On 20/11/2019 at 23:54, old dee said:

If we are 0-5 jnr then Goodwin's time at the MFC will be close to over. In fact I would say it is play finals in 2020 or the highway  back to Adelaide for him.

Give it time OD, what's another year in the scheme of things. 

Be positive, its another year closer to eternal peace.

The Chinese think in terms of 100 years and if you read The Vedas (the English translation not the original Sanskrit), millenia. 

Goody will be but a speck in the Cosmos as will we all.

Melbourne, the club and the city, will have a Chinese name and English will be the second language for all its inhabitants, but be an optional subject in all schools. The footy record will be in Mandarin. 

Footy will be played on astroturf the size of a basketball court, be indoors, and spectators will only barrack on cue from the Commissaires that control the game. Footballers will wear padding and helmets, and only be able to run forward. They will rotate every 3 minutes as they will have 16 players on the bench. Oh, and there will be no tackling above the waist.   

  On 20/11/2019 at 23:11, hemingway said:

Great analysis and summary Lucifer. 

The injuries did expose our lack of "star power" and our general lack of depth across all lines. We simply did not have the cattle on the field.  And with our poor start, the confidence slipped away, momentum was lost and the players were always chasing. 

However, the clubs reaction post season, its stability, its unity and its decision making cannot be faulted. It reflects a professionally run club that has processed the poor season and taken action to address the problem. It does not fix everything and no doubt it will be a topsy turvy season in 2020 but it does give you confidence that the club know's what it's doing. 

It's actions have not been indicative of a club in crisis or a fractious club. There have been no leaks, no slagging off by disgruntled players or coaches, and, importantly, no media beat ups from the dirt diggers. 

 

 

 

The injuries were catastrophic. The 'lack of depth'... isn't a lack per se, it's where any football team would have been at, in trying to plug holes with player 40 on their list.

Edited November 21, 20195 yr by Engorged Onion

  On 21/11/2019 at 00:09, hemingway said:

At the present time, that's all that matters.

I agree.  Like I said, I can't wait for 2020.

Having said that, if the topic of 2019 is being discussed, then it's only fair to highlight what our coaching staff thought were the major factors to a poor 2019.  Apparently that means I haven't moved on, though.  Oh well.

  On 20/11/2019 at 23:41, Wiseblood said:

It was one person really.  He knows who he is.  I was trying to be more subtle but yeah, whatever.

And who says I, or others, haven't moved on?  Don't put words in my mouth, like you're want to do.  All I've said is that what they presented supports what many viewed as the major issue for 2019.  That's all.  Why you need a massive diatribe to try and make that more than it is, is beyond me.  

I can't wait for 2020.  2019 is well and truly in the rear view mirror.  Doesn't mean I can't say that I believe our pre-season, and the injuries and surgeries we had, wasn't a major reason for the shocker we had. 

diatribe = a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something, stream of abuse.  Hardly a fair description of my post.

You are quite right, you and others can say whatever they like but its also fair that people present information and facts that may not be in the public domain to clarify, which I think is what I did without emotion and certainly not with anger or criticism.

  On 21/11/2019 at 00:37, Lucifer's Hero said:

diatribe = a forceful and bitter verbal attack against someone or something, stream of abuse.  Hardly a fair description of my post.

You are quite right, you and others can say whatever they like but its also fair that people present information and facts that may not be in the public domain to clarify, which I think is what I did without emotion and certainly not with anger or criticism.

That's fine.  I know I'm not perfect, but I often like to think I do the same.

Just don't put words in my mouth.  While I've been quite vocal about the fact I think injuries were the major issue, I've also discussed at length over the season the other reasons why we had a bad season.  It wasn't all down to that, but it was a major factor, and if Mahoney and the club are highlighting it then I think we're well within our rights to discuss it, which is all I was doing.  I don't need to move on from it, as I already have.  

However, if it's raised like it has been, then it's up for discussion.  As I've said, I can't wait to see what we can achieve in 2020 with a fair crack at it, which is something we absolutely didn't have last year.

  On 20/11/2019 at 21:27, Wiseblood said:

Secondly, as Fifty-5 mentioned above, I really don't think it can be understated how much the pre-season affected us (even though some were saying we didn't have anyone with an interrupted pre-season, but whatever...).  I think Burgess making the comment that it's close to impossible to catch up on any fitness/conditioning etc. when the season is underway highlights how far behind the eight ball we were before a ball was even bounced.  We were under prepared, not fit enough and didn't have the cohesion to put into practice any changes to the gameplan.

Of course, there were probably a few mistakes made along the way that we will learn from, but I have every confidence that we can bounce back and play finals in 2020 if we keep the majority of our list fit and on the park for the season.

I have spoken to many people regarding the effect our pre-season had on the club this year, the one's I have taken most notice of are 2 friends of my daughter who were assistant coaches at the bulldogs, another friend who was a 300+ game player at the bulldogs and my grandson's godfather who played for the saints and bulldogs and was a 2 time winner of the JJ Liston trophy and they all say for that many players to have missed so much of the pre-season it would have had a dire effect on the teams overall performances during the year. 

Add the injuries we copped during the year, we had no chance really.

 

  On 21/11/2019 at 00:55, drysdale demon said:

I have spoken to many people regarding the effect our pre-season had on the club this year, the one's I have taken most notice of are 2 friends of my daughter who were assistant coaches at the bulldogs, another friend who was a 300+ game player at the bulldogs and my grandson's godfather who played for the saints and bulldogs and was a 2 time winner of the JJ Liston trophy and they all say for that many players to have missed so much of the pre-season it would have had a dire effect on the teams overall performances during the year. 

Add the injuries we copped during the year, we had no chance really.

 

Bingo.

I also spoke with someone very close to McCartney during the year and got the same answer.

Again, I know it's not the whole story, but it's an extremely large part of it.

I'm surprised Norm Smith wasn't mentioned as a reason?

  On 21/11/2019 at 01:28, SFebes said:

I'm surprised Norm Smith wasn't mentioned as a reason?

Well that's really funny isn't it.

  On 21/11/2019 at 00:23, hemingway said:

Give it time OD, what's another year in the scheme of things. 

Be positive, its another year closer to eternal peace.

The Chinese think in terms of 100 years and if you read The Vedas (the English translation not the original Sanskrit), millenia. 

Goody will be but a speck in the Cosmos as will we all.

Melbourne, the club and the city, will have a Chinese name and English will be the second language for all its inhabitants, but be an optional subject in all schools. The footy record will be in Mandarin. 

Footy will be played on astroturf the size of a basketball court, be indoors, and spectators will only barrack on cue from the Commissaires that control the game. Footballers will wear padding and helmets, and only be able to run forward. They will rotate every 3 minutes as they will have 16 players on the bench. Oh, and there will be no tackling above the waist.   

I have only one trouble with the  above Ernest, My time is running out fast, I have no time for the Chinese way of viewing things.

I actually don't believe we will win a flag in the years I have left.

Now I just want a powerful team that regularly plays finals well  into the finals period every year.

Thank God I wont be around to see your future game predictions.

Edited November 21, 20195 yr by old dee

  On 19/11/2019 at 07:43, Diamond_Jim said:

Timely article in today's Age on Hawthorn's new facility at Dingley

"After recording another multi-million dollar profit Hawthorn say they are on track to build their elite training, administration and community centre in Dingley by the end of 2022, with close to $29 million already gained via fundraising to pay for the ambitious project.

The Hawks have declared the next six months as being critical to realising their vision as they look to secure planning approval and further funding for the initiative which is budgeted to eventually cost the club $110 million.

The club says the Kennedy Community Centre project will be transformative by establishing the premier sporting and community precinct in the south-east of Melbourne as they work towards realising their goal of winning 20 premierships by 2050 and two premierships within the next five years."

Interesting to see that Liverpool's new training facility is costed at much the same as Hawthorn's.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/nov/20/liverpool-hope-50m-kirkby-training-facility-will-inspire-academy-players

"Liverpool are on course for next summer’s move to a new £50m training facility in Kirkby that manager Jürgen Klopp believes will inspire the club’s academy prospects in their pursuit of a first team place. "

  On 21/11/2019 at 01:28, SFebes said:

I'm surprised Norm Smith wasn't mentioned as a reason?

A good question would have been to make a statement about the Norm Snith curse and ask what the club leadership plans to do to end it. 

  On 21/11/2019 at 00:16, chook fowler said:

i find the comment that we didn't handle the 666 well a bit of an indictment. The football department should have been all over it.

Agree, interesting that Craig Jennings was our game strategist last season and he has been moved on ...

  On 21/11/2019 at 00:16, chook fowler said:

i find the comment that we didn't handle the 666 well a bit of an indictment. The football department should have been all over it.

666 only effected a very small percentage of game time.

...but thinking back it actually won us the GC game.

We openend up our forward half, got a quick clearance and a lucky point.

Wouldn't have happened under the old rules.

I don't understand why we didn't learn our lesson then.

Apart from this one do or die incident we never seemed set up our forward structure to advantage of the rule.

It wasn't that hard really...

I would like to know why we didn't handle 666 well when we showed that we could use it to advantage.

  On 21/11/2019 at 11:21, rjay said:

666 only effected a very small percentage of game time.

...but thinking back it actually won us the GC game.

We openend up our forward half, got a quick clearance and a lucky point.

Wouldn't have happened under the old rules.

I don't understand why we didn't learn our lesson then.

Apart from this one do or die incident we never seemed set up our forward structure to advantage of the rule.

It wasn't that hard really...

I would like to know why we didn't handle 666 well when we showed that we could use it to advantage.

Seriously rjay who's going to read anything you write when they have to get past your avatar first. What a gatekeeper.

  On 20/11/2019 at 22:08, Lucifer's Hero said:

I've seen barely a handful of people on DL say we didn't have an interrupted pre-season.  Quite the contrary.  Many just take a more balanced view.

The charts Mahoney put up on injuries were but a part of a much bigger picture.  So one needs to be careful of overstating their impact. 

The changes made off-field are recognition by the club that it wasn't just injuries/surgeries.  Recognition that there were problems in many parts of our football activities.  The other slides show what the club has addressed.  The ones that stood out to me were (in no particular order):

• Coaching structure.  The structure is excellent (albeit I'm not convinced of all the people in the roles).  It will do a great deal for strategies/tactics, clear, un-conflicted communication to players, their roles and for their development.  In turn this will help with, among other things, ball movement and reduce the confusion and loss of confidence we saw later in the season.
• Improved player role understanding that comes from the first item and other initiatives will be significant for the success of the game plan.  Mahoney referred to the way Richmond players know their role and play their role.  I got the impression we need to do better teaching.
• Football data analysis and meaningful presentation to coaches for strategies and tactics.
• Well being program not just for players but club wide
• Greater investment into medical and fitness
• Change of emphasis on recruiting
• Revisit aspects of the game plan.

These weren't just powerpoint 'words' to appease fans at the forum.  The club has been very thorough in its club review and taken action on each and every one and has programs in place.  All credit to them.

Some people still think our 17th position was due to surgeries and injuries while making mere passing reference to 'other issues'.  By its actions the club is saying that injuries/surgeries were significant but there were bigger issues at play as evidenced by the overhaul I've summarised above. 

In fact, Mahoney and Goodwin virtually said we dropped the ball.  Making the prelim had people (club, players, coaches) thinking it was just a few steps to a GF and then perhaps a premiership.  This caused the club to lose sight of the 'fundamentals' (their word).  My description of that while it might be provocative, is 'hubris'.

Goodwin mentioned that after round 22 they did a 'dump' (his word) with the players where they laid everything on the table.  You can bet the players and coaches weren't blaming injuries/surgeries for being 17th.

I think its time fans move on from believing injuries/surgeries were the problem in 2019.  The other issues collectively were much much bigger otherwise the club wouldn't be changing so much of its operations.

Injuries weren't the reason we dropped out of top 4 but they were a reason we finished 17th. They made a poor season a terrible season.

Did anyone have any questions or were comments made about our investment in data analytics or player psychology? A lot has been made of the mindfulness work done by Richmond and I think it's something our players would really benefit from particularly having a relatively young group.

  On 19/11/2019 at 22:02, binman said:

On the number of games omac plays happy to take bets, with choice of avatar the stake. Which if I win will be a picture of omac. 

I'll take you up on this friendly wager bin. 

We can split it down the middle if you fancy - the majority of games or otherwise?

With pay-out from the time the outcome is clear to the end of the trade/draft period in 2020.

If I lose (because of Goodwin's stubbornness), I'll paste an over-sized Oscar head onto my existing avatar.

You lose and you and switch to a picture of Oscar the Grouch in a bin, with Omac's head. 

Deal? 

  On 21/11/2019 at 18:01, Dr. Gonzo said:

Injuries weren't the reason we dropped out of top 4 but they were a reason we finished 17th. They made a poor season a terrible season.

Did anyone have any questions or were comments made about our investment in data analytics or player psychology? A lot has been made of the mindfulness work done by Richmond and I think it's something our players would really benefit from particularly having a relatively young group.

I might just mention that Mahoney put up a number of charts that were not about 2019 injuries/surgeries.  They were on Lessons Learnt, Actions for 2020, Programs etc.  I complement the club for identifying many other problem areas and not just excuse the year as injury and surgery issues (which undoubtedly had a significant impact).

Good questions, Dr G.

On data analytics.  Pert said as part of the review they engaged a consultant data analytics group (sorry, didn't get the name) that benchmarked us on a range of measures. 

Putting on my Management Consultant hat, they would have identified where we are falling behind and driven a number of initiatives and changes.  I like that there was some 'science' behind the changes made and not just 'gut feel'.  Without the science we could have ended up with 'knee jerk' reactions rather than a clear direction and planned programs.  I'd expect Pert will have the benchmarking redone at certain intervals to measure the impact of changes.

Also, on Mahoney's 'Progams' chart was:  "Data Focus across all departments.  New role:  Data Scientist".  He talked to the need for meaningful information so this would be Younger's role.  I think other resouces have been added in this area. 

A question was asked on player mental health thru this disappointing year.  Mahoney acknowledged how difficult it was and his earlier 'Programs' chart showed:  'New Leadership and Wellness Programs'.  iirc he said they believed these would give us a competitive advantage.  Pert added that the wellness program would be club-wide as non-football staff had to deal with many difficult issues especially when we aren't performing well.  There wasn't time for detail but I had the impression it was being treated seriously.

If I have time I'll go back and listen to the presentations and fill in some gaps.

Edited November 21, 20195 yr by Lucifer's Hero

  On 21/11/2019 at 21:54, Lucifer's Hero said:

I might just mention that Mahoney put up a number of charts that were not about 2019 injuries/surgeries.  They were on Lessons Learnt, Actions for 2020, Programs etc.  I complement the club for identifying many other problem areas and not just excuse the year as injury and surgery issues (which undoubtedly had a significant impact).

Good questions, Dr G.

On data analytics.  Pert said as part of the review they engaged a consultant data analytics group (sorry, didn't get the name) that benchmarked us on a range of measures. 

Putting on my Management Consultant hat, they would have identified where we are falling behind and driven a number of initiatives and changes.  I like that there was some 'science' behind the changes made and not just 'gut feel'.  Without the science we could have ended up with 'knee jerk' reactions rather than a clear direction and planned programs.  I'd expect Pert will have the benchmarking redone at certain intervals to measure the impact of changes.

Also, on Mahoney's 'Progams' chart was:  "Data Focus across all departments.  New role:  Data Scientist".  He talked to the need for meaningful information so this would be Younger's role.  I think other resouces have been added in this area. 

A question was asked on player mental health thru this disappointing year.  Mahoney acknowledged how difficult it was and his earlier 'Programs' chart showed:  'New Leadership and Wellness Programs'.  iirc he said they believed these would give us a competitive advantage.  Pert added that the wellness program would be club-wide as non-football staff had to deal with many difficult issues especially when we aren't performing well.  There wasn't time for detail but I had the impression it was being treated seriously.

If I have time I'll go back and listen to the presentations and fill in some gaps.

Thanks for the response mate.

Interestingly in today's Sun it states that all clubs have to spend a mandatory minimum of $250k on mental health programs in 2020 up on $125k in 2019. I think it said up to $450k could be spent on this outside the FD soft cap? Could've got that wrong though.

  On 21/11/2019 at 01:28, SFebes said:

I'm surprised Norm Smith wasn't mentioned as a reason?

Calling SWYL ...

I am surprised Jack Watts wasnt mentioned.

  On 21/11/2019 at 21:54, Lucifer's Hero said:

I might just mention that Mahoney put up a number of charts that were not about 2019 injuries/surgeries.  They were on Lessons Learnt, Actions for 2020, Programs etc.  I complement the club for identifying many other problem areas and not just excuse the year as injury and surgery issues (which undoubtedly had a significant impact).

Good questions, Dr G.

On data analytics.  Pert said as part of the review they engaged a consultant data analytics group (sorry, didn't get the name) that benchmarked us on a range of measures. 

Putting on my Management Consultant hat, they would have identified where we are falling behind and driven a number of initiatives and changes.  I like that there was some 'science' behind the changes made and not just 'gut feel'.  Without the science we could have ended up with 'knee jerk' reactions rather than a clear direction and planned programs.  I'd expect Pert will have the benchmarking redone at certain intervals to measure the impact of changes.

Also, on Mahoney's 'Progams' chart was:  "Data Focus across all departments.  New role:  Data Scientist".  He talked to the need for meaningful information so this would be Younger's role.  I think other resouces have been added in this area. 

A question was asked on player mental health thru this disappointing year.  Mahoney acknowledged how difficult it was and his earlier 'Programs' chart showed:  'New Leadership and Wellness Programs'.  iirc he said they believed these would give us a competitive advantage.  Pert added that the wellness program would be club-wide as non-football staff had to deal with many difficult issues especially when we aren't performing well.  There wasn't time for detail but I had the impression it was being treated seriously.

If I have time I'll go back and listen to the presentations and fill in some gaps.

Don't worry, you can always count on data to get you out of a sticky mess.

Edited November 22, 20195 yr by Ugottobekidding
Missing apostrophe

  On 21/11/2019 at 09:28, Diamond_Jim said:

Interesting to see that Liverpool's new training facility is costed at much the same as Hawthorn's.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2019/nov/20/liverpool-hope-50m-kirkby-training-facility-will-inspire-academy-players

"Liverpool are on course for next summer’s move to a new £50m training facility in Kirkby that manager Jürgen Klopp believes will inspire the club’s academy prospects in their pursuit of a first team place. "

Does that mean Liverpool has as many problem gamblers that the Hawks have their hooks into in their gaming venues.

Needed to fund this giant facility, sadly.

  On 23/11/2019 at 00:39, Demon17 said:

Does that mean Liverpool has as many problem gamblers that the Hawks have their hooks into in their gaming venues.

Needed to fund this giant facility, sadly.

Profiting from addiction D17. If we take away that gambling has been legalised by the government then it is no better than selling ice on the street. 

  On 23/11/2019 at 00:54, old dee said:

Profiting from addiction D17. If we take away that gambling has been legalised by the government then it is no better than selling ice on the street. 

Interesting documentary I saw about selling ice on the street. Has parallels with our 2019 season too.

Selling ice on the street, with a twist