POSTGAME: Rd17 vs Bulldogs

[beelzebub 23,370]

Food for thought... all discussion of players as such aside. Imagine if we went into games with a coherent sensibility about forward entries and structures.. we plainly and obviously have neither currently

We could have won yesterday...all it needed was to stop bombing away and actually enter the 5o intelligently. How many times was that kick to a contest 15-20(out)  just so unnecessary.

I think I have an idea though why this happens...we have so many who cant kick a bloody football straight more than 40m !!

Edited July 14, 2019 by beelzebub

[Dee Watcher 71]

Is it desperate coaching/selection to bring in Jetta and Lever at this point of the year? 

Surely getting them cherry ripe for next year would be the main aim rather than forcing them to play off very limited preparation.

We should be shutting guys down early to get surgery and have them right for 2020...seems like the coaching box/selection committee are protecting themselves rather than looking at the greater good.

 

[ArtificialWisdom 4,045]

12 hours ago, bringbackthebiff said:

One thing I hate is a forward giving high fives after a mark in the forward line. Trac did it in the last quarter then predictably misses the goal. High fives are after you kick the goal!!

Trac's personality lends itself to criticism. Whenever he plays well everyone will laud his positivity. But when he makes mistakes he'll be  criticised for being arrogant. 

Trac has a set shot problem, I don't care what he does before he kicks, he's probably going to miss it regardless. He could do a handstand at the top of his run up for all I care. He's gonna miss anyway, I was more concerned that the zone wasn't set up properly and the dogs were able to go coast to coast almost completely uncontested.

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,824]

I really don't understand the Gawn ruck free kick, but we received a pretty soft on at the other end that Petty goaled from, so I'm not going to sook on forever about that one free kick.  I actually thought the umpiring in the last quarter against Carlton last week was way worse.

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,824]

I can't defend either Hannan or ABN's games yesterday, although I would say over the past 4 weeks I have thought Hannan has been OK and I thought his 2 goal effort against the Lions was pretty good.  At times over the past 4 weeks, I have thought Hannan was running himself into some form, but yesterday's game goes against that.

To be totally honest, I'm not sure that Kyle Dunckley is exactly getting games on merit at the moment either.  Sure I have seen him doing a few smart things that show he could be a decient prospect in seasons to come, but too little output overall from his games thus far for me.  Guys like Spargo have been criticized on this forum and dropped from the side after showing a lot more than Dunkley has to date in my assessment.  That said I'm not totally against us getting a few senior games into some of these guys in our present position, but it is hardly ideal.

[buck_nekkid 5,858]

Did you notice the handball that Gus received from Clarry before he got run down in the tackle?  It was a looping, slow handball that Gus had to check his pace to receive, opening the way to be caught by Dunkley.  If Clarry had put a bullet handball and Gus could run onto it, there would have been no tackle, and probably a goal.  It is a million moments like these that are costing us in every game.  Like the bomb kicks into forward 50, like the way we get sucked en masse into contests and the opposition run around the outside, those over-the-head-to-no one handballs, the giraffe kicks not to advantage.....We are putting in loads of effort, but it must be so disheartening when stupid errors make it meaningless.

[buck_nekkid 5,858]

16 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

I really don't understand the Gawn ruck free kick, but we received a pretty soft on at the other end that Petty goaled from, so I'm not going to sook on forever about that one free kick.  I actually thought the umpiring in the last quarter against Carlton last week was way worse.

Agreed.  I thought we were going to be stitched up with the inconsistency in the holding the ball decisions in the first quarter, but there were poor decisions across the park.  The Gawn/Dunkley one was incomprehensible, so it drew attention.  But Kyle Dunkley’s mark (paid by the umpire further away) would have had us all howling if it was paid to the opposition.  The Umpiring did not cost us this game.  We did 

[bringbackthebiff 654]

23 minutes ago, ArtificialWisdom said:

Trac's personality lends itself to criticism. Whenever he plays well everyone will laud his positivity. But when he makes mistakes he'll be  criticised for being arrogant. 

Trac has a set shot problem, I don't care what he does before he kicks, he's probably going to miss it regardless. He could do a handstand at the top of his run up for all I care. He's gonna miss anyway, I was more concerned that the zone wasn't set up properly and the dogs were able to go coast to coast almost completely uncontested.

Fair enough. I’m still slightly concerned he can’t convert easy set shots. 

Kick the goal and then you don’t need to set up zones...

[sue 9,104]

26 minutes ago, Dee Watcher said:

Is it desperate coaching/selection to bring in Jetta and Lever at this point of the year? 

Surely getting them cherry ripe for next year would be the main aim rather than forcing them to play off very limited preparation.

We should be shutting guys down early to get surgery and have them right for 2020...seems like the coaching box/selection committee are protecting themselves rather than looking at the greater good.

 

On the other hand, as long as the risk of injury is not higher than normal, there is a lot to be said for them spending as much time as possible playing together before 2020.  Cohesion.  Do either of those two need surgery?  

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Every player that is fit and available must play

To shut down several players now smacks of old Skool culture

Every player will have 6 months to recover when the season is done and dusted

[beelzebub 23,370]

If a player is technically  fit...but obviously  not anywhere  near that needed to perform with ability and effect. Why play them ? Its a nonsense

Gus maybe able to play.  All we get is a shell of the real player. That's  clever ?

[Wiseblood 24,637]

9 hours ago, loges said:

Wish you and Prodee were back full time. Sick of listening to the perennialy negative.

It's tough at the moment.  If we're being honest we are an average side that is playing some pretty average footy.  After last season it can be a bitter pill to swallow.

However, this is not 2013.  This is not a list where we are going 'who are the good players and how the hell are we going to improve?'  This is a list that has been smashed from pillar to post and we've never really gotten out of the starting gate.

Look at the side we had in yesterday.  We are still missing some quality players - Tom Mac, Jake Melksham, Vanders and Marty Hore come to mind.  We have players who had off season surgery and it took them weeks to get going.  We still have players in the side who have had long stints on the sidelines and are clearly down on fitness and form (Lever, Jetta, Hannan etc.).  We are also playing blokes who are showing something but don't have the consistency to perform week in, week out (Petty, Lockhart, Dunkley, Preuss).  Then, on top of that, we are forced to play blokes who are either on their last legs (Jones, Lewis) or who shouldn't have any business being in the side to begin with (ANB).

Add it all up and you get the season we're having.  To me it's an anomaly - we have been building well since 2015.  It's not as if we stunk it up and then pulled 2018 out of the bag.  It's been quite the opposite.  There are clear reasons why this season has been a failure, but this time we have the personnel to turn it around quickly.  We aren't relying on a Matt Jones or Dean Terlich to finish Top 5 in our B&F.  

Not only that, but the holes in our side are clear - we could use more support for Tom Mac up forward, although the hope is that Weideman kicks on in 2020, and we know that we need some small forwards to support that.  We could also use a little more pace in midfield.  But these are fixable issues if we make the right moves.  We don't have 5 or 6 half decent players and the rest are terrible.  That couldn't be further from the truth.

Again, this season has been tough to watch, but it's not the end of the world.  Far from it.  We can turn things around very quickly IF we do the right things over pre-season, such as who we draft and trade in to the club, and hopefully we don't have another awful run with injuries.  I have no doubt that we'll bounce back in 2020.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

6 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

Every player that is fit and available must play

To shut down several players now smacks of old Skool culture

Every player will have 6 months to recover when the season is done and dusted

Goodwin said, I believe in his press conference, that he will be picking sides to win games for the rest of the season.  And so he should.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,215]

I've been a supporter but ANB is useless at the moment. Terrible disposal, not a quick thinker and constantly putting teammates under pressure. Depth player at best at the moment.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

3 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

If a player is technically  fit...but obviously  not anywhere  near that needed to perform with ability and effect. Why play them ? Its a nonsense

Gus maybe able to play.  All we get is a shell of the real player. That's  clever ?

Then he plays in the Magoos BB...

[Engorged Onion 10,215]

5 minutes ago, Wiseblood said:

It's tough at the moment.  If we're being honest we are an average side that is playing some pretty average footy.  After last season it can be a bitter pill to swallow.

However, this is not 2013.  This is not a list where we are going 'who are the good players and how the hell are we going to improve?'  This is a list that has been smashed from pillar to post and we've never really gotten out of the starting gate.

Look at the side we had in yesterday.  We are still missing some quality players - Tom Mac, Jake Melksham, Vanders and Marty Hore come to mind.  We have players who had off season surgery and it took them weeks to get going.  We still have players in the side who have had long stints on the sidelines and are clearly down on fitness and form (Lever, Jetta, Hannan etc.).  We are also playing blokes who are showing something but don't have the consistency to perform week in, week out (Petty, Lockhart, Dunkley, Preuss).  Then, on top of that, we are forced to play blokes who are either on their last legs (Jones, Lewis) or who shouldn't have any business being in the side to begin with (ANB).

Add it all up and you get the season we're having.  To me it's an anomaly - we have been building well since 2015.  It's not as if we stunk it up and then pulled 2018 out of the bag.  It's been quite the opposite.  There are clear reasons why this season has been a failure, but this time we have the personnel to turn it around quickly.  We aren't relying on a Matt Jones or Dean Terlich to finish Top 5 in our B&F.  

Not only that, but the holes in our side are clear - we could use more support for Tom Mac up forward, although the hope is that Weideman kicks on in 2020, and we know that we need some small forwards to support that.  We could also use a little more pace in midfield.  But these are fixable issues if we make the right moves.  We don't have 5 or 6 half decent players and the rest are terrible.  That couldn't be further from the truth.

Again, this season has been tough to watch, but it's not the end of the world.  Far from it.  We can turn things around very quickly IF we do the right things over pre-season, such as who we draft and trade in to the club, and hopefully we don't have another awful run with injuries.  I have no doubt that we'll bounce back in 2020.

I dont know you, but I missed you 

[beelzebub 23,370]

9 minutes ago, jumbo returns said:

Then he plays in the Magoos BB...

or...doesnt play at all and goes into rehab ??

[poita 3,902]

Forget the final margin, that was as bad as we have played since probably the GWS game. The Dogs gave us every chance to win that game and we still couldn't do it. 

Goodwin had another shocking day in the box. I get that he can't play for the players and he is limited somewhat by the players available to him (although our abysmal depth is certainly his responsibility after four years running the show (three as senior coach). However he just lets us down in the same ways each and every week:

• playing unfit players (definitely Jetta, and probably Lever as well (zero touches in second half)
• playing his favourites regardless of form (Hannan (3 touches), Hibberd
• being slow to make obvious changes (Fritsch forward, May forward)
• or missing changes completely (Harmes to Dunkley or Bontempelli, Gawn playing from goal square)
• terrible game plan and game style

I thought Viney was good, Salem and May solid, Petty a clear positive and Petracca good for 3 quarters. Gawn was okay, but probably underachieved given the opposition.

I didn't notice Oliver except for when he stuffed up a certain goal in the 2nd, Brayshaw was awful. Hannan was invisible (read: lazy) yet again; Dunkley not much better. Neal-Bullen has no skills and no goal sense. Preuss was poor forward and in the middle - he still should go to Alice Springs, but only because WC have two strong rucks. Jetta continued his miserable season and needed at least two more weeks in the VFL. Lever is hugely overrated (see first Dogs goal as example #1) and Hibberd is pretty much done. Jones was terrible.

I rarely mention the umpires, and they certainly didn't affect the result, but they were truly awful both ways yesterday.

[Nasher 33,616]

1 hour ago, pitmaster said:

A close loss like this one can make you lose context so here's some balance: we went into this game without a key forward and relying on a 7-game novice defender to substitute for a 150 defender-turned-forward who had just struck from the previous two weeks. Our developing forward was also missing taking out seven goals form last week's total.

Our defence looked good on paper but Lever and Jetta, Nev especially, were underdone. Criticism of their selection is misplaced however. They are part of our long term backline and the sooner they are alongside May and Hibberd to develop an understanding on one another's games the better for next year and beyond. We need them playing together. That was as bad as Nev has ever been but his upside will come with match fitness.

Despite some absolutely horrendous umpiring decisions that hurt us we were right in this game. Fritsch (and May) cost us with that last quarter miss but his snaps earlier gave us two goals of a sort we have not been able to find this year. The sooner he is released forward the better. May's determination to take the game on late was brilliant despite his missed shot. He is going to be great value.

And finally, we were playing the Dogs who have finals pretensions (probably misplaced) on their preferred deck. Play that elsewhere and umpiring included we still win. They will point to their third quarter misses for what might have been but we matched them for that by game's end. 

There was more to like about that game than dislike given our injuries and underdone returning players. Come draft time we might reckon it's a good one to lose although I can see the Blues having only two more wins - the Suns and Saints.

I think you mean “rah rah rebuild! Herp derp sack Goodwin! It’s not possible to draw positives when you’re at the arse end of the ladder!” RAGE POLLYANNA!!!

Seriously though, excellent post. 

[Rodney (Balls) Grinter 10,824]

14 minutes ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I've been a supporter but ANB is useless at the moment. Terrible disposal, not a quick thinker and constantly putting teammates under pressure. Depth player at best at the moment.

Agree.

Last year when he (and the rest of the team) were in form, he was better than just depth though.  These calls to trade him are grossly wrong though IMHO:

1.  Trading him now would be like trading him out at the bottom of the market value;

2.  What would we get for him?  A pick in the 60s?  Best case scenario would be that he could be a sweetener to go along with us trading out a decient draft pick for a player like Langdon.

3.  In a season where we have been exposed for depth, doesn't that highlight the need to actually have it.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Rodney (Balls) Grinter

[DubDee 25,860]

Weed would be copping it on here if he put a one mark game like Pruess did under the roof. 

Maybe we are seeing why Pruess hasn’t been selected earlier. A work in progress. 

[Nasher 33,616]

1 minute ago, DubDee said:

Weed would be copping it on here if he put a one mark game like Pruess did under the roof. 

Maybe we are seeing why Pruess hasn’t been selected earlier. A work in progress. 

I counted three marks Preuss dropped that he had clean hands on. He’s almost there, but he’s not there yet. Also, Gawn was ineffective when not in the ruck, so in effect by playing both, we’re robbing Peter to invest in virtual currency. 

I’d drop Preuss for the time being. The clear focus for him is to work on his marking - around the ground and when sneaking forward. It’s what he needs to be able to do if he wants to ruck in tandem with Gawn in the long run.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

13 minutes ago, beelzebub said:

or...doesnt play at all and goes into rehab ??

For what?

Petulance?

Sulks?

He's clearly not that injured....

[beelzebub 23,370]

39 minutes ago, Nasher said:

I counted three marks Preuss dropped that he had clean hands on. He’s almost there, but he’s not there yet. Also, Gawn was ineffective when not in the ruck, so in effect by playing both, we’re robbing Peter to invest in virtual currency. 

I’d drop Preuss for the time being. The clear focus for him is to work on his marking - around the ground and when sneaking forward. It’s what he needs to be able to do if he wants to ruck in tandem with Gawn in the long run.

Or leave him right there and allow him to grow into the shared role . It might take a little while to gel. We're not robbing anyone at the moment...except supporters...robbing them blind.

Here we can have real time experience for the dynamic duo.. we're not going to be doing much in september are we.

[Lucifers Hero 39,779]

34 minutes ago, Rodney (Balls) Grinter said:

Agree.

Last year when he (and the rest of the team) were in form, he was better than just depth though.  These calls to trade him are grossly wrong though IMHO:

1.  Trading him now would be like trading him out at the bottom of the market value;

2.  What would we get for him?  A pick in the 60s?  Best case scenario would be that he could be a sweetener to go along with us trading out a decient draft pick for a player like Langdon.

3.  In a season where we have been exposed for depth, doesn't that highlight the need to actually have it.

He has one string to his bow (fwd defence ie tackles and 1%) and has been poor in those areas.  His work is having little impact: last year his tackles caused turnovers, this year less so.

His form is concerning as he was not in the 'preseason injury' group and his role does not require particular skills.  He is competing with players like Dunkley, Sparrow, Lockhart, Dunkley, Fritsch for a spot and I can't see ANB being ahead of all of them.  Next year he is likely to be a depth player at best.

For these reasons if/when we trade him it will be 'at the bottom of the market'.

We have/will offer him a contract but it he may get better $/years/senior games elsewhere and we will trade him and like Kent it may well be in the 60's.  Or like Tyson a player who fits our needs better.