14 minutes ago, hemingway said:

You don't recruit a player for depth.

 

4 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Sorry but some AFL coaches will disagree with this.

If we're recruiting for depth then I would recruit Goddard of the Brendan variety.

Probably the best depth of the delisted's but I'm not sure anyone will touch him and I'm not saying we should.

...but if it's depth we were looking for then he would be handy as he can cover back, forward and mid...and is still a much better player than any of the other delisted players.

I'm not sure Goody is looking for depth. 

24 minutes ago, hemingway said:

You don't recruit a player for depth.

You recruit a person that you think will improve the team.

Defensive pressure is a non-negotiable.

Goodwin and his coaching staff have this on top of their non-negotiables.

It is one of the major reason for our success at the end of the season.

Menzel has not got this capability.

All the Geelong supporters that I know have apoplectic fits when talking about Menzel.

A leopard does not change its spots.

Its a bit like the negativity that Demon supporters had toward that fair headed chap who's name escapes me.  

if defensive pressure was a non-negotiable then why was hogan in the team...

11 minutes ago, ucanchoose said:

Why do these threads exist?   This is madness 

Demonland would not exist without these threads. 

Leave logic and rationality at the door when you enter.

That's the fun.

3 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

if defensive pressure was a non-negotiable then why was hogan in the team...

Yes, well there you are.

He's no longer on the list.

4 minutes ago, Dr.D said:

if defensive pressure was a non-negotiable then why was hogan in the team...

Agree here  DD and Menzel would be an upgrade on Garlett who has trouble tackling and Spargo who has trouble finding the ball.

Garlett is a gun. Just had a poor season this year.

Don’t give up on him folks. Not yet at least.

 

I don't get what's so hard. See that other bloke, your opponent, who has the ball? Go and try get it back off him. Do so successfully and both you and your team will kick more goals - hurrah! 

Are the elite athletes and competitors who actually reach the AFL and don't apply pressure just lazy or arrogant, or incapable of doing so in terms of their defensive capacity?  Is it systems-based - can it be taught?

If I was given the choice of extending my sporting career on a quarter of a million dollars per year, on the proviso that I made an effort to chase after some guys for a couple of hours twenty-odd times a year, or going into real estate, I know what option would appeal. 

Surely Menzel on these terms is worth a punt. Put in and you probably play, don't and you can fade away in the football boondocks. We need to back in our our systems if we're to convince everyone else we believe in them. 

Note: please don't cite Jack Watts if you choose to respond to this post. 

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

I don't get what's so hard. See that other bloke, your opponent, who has the ball? Go and try get it back off him. Do so successfully and both you and your team will kick more goals - hurrah! 

Are the elite athletes and competitors who actually reach the AFL and don't apply pressure just lazy or arrogant, or incapable of doing so in terms of their defensive capacity?  Is it systems-based - can it be taught?

If I was given the choice of extending my sporting career on a quarter of a million dollars per year, on the proviso that I made an effort to chase after some guys for a couple of hours twenty-odd times a year, or going into real estate, I know what option would appeal. 

Surely Menzel on these terms is worth a punt. Put in and you probably play, don't and you can fade away in the football boondocks. We need to back in our our systems if we're to convince everyone else we believe in them. 

Note: please don't cite Jack Watts if you choose to respond to this post. 

I've always thought the same. It's not like you get paid peanuts to do so either. Seems such a simple thing to do, for not that long a period, to well and truly set your life up financially.

1 hour ago, Skuit said:

Surely Menzel on these terms is worth a punt. Put in and you probably play, don't and you can fade away in the football boondocks.

...and you don't think Scott put it to him on these terms.

I think there's more to it than not just chasing or laying the odd tackle.

It suits the football media & general public to have a simple narrative but I'm sure it goes much deeper.

Daniel Menzel has elite talent, no question. Jack Watts has elite talent also, as does Jeff Garlett. What none of them have is ability or desire to apply the forward pressure required in today's game. In Menzel's case, he may never have had it, I don't know, but four knee reconstructions mounts a case as to why he may not have enough confidence in his knees to do it. Ex- Geelong players at our club, Matthew Egan, Max Rooke, maybe even Shannon Byrnes and Brendan McCartney may know him well enough to know.

Simon Goodwin has a game plan very much built around forward pressure. Jack Watts is gone, Garlett is teetering and yet both have more talent than say the likes of vandenBerg, coming off a longterm injury and Spargo, a kid who doesn't yet get enough off the ball, who while deficient in some areas, perform the non-negotiables of tackling and applying pressure.

If a player in the 22 doesn't perform these non-negotiables, then the fabric of the team starts to fray at this one seam and then the rest can begin to rip and has to be patched as Watts and Garlett have found out the hard way.

I have much respect for Daniel Menzel's elite talents and admire how he has been able to resurrect his career, however I don't think he fits what we are trying to build and would send a wrong message to the rest of the list.

Having seen him interviewed, as a person he comes across as likeable, humble and grateful to those who have supported him on his journey and I really hope he finds an AFL lifeline somewhere.        

Edited October 25, 20186 yr by Key Deefender

9 minutes ago, Key Deefender said:

Daniel Menzel has elite talent, no question. Jack Watts has elite talent also, as does Jeff Garlett. What none of them have is ability or desire to apply the forward pressure required in today's game. In Menzel's case, he may never have had it, I don't know, but four knee reconstructions mounts a case as to why he may not have enough confidence in his knees to do it. Ex- Geelong players at our club, Matthew Egan, Max Rooke, maybe even Shannon Byrnes and Brendan McCartney may know him well enough to know.

Simon Goodwin has a game plan very much built around forward pressure. Jack Watts is gone, Garlett is teetering and yet both have more talent than say the likes of vandenBerg, coming off a longterm injury and Spargo, a kid who doesn't yet get enough off the ball, who while deficient in some areas, perform the non-negotiables.

If a player in the 22 doesn't perform this non-negotiable, then the fabric of the team starts to fray at this one seam and then the rest can begin to rip and needs to be patched as Watts and Garlett have found out the hard way.

I have much respect for Daniel Menzel's elite talents and admire how he has been able to resurrect his career, however I don't think he fits what we are trying to build and would send a wrong message to the rest of the list.

Having seen him interviewed, as a person he comes across as likeable, humble and grateful to those who have supported him on his journey and I really hope he finds an AFL lifeline somewhere.        

Balanced comments. 

The interesting thing is that the Cats have delisted Menzel but kept on the list a group of players with less skills. 

As a medium forward, Menzel will be competing for a spot against Melksham, Hannan and Petracca. Not likely to displace any of them. His deficiencies are also a turnoff. Can’t use him. As useful as another Jack Watts.

Edited October 25, 20186 yr by america de cali

27 minutes ago, Key Deefender said:

If a player in the 22 doesn't perform these non-negotiables, then the fabric of the team starts to fray at this one seam and then the rest can begin to rip and has to be patched as Watts and Garlett have found out the hard way.

Menzel wouldn't be a player in the 22 until he proved he could perform the non-negotiables. He would be a free delisted free agent capable of kicking 40 goals per year added to our list for free - given the chance to make our 22 if he can learn to apply the appropriate pressure in adherence to our systems and game-plan. 

Yes please, we've lost 50 goals from giving Hogan away for peanuts, this guy will make up most of that.

56 minutes ago, TheoX said:

Yes please, we've lost 50 goals from giving Hogan away for peanuts, this guy will make up most of that.

Theo, let it go. May & KK are peanuts?

You could argue that we are not going to play with one less player and that the replacement player would kick some goals therefore not a loss of 50 goals. You could argue that Hogan out allowed Weed in and the net loss if any would be minimal. You could argue that limiting the opposition forward line by a similar amount has a similar effect. 

A point you may have missed is that Menzels lack of forward pressure may cost as many goals as he kicks. 

I don't mind giving him a go but if his forward pressure did not improve dramatically he would spend the year at Casey.

On 10/25/2018 at 7:01 AM, durango said:

How many tackles does Hawkins make in a year, in fact other than a select few their tackling was poor at Geelong since they let Chapman, Bartel and Ling go without replacing them.

In fairness, Hawkins makes plenty more tackles than Menzel, despite having 10 cm and 10 kg on him.

2017:

Menzel- 26 tackles from 19 games

Hawkins- 61 tackles from 22 games

 

2018:

Menzel- 14 tackles from 13 games

Hawkins - 40 tackles from 21 games

 

He'd be in competition with players like ANB (118 tackles), Spargo (55 tackles) Petracca (73 tackles) and Melksham (44 tackles)

3 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

In fairness, Hawkins makes plenty more tackles than Menzel, despite having 10 cm and 10 kg on him.

2017:

Menzel- 26 tackles from 19 games

Hawkins- 61 tackles from 22 games

 

2018:

Menzel- 14 tackles from 13 games

Hawkins - 40 tackles from 21 games

 

He'd be in competition with players like ANB (118 tackles), Spargo (55 tackles) Petracca (73 tackles) and Melksham (44 tackles)

14 tackles in 13 games is pure laziness. Menzel hangs out the back and kicks the easy goals, any spud can do that. He’d contribute to more opposition goals than what he kicks himself. 

15 hours ago, Ron Burgundy said:

Garlett is a gun. Just had a poor season this year.

Don’t give up on him folks. Not yet at least.

 

If Garlett is a gun, Spargo is a canon. 

5 hours ago, Skuit said:

Menzel wouldn't be a player in the 22 until he proved he could perform the non-negotiables. He would be a free delisted free agent capable of kicking 40 goals per year added to our list for free - given the chance to make our 22 if he can learn to apply the appropriate pressure in adherence to our systems and game-plan. 

The club may take the view that it’s a waste of time trying. I’d be inclined to think if he still couldn’t manage it despite Scott clearly being frustrated by it and his career being at risk as a result, there’s a chance he just doesn’t have it in him.

Like you it perplexes me how it can be possible to not be able develop that aspect to a player’s game in the AFL environment, but it would seem that it is.

16 hours ago, Dr.D said:

if defensive pressure was a non-negotiable then why was hogan in the team...

Hogan isn't in the team anymore and unfortunately some players can get away with that on shear talent that they apply in other areas. But I'm glad that this paradox no longer exists in our team.

I want Petracca to increase his tank too, because when he's on, his pressure is absolutely elite. And from here, he creates scoring chances.

16 hours ago, Docs Demons said:

Agree here  DD and Menzel would be an upgrade on Garlett who has trouble tackling and Spargo who has trouble finding the ball.

And Menzel's tackling stats and possessions are?

Try not to let facts get in the way of your argument 

3 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

And Menzel's tackling stats and possessions are?

Try not to let facts get in the way of your argument 

Wow!

Andrew Gaff ring a bell to you? I'll save that embarrassment from your good self for another time..

2 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Wow!

Andrew Gaff ring a bell to you? I'll save that embarrassment from your good self for another time..

Still hasn’t won a BnF..

Edited October 26, 20186 yr by Ethan Tremblay

gaff was grossly overrated by demonlanders. no offence guys, but he is not quick and doesnt apply any defensive pressure. people just like him because he accumulates plenty of the ball. a good trait to have but he by no means helps our speed issues  or defensive pressure.

From first hand experience (he coached my son for 3 years during his re-hab) he is a quality person who would add to our improving culture. Was outcast by Scott who plays favourites with his team. Is an elite user of the ball, strong overhead and a very accurate set kick. Watch the last 2 minutes of the Geelong game at GMHBA and see who set that play up that broke our collective hearts.

Attached are some interesting comparative stats for those that dismiss Menzel and bag Garlett.

I am biased because I know him but a lot of Geelong people are shaking their heads in dis-belief.