Post Match Discussion - Round 2

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

3 minutes ago, Cassiew said:

Yeah if anyone disagrees with me can always count on him liking the post. Without fail

Cass, there’s a difference between disagreement and misunderstanding. 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

46 minutes ago, Yokozuna said:

I know this is a generic reply, as I am being lazy and can't be bothered re reading and finding the people who have written the comments such as "we need to demand more" and "we should expect more" etc. 

I really find these comments amusing!!

How do we demand more???? What affect does that really have??

do you think the people involved at the club, such as the players and coaching group, don't want more and aren't working hard to improve and be better??? Of course they demand better from each other.

i am sure after a poor game that the coaches go back and say, good effort, we are really happy with that close win, let's keep going like that and we will be fine!!!

just as I am sure all the better performed teams play better because their fans demand and want more and don't accept mediocrity.

these sort of statements mean nothing unless you actually have a way of doing something about it.

I don't really understand what they expect us to do? Ring up talkback radio and act like a nuffie? Back up a truckload of chicken manure to Goschs Paddock? Turn up to board and/or FD meetings acting all Occupy MFC? What exactly do they mean by demanding more?

Edited April 1, 2018 by Dr. Gonzo

[pineapple dee 2,892]

22 hours ago, Mondê said:

4 points in the bag, but fadeouts need to be addressed pronto. Lots of people bashing Lewis... and it's fair enough. Move him to the coaches box and bring Gus in. We need to instill some confidence in Gus, he's our future not Lewis. The time is now. 

Is it just me or has Hunt lost a yard or two? Where's the trademark run and carry gone? It has really exposed him as an average footballer. Stretch comes in to that role for mine.

Lever needs time to build up that matchday chemistry, Frost in to free him up. 

Really noticing the absence of Viney and Tom McDonald.

Super impressed with Oscar's first two outings, he's truly accountable and reads the play beautifully. We've got a staple here ladies and gents. 

Clarry doing Clarry things, cannot recall a more spectacular first 37 games from a Demon. Exciting stuff. 

Perhaps you are too young to remember Alan Jakovich. In terms of excitement, Jakovich was the equivalent of Clarry. And he kicked a mountain of goals to boot.Wow , was he good that bloke ????

[jackaub 1,402]

11 hours ago, Redleg said:

We rely on contested ball and when it comes free, we don't have the players to spread. Taylor, Cox, Cameron, Christensen etc cut us to ribbons like the Cats last week in the second quarter.

The ball was greasy and that affected our game. 

We had a 6 day turnaround interstate and gave up a longer break to our opponent. Same will happen next week .

We have some players like Hunt and Jetta who are badly out of form.  

We have sub AFL skilled players like Bugg getting a game. 

We are not using Lever like the Crows did . He needs to take the third forward, not the main or second one, as that then allows him to spoil more contests and sweep and set up play, which he can do very well .

We don't shut down play when a side gets a run on . 

The umpires were pathetic and we don't have duckers and actors. 

We have one of our best mids and our second best forward out injured . 

Players like Kent, Stretch and Baker, who have pace need to come on to give us that outside run, or we need to find a couple.

In the end we won and fought back at the death and it was a hard earned 4 points and I will gladly take them .

 

 

Agree with all of this

Why havent the coaches addressed these issues. Lever situation especially. Goodwin must be asleep or stupid.

Watched him in the box during the game Looks clueless when we are under thepump

[sue 9,102]

4 minutes ago, jackaub said:

...

Watched him in the box during the game Looks clueless when we are under thepump

Your ability to mind read is impressive.  I suppose if he was throwing phones about, breaking his wrist thumping the table or rolling his eyes that would indicate he had a plan. 

Personally I have my doubts about him as a coach at this stage, but I'm not basing that on his facial expressions.  I say 'at this stage' because we don't know what he is really planning, e.g. with Lever.  May turn out to be a masterstroke.

[jackaub 1,402]

2 minutes ago, sue said:

Your ability to mind read is impressive.  I suppose if he was throwing phones about, breaking his wrist thumping the table or rolling his eyes that would indicate he had a plan. 

Personally I have my doubts about him as a coach at this stage, but I'm not basing that on his facial expressions.  I say 'at this stage' because we don't know what he is really planning, e.g. with Lever.  May turn out to be a masterstroke.

I am not just talking about facial expressions  but also  about timely coaching moves on the ground

Maybe behind that fixed facial facade is a supercharged mind racing along ahead of the game planning moves and strategies to win

Dont really know as you said I cannot in reality just looks clueless to me Ok??

[Lucifers Hero 39,737]

Re how Lever is playing/being played.

1.  There is a big assumption on here that our coaches want him to play as the 3rd tall, sweeping, intercept defender.  The assumption is based on Adelaide's game plan not ours.

2.  Even if given the 3rd tall role he can't sweep and intercept if opp coaches isolate him.  Scott plonked Lever's (debutante) opponent in the goal square and moved his other forwards away.  Lever couldn't get to the play to make a contest.   

3.  If Lever can't play one on one he becomes a one trick pony.  Opp coaches aren't going to sit there and watch him waltz around their forward line so he is being taught to play one on one.  A good ref point is Rance who has learnt to play one on one and on Friday night showed how good he is when he was able to switch between the two. 

Lever is still learning the defense craft and when he does he will be every bit as good as if not better than Rance.  It will take a little time but Lever and our team will be much better for it. 

[Nasher 33,613]

10 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

 

We're carrying a stack of underperforming/out of form players: Bugg, Jetta, Hunt, Harmes, ANB, Melksham, Lewis and Pedersen were all either ineffectual or just OK last night. ANB disappeared after HT, Harmes wasn't sighted.

I thought the same about Harmes, but then discovered he had 23 disposals. His heat map shows the majority of them on the half back flank near the boundary, or directly in the middle. I'd say he's playing the role of a foot soldier in contests, perhaps probably as the link player (received handball from inner mid, deliver to the runner/kicker); that might explain why his touches go unnoticed or appear low impact. I'd say he is probably contributing more than we are giving him credit for.

[WattsUp2312 63]

The hysteria around lever is ridiculous. 2nd game for us, 21 yrs old and not even close to his physical peak yet. He’ll be right.

I’m more worried on hunt - appears off the pace currently and Positionally still naive.

On Lewis - does some great things then some idiotic things...we forget he was part of the Hawthorn machine....sometimes I think he loses it due to the frustration with our team losing its structure.

this season is going to be tough - looked at the fixture list again this morning. Going to be extremely tight all season. Don’t expect +30 point wins in many games

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

Hunt looks to have bulked up and may have lost some flexibility. May come good yet as his body adjusts. Or maybe he's lost the X-factor that made him a viable AFL player?

Also oppo coaches may have worked out how to limit him. Force him on to his wrong foot, etc.

[Mike 315]

35 minutes ago, Mazer Rackham said:

Hunt looks to have bulked up and may have lost some flexibility. May come good yet as his body adjusts. Or maybe he's lost the X-factor that made him a viable AFL player?

Also oppo coaches may have worked out how to limit him. Force him on to his wrong foot, etc.

It looks like Hunt has played more of a lockdown role lately, so maybe he's had a little less freedom to burst off halfback? I remember a great tackle in the 3rd qtr, possibly on Cameron. Was right on his tail.

[Dees2014 2,377]

On 01/04/2018 at 10:25 AM, old dee said:

Lewis is very close to the end. IMO right now he would playing at Casey but for his reputation. I was hoping he could see out this year but I reckon he will really be struggling by August. 

OD, the thing I worry about more than anything else about Lewis is his ill-discipline: arguably he cost us directly the Geelong game through a brain fade, and could easily have done the same on Saturday night. This is not new. Even his first year with us he was rubbed out for I think three games early in the season through trying to be a tough guy when it was more like thuggish behaviour, which could have cost us a place in the eight. Given his fading pace, I think he is rapidly falling out of our best 22. Time to give the better disciplined young guns a go. We would lose very little...

[QueensBirthday 186]

The issue is not the players.  The coaching staff have a lot to answer for...

If you're not using your team and so that everyone plays to their strengths and have a dogged mentality to play in a certain way without the players to unfold your 'twisted moustache' plan, then you're really a bad coach. End of story.

What is sorely lacking is teamwork. Namely; two players in the contest vs 1; 1 wrestles the other takes an easy mark. Three of ours go up and get spoilt by 1 of theirs. This should never happen, but it always does to us. 

Teaching players to run to advantage, only Hogan did this well in the last quarter, the opposition do it all the time.

We are a premiership winning team with the people on our list. Play them properly, coach them well and we're set.  Unfortunately, we're not coached well and so we'll be a below ability performing team all year.  And that might sneak us into the finals, but what a waste.

Goodwin, thin ice bud!!

[jnrmac 20,058]

1 hour ago, WattsUp2312 said:

The hysteria around lever is ridiculous. 2nd game for us, 21 yrs old and not even close to his physical peak yet. He’ll be right.

I’m more worried on hunt - appears off the pace currently and Positionally still naive.

On Lewis - does some great things then some idiotic things...we forget he was part of the Hawthorn machine....sometimes I think he loses it due to the frustration with our team losing its structure.

this season is going to be tough - looked at the fixture list again this morning. Going to be extremely tight all season. Don’t expect +30 point wins in many games

Which is why its so incredibly important to put teams to the sword when we are 42 points up.

It's now 10 games since the start of last season where we have let teams score 5+ goals in a row. We are doing a lot of things right but this is what will stop us being a real threat to to the comp. 

[jnrmac 20,058]

On 4/1/2018 at 10:25 AM, old dee said:

Lewis is very close to the end. IMO right now he would playing at Casey but for his reputation. I was hoping he could see out this year but I reckon he will really be struggling by August. 

I would have thought if anyone can give a little slack to older players it would be you OD.....

[old dee 23,787]

2 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

I would have thought if anyone can give a little slack to older players it would be you OD.....

In AFL age is limiting factor jm. In fact at my age it is very limiting. It is a dog eat dog  World in AFL if you cannot cut it you have get out of the road and let someone who can in the team. 

[Deestar9 1,615]

2 hours ago, jackaub said:

I am not just talking about facial expressions  but also  about timely coaching moves on the ground

Maybe behind that fixed facial facade is a supercharged mind racing along ahead of the game planning moves and strategies to win

Dont really know as you said I cannot in reality just looks clueless to me Ok??

Such ridiculous statements ...you are not the coach or coaching panel..have no idea what they want implemented behind closed doors ...we have heaps of improvement to make & with a team full of young players that is what we will get.  We won the game ..we are seeing a team that had new set ups & new players & two very important players missing ...learning to work & gell together. I am happy as a supporter to watch this team develop & improve ...it’s a very long season so let’s save our angst for when it is genuinely deserved...we are in the 8 at the end of Rd 2 ....pretty happy with that !!

[DV8 2,271]

3 hours ago, Dr. Gonzo said:

I don't really understand what they expect us to do? Ring up talkback radio and act like a nuffie? Back up a truckload of chicken manure to Goschs Paddock? Turn up to board and/or FD meetings acting all Occupy MFC? What exactly do they mean by demanding more?

Attitude in the supporters.

Less passive about the club, and be more outwardly passionate. And spontaneous.

To not fall back into a more submissive role when we all just think,  "oh they know the way forward",  just let them be...

 

This is a balance thing between being too trusting of administrations,,, and being too aggro, and tearing the stands down.

 

I am saying that over the decades, the conservative Melbourne attitude has been too patient with the club, and the way its run.

That the supporters have resisted change too much, and this has allowed our 'over conservative approach' to continue to survive, at our own expence as a club. 

So we miss out on opportunity, after opportunity...  we just do not take them...  chances.

 

Sometimes we should gamble and risk needing the AFL to pickup the pieces...  Sometimes we are just too financially responsible, and so do nothing, but shrink.  and the the AFL has to come in anyway.

 

eg: We should have gone after the Olympic Swimming centre when we had a chance, even though we couldn't afford it. 

Just as one major point, which would have really changed our clubs fortunes. 

 

Sometimes you just have to take that "Leap of Faith"... "growth"  or fail, & be bailed out.

 

We have consistently feared making BIG decisions at board level for the clubs growth,,, for FEAR of failure.

 

Someone said that,  "to keep doing the same things over and over, expecting different outcomes"  is pure madness.  I say its FEAR.

 

a fearful club, is a beaten club.

Edited April 2, 2018 by DV8

[jnrmac 20,058]

9 minutes ago, DV8 said:

We have consistently feared making BIG decisions at board level for the clubs growth,,, for FEAR of failure.

a fearful club, is a beaten club.

I don't agree with this. I get that the bigger clubs whine and complain more about fixtures, TV etc but it hasnt helped Collingwood, Essendon or Carlton much - although Carlton have 6 Fri/Sat night fixtures

I'd say our admin hasn't done much wrong at all and given where they have come from have done and extraordinary job.

My biggest fear is that we have a novice coach. Yes he has good credentials and yes he has had a decent apprenticeship but the jury is still out for mine about his ability to coach. There is a difference between managing and coaching and the Coll game last round last year was a huge red flag for me. Clarkson, Sheedy or similar would never have come out to play that game in the frame of mind we did.

We have issues of on-field leadership: Lewis should have brought some of that but has let himself and the team down on more than a few occasions. And the fact we have let teams score 5+ consecutive goals on 10 occcasions since the start of 2017 is a massive failure of on field leadership.

How we deal with that will go a long way to determining our fortunes this year.

[Cassiew 1,903]

3 hours ago, Demon77 said:

Cass, there’s a difference between disagreement and misunderstanding. 

And again! Never fails 

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

15 hours ago, Redleg said:

We rely on contested ball and when it comes free, we don't have the players to spread. Taylor, Cox, Cameron, Christensen etc cut us to ribbons like the Cats last week in the second quarter.

The ball was greasy and that affected our game. 

We had a 6 day turnaround interstate and gave up a longer break to our opponent. Same will happen next week .

We have some players like Hunt and Jetta who are badly out of form.  

We have sub AFL skilled players like Bugg getting a game. 

We are not using Lever like the Crows did . He needs to take the third forward, not the main or second one, as that then allows him to spoil more contests and sweep and set up play, which he can do very well .

We don't shut down play when a side gets a run on . 

The umpires were pathetic and we don't have duckers and actors. 

We have one of our best mids and our second best forward out injured . 

Players like Kent, Stretch and Baker, who have pace need to come on to give us that outside run, or we need to find a couple.

In the end we won and fought back at the death and it was a hard earned 4 points and I will gladly take them .

 

 

This summary is very good Redleg 

I believe you've nailed our biggest weakness, it is the spread and ball use against the better elite teams. It's coming along but we still have major issues like you've pointed out.

I watched Port v Swans last night and both those teams are well in front of us in that regard.

Another major issues IMO and I'm not sure how to explain it - but is it Trust in our players to help each other. What I mean is no longer have 3 players going up and none down in contests. I am not sure if it is experience or Trust, but that will help out spread as well.

Anyway, I think we all know there are issues, we are not an elite team like the Hawks, Swans or Cats who have been doing it for years and bringing in new talent, but we are a much better team with issues that need to be ironed out

A couple of posters have said we need to stick to a system, and I agree with that as well. The biggest problem is that the AFL industry and media are focused on the 4pts every week. Everyone loves a winner and it doesn't matter how you win.

I firmly believe we can fix our issues with players playing more games together, and bringing in talent when they're ready. But at the moment getting the 4pts now matter how we get them is the priority.

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Unleash Hell

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

3 hours ago, Lucifer's Hero said:

Re how Lever is playing/being played.

1.  There is a big assumption on here that our coaches want him to play as the 3rd tall, sweeping, intercept defender.  The assumption is based on Adelaide's game plan not ours.

2.  Even if given the 3rd tall role he can't sweep and intercept if opp coaches isolate him.  Scott plonked Lever's (debutante) opponent in the goal square and moved his other forwards away.  Lever couldn't get to the play to make a contest.   

3.  If Lever can't play one on one he becomes a one trick pony.  Opp coaches aren't going to sit there and watch him waltz around their forward line so he is being taught to play one on one.  A good ref point is Rance who has learnt to play one on one and on Friday night showed how good he is when he was able to switch between the two. 

Lever is still learning the defense craft and when he does he will be every bit as good as if not better than Rance.  It will take a little time but Lever and our team will be much better for it. 

Agree LH

But I don't know why we have to label him at all. If he's playing well and the teams winning no matter what his role is surely that's a win?

I understand people need to feel better because of the price paid for him. But players impacts aren't always measured on possessions etc. We are 2 games in to the season, like you've said I think it's way too early to judge.

 

[Red and Bluebeard 2,084]

I think our ball use is one of the key issues. When we play well, it looks great. The problem is when the risky kick doesn't come off, or we fumble, or miss a simple kick. We then seem to go into our shell for too long, and make clanger after clanger. I think we need to be a little less flat out. Roosey put it well in the broadcast I think, when they were praising one of Brisbane's good moves, when he said it is best when the players are moving quickly, but not at a frenetic pace, so something like 3/4 pace. That means they have enough poise to assess the options, while still moving quickly enough to take advantage of any lack of positioning of the defence. IMHO that is what Garlett and Hogan did best, ie moved quickly enough to take advantage, but with the poise and confidence to pick the right option. When we suck, like most of the second half, it seems we are a bunch of desperate chooks, all running like crazy but not getting anywhere. Perhaps it is confidence, perhaps it is coaching, perhaps it is experience (or all three), but somehow we have to get better at sticking to our stuff when the run of play is against us, and making sure our skills don't drop off.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

49 minutes ago, jnrmac said:

I don't agree with this. I get that the bigger clubs whine and complain more about fixtures, TV etc but it hasnt helped Collingwood, Essendon or Carlton much - although Carlton have 6 Fri/Sat night fixtures

I'd say our admin hasn't done much wrong at all and given where they have come from have done and extraordinary job.

My biggest fear is that we have a novice coach. Yes he has good credentials and yes he has had a decent apprenticeship but the jury is still out for mine about his ability to coach. There is a difference between managing and coaching and the Coll game last round last year was a huge red flag for me. Clarkson, Sheedy or similar would never have come out to play that game in the frame of mind we did.

We have issues of on-field leadership: Lewis should have brought some of that but has let himself and the team down on more than a few occasions. And the fact we have let teams score 5+ consecutive goals on 10 occcasions since the start of 2017 is a massive failure of on field leadership.

How we deal with that will go a long way to determining our fortunes this year.

Momentum in footy is a massive talking point.

Don't get all upset but in forming your opinion have you simply just looked at our team in making this assessment or have you looked at other teams in making the assessment as well?

Take for example Sydney yesterday, they gave up 10 goals to 4 in the second half. Now I would think the Swans would be one of the most experienced teams running around in the AFL at the moment. They clearly couldn't handle the momentum change or take their opportunities. In your opinion does that classify Horse Longmire as a novice? Are McVeigh, Parker and Buddy poor leaders because they should have done more?

While I don't want to knock your opinion because there is nothing wrong with it, and it's true we lack the ability to limit a momentum change. I do wonder if people just comment on feelings (especially on demonland) rather then taking a breath and looking around them?

I believe the jury is still out on this season and Goodwin, but I think the issues you've raised are league wide issues and not solely a Goodwin issue or a MFC issue.

Edited April 2, 2018 by Unleash Hell

[Dr. Gonzo 24,207]

1 hour ago, jnrmac said:

Which is why its so incredibly important to put teams to the sword when we are 42 points up.

It's now 10 games since the start of last season where we have let teams score 5+ goals in a row. We are doing a lot of things right but this is what will stop us being a real threat to to the comp. 

5+ goals in a row is different to losing a quarter by 5+ goals. Which one is it?