8 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Wondering if this is an okay place to talk about Oscar McDonald...? 

Dropping him was a mistake- it could affect his Brownlow votes.

58 minutes ago, P-man said:

And therefore, the amount of faith placed in him was/is an issue. One season was not a sufficient sample size to be placing all our eggs in the T Mac basket.

We did not replace Hogan (along with the multitude of other failings) and we have suffered as a result.

23 goals in not much more than half a season as a ruck/forward covering Gawn in 2017 as well. It was over 2 seasons that he was looking like an excellent forward.

I'm still comfortable with the decision to put the eggs in the McDonald and Weideman basket. It's logical to expect both to improve next year.

If we had kept Hogan with our current forward line struggles I'd imagine he'd be worth nothing more than a mid first round pick as an out of contract player. We also wouldn't have got Steven May, who despite his struggles looks like a very good player. And even if we paid too much for May we wouldn't get nearly the same return as May and a decent pick that became Sparrow for Hogan.

9 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

23 goals in not much more than half a season as a ruck/forward covering Gawn in 2017 as well. It was over 2 seasons that he was looking like an excellent forward.

I'm still comfortable with the decision to put the eggs in the McDonald and Weideman basket. It's logical to expect both to improve next year.

If we had kept Hogan with our current forward line struggles I'd imagine he'd be worth nothing more than a mid first round pick as an out of contract player. We also wouldn't have got Steven May, who despite his struggles looks like a very good player. And even if we paid too much for May we wouldn't get nearly the same return as May and a decent pick that became Sparrow for Hogan.

Granted. Let’s say a season and a half then.

I don’t want to look like a hindsight hero but I was nervous about putting all our chips on T Mac/Weid. Replacing our spearhead with essentially nada, regardless of what we got in return, was asking for trouble.

I also don’t really buy into “Hogan has been average this year anyway” line of thought. He’s had a new team, system and environment to adapt to. Along with the other known mental struggle. Of course it’s taken him a while to settle. I don’t think his value would have depreciated had he stayed at Melbourne. I think it’s more likely than not we’d have a few more wins on the board. He has shortcomings but he remains an attacking weapon.

But spilt milk. Need to focus on how we craft something without him.

8 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Everyone is looking to him to fix the forward line problems

He says clearly what the fix is, which is basically the same one that McCartney alluded to.

Time.

I suggested we sack the assistant coaches recently. Come to think of it why was Rawlings taken away from the forward coaching position in the first place. McCartney made defence coach after being development coach. Why so many coaches in the first place ?. All too weird of a joint the MFC,. With so many coaches , what does Goodwin do , perhaps he doesn't have control. 

2 hours ago, junk said:

I suggested we sack the assistant coaches recently. Come to think of it why was Rawlings taken away from the forward coaching position in the first place. McCartney made defence coach after being development coach. Why so many coaches in the first place ?. All too weird of a joint the MFC,. With so many coaches , what does Goodwin do , perhaps he doesn't have control. 

Or maybe some just aren't very good at what they do or did Junk.  If this second half of the year is also a flop, and im not saying it will be, then we might see a broom through a few at season's end.

I suspect a few that were shifted away from their first half roles wil go anyway, even if we do see turnaround.  No doubt a few players also and a few more if it flops.

Edited June 19, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

18 hours ago, The Chazz said:

You've been carrying on for months about how the board went against Jackson's recommendation on who should replace him, and further to that, have been carrying on about Pert's appointment.

My point is that Pert hasn't appeared to put a foot wrong to date (albeit in less than 12 months), yet Mahoney's responsibility, which he would've been involved in the development of the football department model, has already seen a review and a number of changes made.

In many ways, I see Mahoney's involvement in this mid-season review absolute amateur hour.  So maybe, just maybe the board got the CEO appointment right.  But I don't expect you to agree as it doesn't support your agenda.

Was thinking the same thing, Mahon’s remit is the footy dept (and it never just sits with 1 person), this season been an unmitigated disaster. That’s for Mahn’s to get better at managing. 

18 hours ago, Earl Hood said:

All this is very interesting to me. As I reported on the Monday training thread I had a chat to McCartney, the background is he put his jacket on the fence near me and my wife and quipped he was going to get these guys fired up as he walked out to run a series of drills where he ran them pretty hard and it looked like a good session to me. He then came over to pick up his jacket and his first words were these guys just don’t understand it yet, their young but they have to train harder and stop taking shortcuts, you play how you train, great sides set high standards they have to understand that. 

My take on his comments at the time were that the playing group (and by inference the leading players) is not setting the bar high enough at training, thinking after last year, that it is all just going to happen. 

Given that Macca looks like he has been sidelined, I am thinking his opinion is at odds with the other coaches and it seems the players as he was clearly a bit pizzed off, now I know why. 

 

Would be interesting to come back to this comment/thought/out come for Macca over the next 5 years. Will the players step it up or waste this chance at long term success. 

All the coaching shuffles in the world can’t  lead a player to get the absolute most out of themselves. 

3 hours ago, junk said:

I suggested we sack the assistant coaches recently. Come to think of it why was Rawlings taken away from the forward coaching position in the first place. McCartney made defence coach after being development coach. Why so many coaches in the first place ?. All too weird of a joint the MFC,. With so many coaches , what does Goodwin do , perhaps he doesn't have control. 

He wanted to run casey, he wants an AFL head coaching role and thought he would get more of a look in by running the show. He’s been an assistant for sometime yadda yadda yadda.

No different to what most clubs do at the end of each season in assistant coach changes. Clearly something isn’t right so kudos for the club in making changes now. I still believe though Misson stuffed up the conditioning area.

17 hours ago, Sorry kids said:

Could you elaborate on movement towards setting up a new training base.

No problems.  A new CEO comes in and declares his big ticket item is to build a training and admin base in the one location.  The fact it's on Pert's agenda is a step in the right direction (PJ had bigger fish to fry in his tenure at the club), as these types of CEOs are judged on their results.

If he fails to deliver this promise, quite simply, he will have committed career suicide.

On 6/19/2019 at 9:43 AM, Lord Nev said:

Where did you hear this? And why would Cross stay at the club if this was the case?

 

Personal communication from someone involved. Not at liberty to name but it has been mentioned elsewhere

 

3 hours ago, The Chazz said:

No problems.  A new CEO comes in and declares his big ticket item is to build a training and admin base in the one location.  The fact it's on Pert's agenda is a step in the right direction (PJ had bigger fish to fry in his tenure at the club), as these types of CEOs are judged on their results.

If he fails to deliver this promise, quite simply, he will have committed career suicide.

Which comes from the Board..

4 hours ago, The Chazz said:

No problems.  A new CEO comes in and declares his big ticket item is to build a training and admin base in the one location.  The fact it's on Pert's agenda is a step in the right direction (PJ had bigger fish to fry in his tenure at the club), as these types of CEOs are judged on their results.

If he fails to deliver this promise, quite simply, he will have committed career suicide.

So what movement has been made towards a new base? No communication from the Club at all. No media reporting on any stakeholder or interested parties meeting. Nothing positive from the local community group, Council or State Government.

33 minutes ago, Older demon said:

Personal communication from someone involved. Not at liberty to name but it has been mentioned elsewhere

 

No probs, won't pry, just seems such a strange situation to have two development coaches that seemingly refuse to work together.

 

On 6/19/2019 at 5:58 PM, DeeSpencer said:

- Tom McDonald was the star key forward last year. 50+ goals and got the best defenders.
- Melksham and Petracca were both very good medium options, Joel Smith was shifted forward as another difficult match up
- Hannan, Spargo, ANB did their jobs well and we recruited more small and flanker options

Hogan v top 8 teams last year - 6 games, 8 goals  (3, 1, 2, 0, 1, 1) and 26 marks
Weideman v top 8 teams last year -  6 games, 8 goals (0, 1, 1, 3, 2, 1) and 30 maks

Hogan has had 2 excellent games this year surrounded with a lot of ordinary ones. At this stage he is miles off a once in a generation forward. In fact he has been miles off tracking like that since his first or second season.

The Weid hasn't come on but has shown good signs the last two weeks. There's still good reason for optimism that he becomes a very handy player.

Tom McDonald going from a guy who kicked 53 goals in 20 games to a pumpkin is the real issue.

The entire forward line, aside from a few cameos from Hunt and opportunist goals from Jeffy, is the real issue DS.

Genuine goal kicking KPF & small crumber (or two) needed for 2020 and beyond.

Personally i don't believe either of T-Mac or Weid will be the top end answer either.  Weid the better longer term keeper of the two (just), subject to bringing in a genuine marking/goal kicking key forward to take the No.1 mantle and opp's best defender.

Fix this at the trade table and we just might return to finals at some point in the next year or two.

Don't and we are in for more years bouncing along the bottom or just missing them IMO.

Assuming we get a few wins (3 to 4 or so) in the back half, im hoping Goody (and the entire club) don't get complacent and see this as a sign that the line changes (et al) were the answer & all is rosey and on track for a successful run at 2020 onwards.

I believe they (we) will be sadly disappointed if so and many careers of some very good talented players will again be wasted with yet another rebuild / reno needed afterwards due to a sub-par forward line up that is just incapable of kicking a winning score often enough against quality oppostion.

The premiership window is still slightly ajar for a brief time IF Goody and Co. take a big reality check at year's end, have a super solid draft/trade period and a much needed list review including a significant clean up of some dead wood, especially up forward.  Goody also needs to add a tempo / possession option to the trick bag and dump the 'low/no pressure' forward half zoning insanity IMO.

Some exciting, leading, pack marking forwards & crumbing smalls (with speed/forward pressure) needed!

Lockhart might be one shining light here on the small crumbing side given a few more pre-seasons.

Hannan & Hunt worth another look in 2020 especially Hannan injury free (we hope!).  But both will need a solid season to justify their places beyond that IMHO.

Edited June 20, 20195 yr by Rusty Nails

3 hours ago, Rusty Nails said:

The entire forward line, aside from a few cameos from Hunt and opportunist goals from Jeffy, is the real issue DS.

Genuine goal kicking KPF & small crumber (or two) needed for 2020 and beyond.

Personally i don't believe either of T-Mac or Weid will be the top end answer either.  Weid the better longer term keeper of the two (just), subject to bringing in a genuine marking/goal kicking key forward to take the No.1 mantle and opp's best defender.

Fix this at the trade table and we just might return to finals at some point in the next year or two.

Don't and we are in for more years bouncing along the bottom or just missing them IMO.

Assuming we get a few wins (3 to 4 or so) in the back half, im hoping Goody (and the entire club) don't get complacent and see this as a sign that the line changes (et al) were the answer & all is rosey and on track for a successful run at 2020 onwards.

I believe they (we) will be sadly disappointed if so and many careers of some very good talented players will again be wasted with yet another rebuild / reno needed afterwards due to a sub-par forward line up that is just incapable of kicking a winning score often enough against quality oppostion.

The premiership window is still slightly ajar for a brief time IF Goody and Co. take a big reality check at year's end, have a super solid draft/trade period and a much needed list review including a significant clean up of some dead wood, especially up forward.  Goody also needs to add a tempo / possession option to the trick bag and dump the 'low/no pressure' forward half zoning insanity IMO.

Some exciting, leading, pack marking forwards & crumbing smalls (with speed/forward pressure) needed!

Lockhart might be one shining light here on the small crumbing side given a few more pre-seasons.

Hannan & Hunt worth another look in 2020 especially Hannan injury free (we hope!).  But both will need a solid season to justify their places beyond that IMHO.

What terrifies me if there isn’t any changes to the list, especially the forward line and they blame injuries on the poor year......

Is Bernie Vince still active in his part-time role at the club? Haven’t heard much about him lately. Personally, I’d like to see Bernie involved with the club on a more permanent basis next year. 

4 minutes ago, Dee Zephyr said:

Is Bernie Vince still active in his part-time role at the club? Haven’t heard much about him lately. Personally, I’d like to see Bernie involved with the club on a more permanent basis next year. 

Yes

Who coaches tackling?

We are tackling like Julian Clary with a bad hangover.

This is the major issue behind our inability to kick the ball between the two central posts.

The marking is so so.

The handball is fair

 

1 hour ago, Biffen said:

Who coaches tackling?

We are tackling like Julian Clary with a bad hangover.

This is the major issue behind our inability to kick the ball between the two central posts.

The marking is so so.

The handball is fair

 

This whole post reads like something Julian Clary would say.

Interesting reading Cam Mooney's thoughts on McCartney in the HS this morning. An interpretation I took away from it was that our players might be a bit soft and that's what has caused the rumoured friction that has lead to McCartney being moved around so much and finally put in a role that's away from the players.

Mooney quote from the article: “I think some of these kids today need a big bag of cement and to harden up."

 

Can we sack Mahoney for trading Hogan too.

25 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Interesting reading Cam Mooney's thoughts on McCartney in the HS this morning. An interpretation I took away from it was that our players might be a bit soft and that's what has caused the rumoured friction that has lead to McCartney being moved around so much and finally put in a role that's away from the players.

Mooney quote from the article: “I think some of these kids today need a big bag of cement and to harden up."

That is consistent with @Earl Hoodtraining report on Monday that Macca thought players weren't working hard enough.

If players are behind Macca's move (which I doubt) I'm worried.  Players called the shots in the Dean Bailey days and we went no-where.

Players have lauded Macca for years so I wonder whether moving him was relationships with coaches rather than with players ie move a 'dissenter' or the 'fall guy' syndrome. 

I would concur with Mooney as imv we are playing 'softly'.  We were ferocious in the finals but have seen very little of that this year.  While injuries have hurt us, any player on the field, regardless of talent or skill can be ferocious.  We need that ferocity back, urgently

Edited June 20, 20195 yr by Lucifer's Hero

5 minutes ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

That is consistent with @Earl Hoodtraining report on Monday that Macca thought players weren't working hard enough.

If players are behind Macca's move (which I doubt) I'm worried.  Players called the shots in the Dean Bailey days and we went no-where.

Players have lauded Macca for years so I wonder whether moving him was relationships with coaches rather than with players ie move a 'dissenter' or the 'fall guy' syndrome. 

Mahoney did say that the players were consulted as part of the review process that saw the coaching changes made. This is the same group of players that got the infamous training camp cancelled by the AFLPA, so I wouldn't be surprised if McCartney had been moved due to the playing group thinking he was too hard on them. Clearly if McCartney is saying things like reported here to fans over the fence at training then we're in a bad place at the moment.

I can't really decide what my outlook on it all is. We're in a time with AFL players where there is a generational shift in approach and the 'old school' ways aren't always the best way to reach them anymore. However, for a club where players have called the shots for so long and is renowned for being 'mentally soft' and a bit of a 'boys club' I do wonder if we're allowing too much push back on that harder style.