Jack Viney's Kicking

[Lord Nev 13,512]

Some of you have probably already got sick of my posts about this issue, but I feel like it's reached a point now that it needs a singular focus. For all the whacks Jones seems to cop, Viney has avoided criticism somewhat, perhaps due to his surname and his hardness at the contest (which we all love). The fact remains however, that our co-captain is one of the worst kicks in the league in a team crying out for some leadership as far as providing an example of good delivery going forward.

The AFL average for kick inside 50 retention (which basically measures the effectiveness of delivery forward) is 46%. As of the most recent reportings* of this stat we are at 41% which puts us 3rd worst in the league. Gus and Clarry are both poor, and well below average, at 33% and 30% respectively, but Viney has gone at a staggeringly bad 24%. This means less than 1 in 4 of his kicks are actually going anywhere near one of our own players. *Source

In the round 9 game v West Coast, Hurn and McGovern combined for double figures in marks directly from Jack Viney kicks.

According to stats released today* we rank as the worst in the league for kicks inside 50 (not a surprise) and 11th for kicks overall. In the "kick rating" stats Viney is rated at -11.4%, which puts him at 508th in the league. 508th. The co-captain, and midfield leader responsible for providing an example of how we should be delivering the ball forward, is 508th in the league. *Source

I know there's endless talk about how we need outside run and skill, but adding 1 or 2 (if we're lucky) players in to aid that weakness will not have much of an impact if we have this kind of a performance from our midfield leader.

So my questions are:

Given this is a continuing problem, is it a reflection of his limitations as a player, or is he operating as the coach wishes?

Visually it appears to be more about decision making, but could his foot problems be effecting this?

With Jones likely to not be a co-captain next year (in one way or another), do we make a player who reflects our faults so majorly the sole captain?

And of course, how do we address and fix it as a club?

This isn't to slam Viney, he's easily one of my favourite players in his consistent intent and unmatched toughness, but it's clearly a big issue for us as a team.

 

[McQueen 17,865]

How do his other years measure up to put this season in context?

To be fair, the game plan this year has caused some of the best distributors to look ordinary. 

He’s probably just “playing his role.”

[chook fowler 19,459]

i think the club needs to point an optometrist - the whole team seems to have problems picking out the right option. 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

4 minutes ago, McQueen said:

How do his other years measure up to put this season in context?

To be fair, the game plan this year has caused some of the best distributors to look ordinary. 

He’s probably just “playing his role.”

I'm not sure on his individual numbers for that stat for previous years, it's not one that is generally available, seems to more pop up when articles are written and it's published. I'm assuming, but would guess it has gone down this year given it's being reported now, and also due to us as a team taking nose dives in those kind of stats. Anecdotally it did seem like his delivery was poor last year, but not to the extent it has been this year.

[dpositive 1,665]

Great work LordNev.

If this data is available to you, coaches should also have it. We are all aware of this action but I did not know my observation was so supported by fact.  

Do his kicks fall short or are they longer than other entries. More analysis may be worthwhile.

The question is what to do, get Viney to dish the ball off, get someone to protect him with a shepherd, ( a better balance and more time for accurate delivery), get forwards to respond differently when Jack distributes. Perhaps if he sews to the left then forwards move that way.

keep up the good work. 

[dpositive 1,665]

In last Sews should be slews sorry.

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

Interesting to see his efficiency over the last month. To me his kicking has been a lot better in that period.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

7 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Interesting to see his efficiency over the last month. To me his kicking has been a lot better in that period.

Not sure on the inside 50 retention stat over that course of time, but over the last month he's averaged 4.75 turnovers per game, which means 1 in ever 5.7 disposals is a turnover in that time. He's had much higher numbers disposal wise over the last month.

The closest we can get potentially would be that he's had 3 goal assists out of 15 inside 50s.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Lord Nev

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,808]

I've noticed that Viney is using his right foot to kick more often than he used to. I don't know if this is contributing in a material way to his poor disposal efficiency numbers but I would encourage him to keep doing so. The more he does it, the better he will get, not just at using his right foot, but also at the amount he can contribute to the team. When he was solely a left-foot distributor, he kept getting caught trying to get onto his left.

[dpositive 1,665]

1 minute ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I've noticed that Viney is using his right foot to kick more often than he used to. I don't know if this is contributing in a material way to his poor disposal efficiency numbers but I would encourage him to keep doing so. The more he does it, the better he will get, not just at using his right foot, but also at the amount he can contribute to the team. When he was solely a left-foot distributor, he kept getting caught trying to get onto his left.

Another great observation that can be backed up by data analysis. Hope the coaches are on to it.

The response is that this encouragement should be concentrated on at training.  Alternatives are for others to protect him and allow him to get on left or for patterns to be established for left foot delivery. Game time is not the best place to experiment with these changes.

 

[Bring-Back-Powell 14,846]

Aside from his ordinary kicking, he's pleasingly back to some good form to the point where he was in the best 5 players on the ground on Sunday. Also looks to be moving much better.

 

[Smokey 4,389]

I think the club has backed themselves into a dark corner with the Viney captaincy. I've said it before, the attributes he brings from a leadership perspective was exactly what the team needed at the time he was appointed - leadership through strength around the contest. As more and more players have been added to the list that also bring this, Viney has become increasingly irrelevant. He's a one trick pony - see ball get ball. That's where it ends unfortunately, and therein lies our current problem. 

I'm a big fan of Viney, and I will always see him as a spiritual leader for the club, but I really wish he wasn't a captain. His footy IQ simply isn't high enough to lead by example in the areas we desperately need right now. 

If it were up to me - I'd pull the trigger immediately at seasons end and replace Jones with Lever as co-captain. It's too late to demote Viney, because the optics on that are horrific - but what we can do is replace Jones with an actual leader across all facets of leadership, and that has to be Lever. A case can be made for Gawn too, but he isn't the on field general that Lever is, and that's exactly what we need right now with Lewis on his way out.  

 

[Cam Schwab's Whiteboard 209]

Good work @Lord Nev

I'm not as concerned with Viney's kicking as I am with the fact that inefficiency and inaccuracy has spread throughout the team like wildfire. Jack has his limitations and will never be Salem or Watts when disposing of the ball, but I think his positives far outweigh those limitations. I too would like to see how this year's kicking looks in comparison to previous years, and last year in particular.

Ultimately, Viney is an inside midfielder who will win us the ball, and win it back if we lose it. He will only ever be an average kick, and will often be disposing of it in traffic and under pressure simply due to the role he plays. My concern is that the way the team plays means that all players are kicking from and into traffic, which makes things that much harder. Oliver and Brayshaw are good kicks, particularly the former, as is Jones. The problem I see is that they are never in a position of space to be able to execute as well as they should. The forward line is a horror show, and I don't think anyone apart from Salem and Melksham (with apologies to a couple of others) are going to have much to work with when kicking it in.

Should the club do a better job of constructing the way the ball moves down the field, as opposed to ramming it through, I think a lot of the disposal issues will clean up.

 

[Ouch! 2,263]

Posted on a different thread about this same Data fromt he AFL site.... interesting that the move to half back has seen Nathan Jones actually become the most effective kick (using this same stat) in the team for those players who have kicked more than 100 times this season. That's ahead of Salem and Fritsch who we all know have good skills.

I know that Viney and Clarry both play inside mid and they typically throw the ball onto their boot and that impacts this stat somewhat, but they need to work on executing kicks better under pressure, and often they seem to have more time than they realise...

[Lord Nev 13,512]

11 minutes ago, Bring-Back-Powell said:

Aside from his ordinary kicking, he's pleasingly back to some good form to the point where he was in the best 5 players on the ground on Sunday. Also looks to be moving much better.

He's definitely got a bit of his 'burst' back. Have noticed he's more able to break away from congestion lately.

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

1 hour ago, Lord Nev said:

Not sure on the inside 50 retention stat over that course of time, but over the last month he's averaged 4.75 turnovers per game, which means 1 in ever 5.7 disposals is a turnover in that time. He's had much higher numbers disposal wise over the last month.

The closest we can get potentially would be that he's had 3 goal assists out of 15 inside 50s.

Apologies for the slight sidetrack, I also touched on this on another thread. Do you think we should still target Hill and/or Langdon? We are lamenting poor kicking skills and those two aren’t rated highly either according to the article.

[picket fence 17,172]

I have said it before Viney is a limited footballer and this is an example!

[Nelo 813]

His kicking isn’t great just like a lot of other players in the team. If you can’t pin point a target at least kick to an advantage and give the forward some chance. Rather than favouring the opponent and giving the forward no opportunity. 

[poita 3,902]

Viney's biggest problem this year has been his obsession with trying to break tackles or bust through packs of players. In these circumstances, if he doesn't get caught holding the ball, he is inevitably going to kick off balance and under pressure.

That said, I thought Sunday's game was his best for the year and I'm not sure that he got caught holding the ball at all. Perhaps the penny has finally dropped.

[Wells 11 5,406]

Are our fwd entries only as bad as the fwds capacity to create space? The fact that we sacked our fwd coach mid season might answer that. However there’s ALSO been an obvious and alarming drop off in skills. Obvious all over the field, in our fwd 50, and in front of goal. So being fair , Vineys shocking efficiency rate may be a mix of his own poor skill, our set ups and the situations he’s getting the ball in. . But In someways he’s become symptomatic of the whole team... win the hard ball , turn it over and watch the opposition run riot with us on the rebound. 

The big question that’s raised here imo is should  he remain captain or co captain next year? For mine he can’t keep the position. Maybe you have him co captain with someone else next year. But, whether it’s a chronic foot, or low skills he just isn’t an onfield leader in any other dept except guts. I, as do many,  love him fr that ... but this team is crying out for structural awareness on field and I don’t see him as a leader here. 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

16 minutes ago, Wells 11 said:

Are our fwd entries only as bad as the fwds capacity to create space? The fact that we sacked our fwd coach mid season might answer that. However there’s ALSO been an obvious and alarming drop off in skills. Obvious all over the field, in our fwd 50, and in front of goal. So being fair , Vineys shocking efficiency rate may be a mix of his own poor skill, our set ups and the situations he’s getting the ball in. . But In someways he’s become symptomatic of the whole team... win the hard ball , turn it over and watch the opposition run riot with us on the rebound. 

The big question that’s raised here imo is should  he remain captain or co captain next year? For mine he can’t keep the position. Maybe you have him co captain with someone else next year. But, whether it’s a chronic foot, or low skills he just isn’t an onfield leader in any other dept except guts. I, as do many,  love him fr that ... but this team is crying out for structural awareness on field and I don’t see him as a leader here. 

Forward structure is definitely part of the problem, clearly when you're changing up the coaching so drastically. Weid and TMac often seem to fly for the same ball, but I wonder again if that's a coaching issue in regards to our game style?

The thing is, the kick rating stat takes situation and pressure into account:

Kick rating takes into account the difficulty of a player's kick and attributes an expected percentage for any player to successfully hit a target in various scenarios. A zero per cent rating means the footballer is performing as expected.

Source

So Viney being 508 out of the 526 players with the metrics assigned, is a horrible look in that context.

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

1 hour ago, Smokey said:

 

If it were up to me - I'd pull the trigger immediately at seasons end and replace Jones with Lever as co-captain. It's too late to demote Viney, because the optics on that are horrific - but what we can do is replace Jones with an actual leader across all facets of leadership, and that has to be Lever. A case can be made for Gawn too, but he isn't the on field general that Lever is, and that's exactly what we need right now with Lewis on his way out.  

 

Does this mean we are stuck with Viney as Captain for the next 10 years. Both Viney and Jones should lose the Captaincy on the performance of this year. 

Why, simply because they are not up to the task....

We will finish this season in 17th position, unless there is a minor miracle. 

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 hour ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Apologies for the slight sidetrack, I also touched on this on another thread. Do you think we should still target Hill and/or Langdon? We are lamenting poor kicking skills and those two aren’t rated highly either according to the article.

As far as I've heard we're into Langdon in a big way, also keen on Hill but doesn't seem as likely. Obviously we'd all prefer some genuine pacy wingers who are fantastic kicks, but I guess you have to settle for what's realistically available at some stage.

[Lucifers Hero 39,872]

Viney was a 'captains call' by Goodwin and if ircc he didn't consult the players, advise the existing captain and don't think he consulted the CEO or the Board. 

Viney will be a capt/co-capt for as long as his father and Goodwin are at the club.  Todd and Simon are very good mates.  Afterall, Todd recommended Simon for coach.  And they are good mates with Mahoney. 

So any impetus for change needs to come from someone else which I just don't see happening. 

A real leader as co-capt is the best we can hope for.  Let Viney do his 'beast' thing, retain the title but someone else with an IQ does the footy thinking and media parts.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Lucifer's Hero

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

So you don't think Jack knows how awful his kicking is , and knows that stats, and knows how ordinary he is, and tries to fix it, but can't because he is well, simply limited. 

I agree with what @Smokey says, a one trick pony who's work ethic was great/what we needed 4 years ago, and now is superseded by more talented players... this is what SHOULD happen of course. 

Sometimes you get appointed to your 'position of  incompetence'... and whilst Im not saying he isn't a leader, I guess the club understand he is a 'spiritual leader' who lacks polish and class when delivering the pill. That of course, may be fine within the playing group itself, but looks ugly for what spectators/supporters want.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Engorged Onion