they are both instinctively handball first players, they often put each other under pressure when they should be clearing the ball forward. Brayshaw's first instinct is to kick the ball, this is why Oliver and Brayshaw work well together I believe. 

My preferred midfield mix would be Oliver, Brayshaw, Harmes, and Petracca with Langdon, Tomlinson, and Vanders on the wings. Goody please just let Harmes go back to being a tagger, genuinely had such a big impact in this role in 2018 as he not only negated the best oppo mid but also kicked goals on them. Like Dusty, Petracca should be a forward half mid as he such a big impact up forward as well. This allows Oliver and Brayshaw to roam the full ground and then rotate for Petracca forward when they need a break. We then just need our outside mids to be solid, all of them have pretty good defensive accountability and cover the ground very well. 

Very harsh but I would leave Viney out of the side. I love everything he's done for the club and his passion on the field, but the hard truth is that he just doesn't function well with the other mids at our disposal. I think we have a real opportunity to get good value for him this off season. If we let him walk as a free agent this off season it gives a massive chance to chase a big name in a position of need with that free'd up 600-700k that i'd imagine he would command. Not only do we get free'd up salary cap space we would also most likely get a first round compensation pick due to the size of his contract an opposition club gives him, which would fall the next pick after our first round pick (which belongs to north), which looks like a top 10 pick. The obvious player to go after with the cap space is Zac Williams, as he would cost nothing being a free agent and fill a massive need for us with his linebreaking speed and kicking off half back, and is very good defensively. Joe Daniher is the only other free agent I'd look at but I believe Weid's development this year has been good enough that we don't need him. If we can't get Williams i'd be looking to trade the first round compensation pick for Viney for a similar style player. Harry Perryman, Rory Laird, Jordan Ridley all players i'd be looking at. If we could somehow bundle up a package for Josh Kelly that would be the big one.

I'd love for us to recruit Zac Williams, he is the perfect player for us.

 

[Pates 9,660]

It's interesting to see that most of the feelings on here point to Jack as the issue and to a large extent I see where it's coming from. He is a "bull" that busts through doing the classic "see ball get ball" mentality. I think that's still essential to our structure and in recent weeks he has been improving with better decision making (although like many that seemed to go totally out the window on Thursday). 

I've been a defender of Brayshaw despite is poor year so far and been hopeful he would turn it around, it just doesn't seem to be happening. I'd like to see him given more minutes in the centre and throw Viney into AvB's role (should he not be available vs Adelaide). I feel like that Viney's standing at the club is set, and there's no doubt he has put in performances that have got us over the line, so if it's a choice between him and Gus I think they may look at trading Gus. Brayshaw just looks lost right now, he doesn't seem to know where to be at the contest and I think he's working more as an outside player that every now and then swaps to being inside. 

Ultimately what was lacking last week was desire at the contests, everyone got their pants pulled down in that capacity. Even Gawn was knocking the ball down to himself every now and then. 

We lack class on the outside, I really would've liked us to go after Hill, but he's the sort of player we need, hopefully a little younger.

[whatwhat say what 22,745]

gawn, petracca, oliver, and viney is the obvious four

harmes SHOULD be in there as a tagger, and whether he starts on the inside or then comes off the flank to play as the fourth around the ball or alternatively starts in there and trac, clayton, and jack rotate in / out is an option

i'm another who doesn't want brayshaw anywhere - he looks completely disinterested, and is slower and as poor a ball user as dom tyson

[Gawndog98 363]

I don't think people are necessarily pointing out Jack as the issue, the issue is that too many of our mids have the same attributes, in particular Jack and Clarry. Regarding Brayshaw I don't understand how the coach and the supporters expect to him play well when he's being played  on a wing, he doesn't have the pace, running capacity, or foot skills to play on a wing, of course he's not going to play well because that's not the position he's suited too, his form isn't going to turn until he is put back into the inside midfield and left there. 

One of the big reason's why people are saying Viney needs to go is because of the timing of the contracts and value. If we trade Brayshaw we wouldn't get much value at all, and he still has 2 years on his contract that we would probably have to pay a bit of. Viney on the other hand is free agent that would net us most likely a top 10 compensation pick and cap space to target a position of need. I love Jack as a player and as person who has done so much for our club, and he has significantly upped his game this year and carried our team at times this year, but in my opinion he makes the most sense to let go because of the timing and fit. 

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

On 8/3/2020 at 11:33 AM, A F said:

Hi all. If one of the mods thinks this might be better in one of the other threads, feel free to merge. It feels like it needs its own thread though to me.

I want to discuss what people's preferred midfield mix is given IMV, we haven't been able to get the balance right now for at least 3 years or longer.

Everyone talks about the need for outside pace and delivery, better ball users, better structures or whatever.

But I want to talk purely about personnel here, because if we think back to the only time our midfield has truly clicked under Goodwin (outside of a patch in 2017 when we didn't have Gawn and became less predictable in a good way...), and we saw exponential growth in a number of players, was the middle of 2018.

The starting mids at that time were a mixture of Oliver, Gus and Harmes. Jones had moved to the half back flank by then. So had Lewis. Viney was out injured and we saw Harmes' growth as a run with mid. Gus worked nicely as an inside/outside mid that would often receive handballs from Oliver and then clear with reasonable accuracy and distance. It was a predictable mixture for our forwards too.

By the time the finals series came, Viney was back and played midfield minutes and was brilliant in the finals series, I thought. Our pressure was the highest it's been from the forwards and the mids, and the system was implementable for two weeks IMV.

There are a multitude of factors as to why 2019 was an unacceptable shambles, however we began the reset this year and let alone the forward delivery being a carbon copy of the issues experienced in 2019, it's pretty clear we haven't got the midfield mix right this year either. Even in the 3.5 quarters that we played against Hawthorn, easily our best match, we wasted, IMV, Gus and Harmes, who were probably easily in the bottom 5 for me in that game.

The other element that has thrown out our midfield mix is the rise of Petracca this year in particular. Last year the stats said he was playing 30/70% mid/forward, this year, those stats are reversed and rightly so. He's an impact player in the mould of Dustin Martin.

So how to get the best of out of our midfield? I've read multiple posts calling for Oliver to move forward, because Viney can't play anywhere else, because Petracca is so dominant you need him in the middle etc, and I've argued you fix the systems to better utilise the talents you have, not move the magnets.

However, IMV, our most balanced and damaging midfield combination is Oliver, Petracca and Gus, with Harmes filling in their midfield minutes when off or forward. Langdon has been a good recruit, despite what some think, and will become a very important player for us. Particularly, on the expanses of the MCG in years to come. He needs to fix up his disposal, but he'll get there. I'd also be playing Tomlinson on the other wing. Use his aerobic power and abilities to stretch the opposition and their zones.

So where does that leave Viney? Someone posted the other day, I can't remember who (sorry), that Viney throws out our midfield mix. I think it was you @rjay? I tend to agree. And whilst he loves the club and is a bull, he's too see ball get ball, but if he doesn't win the ball, often it's going down the other end.

This isn't a case of Viney improving his defensive accountability. He's not necessarily bad in that department, it's just his style bashes and crashes the midfield mix to a point where he upsets Oliver and Petracca's cleaner clearances and the makes our midfield less predictable to our forwards. This impacts on forward connection IMO.

At the end of last year, I wrote here that I'd be trading either Gus or Viney, because both players have difficulty slotting in anywhere else. And despite Jack having a very solid season, he's the one I'd be trading. Not to mention, we'd probably be well compensated for him (and could look to trade it for Ben King), I think we had an A grade midfield for the majority of 2018 and we've never recaptured that since Viney has returned to the mix.

In the meantime, I'd be playing Viney at half forward in AVB's pressure role, but I'd take the majority of his midfield minutes away from him. A tough, bold call, but we need to need recapture the 2018 form and the common denominator of success that season was the midfield mix I've described above. It's quite possible that the circuit-breaker of a new coach is needed to implement this, otherwise Goodwin, in order to save his job, must reshuffle.

Discuss.

 

Gawn/LJ
Oliver
Petracca
Jordon
Langdon
Viney
Pickett
 

I love our new midfield!    Just looking for Angus to kick it up a notch now before I add his name in there.  

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

What I've noticed is that we seem to be changing it up constantly.

I love that because it seems like a really offensive mindset. Keep them guessing and give them something different to deal with at every centre bounce.

Predictability has been a weakness for us in there and having Clarry and Viney at every centre bounce only gives you so many ways to clear the ball and this is why I think we eventually get picked off.

Every mid seems to be getting a look at a centre bounce and this is why I can't see us dropping LJ. He's not just giving Max a chop out, he's genuinely holding his own in there and has actually helped facilitate a lift in clearance numbers a couple of times.

In summary, keep throwing different looks at them.

[Adam The God 30,222]

18 minutes ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

 

Gawn/LJ
Oliver
Petracca
Jordon
Langdon
Viney
Pickett
 

I love our new midfield!    Just looking for Angus to kick it up a notch now before I add his name in there.  

Ed doesn't tend to play centre bounces but  if he's included, Gus should certainly be in there. Sparrow occasionally takes forward stoppages and Harmes will when he's fit again too. 

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

9 minutes ago, A F said:

Ed doesn't tend to play centre bounces but  if he's included, Gus should certainly be in there. Sparrow occasionally takes forward stoppages and Harmes will when he's fit again too. 

Yep. Harmes was at plenty of centre bounces in round one.

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

1 hour ago, A F said:

Ed doesn't tend to play centre bounces but  if he's included, Gus should certainly be in there. Sparrow occasionally takes forward stoppages and Harmes will when he's fit again too. 

 

Should have mentioned I wasn't putting the players in any positional order there.

If I was it would be Oliver-Petracca-Pickett at the opening bounces.... love that mix.

[whatwhat say what 22,745]

current mix seems to, at the opening bounce:

• gawn
• oliver
• petracca
• pickett

then the rotations seem to be:

• jackson for gawn
• viney for pickett
• jordon for petracca
• sparrow for oliver

at some stages late in quarters in particular anb and jones roll through too

i like the variety - makes us far less predictable

[rpfc 28,386]

Clearances becoming less and less important as teams get most of their opportunities from turnovers in the backline or forward line. 
 

The biggest reason is the competitive nature of a stoppage means that kicks from there (most clearances) are going to be low percentage movements forward. 
 

Just compete in there and and don’t let a team walk out with it and then spread and get the footy going down the other side of the ground. 
 

Gruelling footy for mids but takes the pressure off to win the clearance stat.

[58er 6,425]

1 hour ago, whatwhat say what said:

current mix seems to, at the opening bounce:

• gawn
• oliver
• petracca
• pickett

then the rotations seem to be:

• jackson for gawn
• viney for pickett
• jordon for petracca
• sparrow for oliver

at some stages late in quarters in particular anb and jones roll through too

i like the variety - makes us far less predictable

Great work by Yze and the Coaches and players 

[58er 6,425]

4 hours ago, Pickett2Jackson said:

 

Gawn/LJ
Oliver
Petracca
Jordon
Langdon
Viney
Pickett
 

I love our new midfield!    Just looking for Angus to kick it up a notch now before I add his name in there.  

Sparrow also P2J

[CHF 2,736]

I think that we have an excellent midfield mix at the moment and that the coaching staff are using them well.

Inside we have a number of quality players that can rotate through and a number of different setups that we can go to. On the wings there is Mr. 100% TOG, Langdon on one wing and on the other we look to run a few through there. Brayshaw is the latest and I do not mind him there. I think he will prove to be effective out there. With him in the team we also have an option to rotate him into the center with ANB, Hunt or Harmes spending time there in his stead. 

Petracca, Oliver and Viney are our critical building blocks in the middle but there are the support players there also move through there. I have been impressed by both Sparrow and Jordon and the work that they do around the ground. It can only benefit them to have the three above the work, train and play with day in day out.

That is 9 names from last week's team plus Harmes. I think that, with the new interchange numbers, we need 12 names that can spend time in the midfield As options  we have Kossie to flash in and out of the starting mid. Jones is another but he will spend limited time there. Jackson lining up in the middle a few times a match to shark Max's taps? I would not mind seeing that.

With the depth we have I think the midfield structure and flexibility we have us excellent.

We, and the coaches, know exactly how Viney plays and it is up to the coaches to get the best out of him within the team structure. To My Mind he is too good to lose from the list.

[sisso 2,580]

Pickett getting time in the centre is very exciting for our side he brings X factor wherever he plays on the field: love this move

[Pickett2Jackson 3,904]

3 hours ago, 58er said:

Sparrow also P2J

Yes , Sparrow too.  He loves a goal that kid.

[Cheesy D. Pun 1,765]

5 hours ago, rpfc said:

Clearances becoming less and less important as teams get most of their opportunities from turnovers in the backline or forward line. 
 

The biggest reason is the competitive nature of a stoppage means that kicks from there (most clearances) are going to be low percentage movements forward. 
 

Just compete in there and and don’t let a team walk out with it and then spread and get the footy going down the other side of the ground. 
 

Gruelling footy for mids but takes the pressure off to win the clearance stat.

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