Tired Players

[Engorged Onion 10,112]

I rank Paul Roos as one of the great coaches in the modern era (it goes without saying). At the end of 2016 when we lost to Carlton and Geelong, he did mention quite a lot in the pressers that we have 'a lot of tired players' and 'it's a long season' with our young list. I must confess, I am a little worried that we still have a young list and the new messiah in waiting Goodwin - is looking at playing our best 22 in the preseason comp. So who's got the correct philosophy? Or was Roosy taking the [censored]?  If Roosy was/is correct - it's only 5 months on for god sake Goody, they'll be tired by round 12, not even round 18! Perhaps he is a fan of test cricket - (runs on the board etc etc)?  

[Lucifers Hero 38,865]

Roos is the master of smokescreens.  Last year he said the players were tired after round 2.  Round 2!  He kept that smokescreen up for the rest of the season!

Goodwin is playing his best 22 in the preseason comp because he wants them ready to go round 1 and win early season games.  He has seen what the media (and fans) can do to a new coach if they lose quite a few early on.  He will get a honeymoon period but it won't be a long one.

He won't be worried about players tiring after round 12. 

[Chris 2,892]

From memory we played pretty strong teams in the pre-season last year as well as Roos thought we needed to understand winning and how to do it, not to mention getting the supporters off their back a bit. 

I think we may finally have some real depth now where the bottom 6 or spots on the list can be filled by a dozen or more blokes. That will help with resting players throughout the year which may keep the fatigue more at bay. 

[nutbean 8,838]

I am also a believer that if you are sitting in 8 and going to play finals you get a lot less tired at the end of the season than if you are hanging on by the nails to keep a slim chance alive to make the 8. 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

Bulldogs of 2016.

Decimated by injury throughout the year. 

Finished 7th. 

Won Grand Final.

One of the youngest lists.

 

As LH alluded to, Roosy loved to talk drivel to the media to protect the players. 

 

[daisycutter 29,259]

9 minutes ago, nutbean said:

I am also a believer that if you are sitting in 8 and going to play finals you get a lot less tired at the end of the season than if you are hanging on by the nails to keep a slim chance alive to make the 8. 

correctomundo, nut. best cure for tiredness is winning. worked for dogs too.

in fact winning is the best known medication for everything

[Little Goffy 13,937]

While I think the 'tired players' thing was talked up a bit much at the end of last year, there is some case for it when you consider those last two games in particular.

Bugg definitely faded at the very end of the season. Garlett was ill then a bit flat. Gawn's final two games were among his least damaging for the season. Hogan had clearly faded for about the last 6 rounds. N. Jones last two games, he was still getting it but not causing any great damage. Kennedy had a good first third of the season, ordinary second, and spent the final third of the season in the VFL. Kent copped a quad injury against Carlton and wasn't available against Geelong. Petracca was struggling to stay involved and alerts throughout the final games. Stretch's last couple of games were his least effective for the year. Vince had become quite erratic in his form in the late part of the season, those last two were poor. Even Viney was up and down for the last portion of the season, mixing some great games with some very ordinary. Wagner was another one who had faded late in the season and was back in VFL despite decent earlier form. Watts kicked just one goal in his final three games.

Hmm, so that's 12 players who had a distinctly weak end to their season. I've actually turned a bit now that I've looked closer, and I'm more receptive to the idea of a 'tired team'.

So, to the other part of the topic, how can we have any confidence it wont be just as bad in 2017?

1. Youth development. Yes, preseasons do make a difference, and especially for young players, which includes a big chunk of our list, on every line.

2. List improvement. Lewis, Hibberd and Melksham are all capable of contributing to run, have mature bodies and habits, and should between them play many more games than the entire 2016 group of delistings, to a substantially higher standard.

3. More rest. The steady stream of marks and goals from Jesse Hogan will give all Melbourne players more periods to refresh themselves during the course of each game, as well as allowing for better scheduling of interchanges without needing to sprint to the bench while play is on.

[hemingway 7,615]

20 minutes ago, Little Goffy said:

While I think the 'tired players' thing was talked up a bit much at the end of last year, there is some case for it when you consider those last two games in particular.

Bugg definitely faded at the very end of the season. Garlett was ill then a bit flat. Gawn's final two games were among his least damaging for the season. Hogan had clearly faded for about the last 6 rounds. N. Jones last two games, he was still getting it but not causing any great damage. Kennedy had a good first third of the season, ordinary second, and spent the final third of the season in the VFL. Kent copped a quad injury against Carlton and wasn't available against Geelong. Petracca was struggling to stay involved and alerts throughout the final games. Stretch's last couple of games were his least effective for the year. Vince had become quite erratic in his form in the late part of the season, those last two were poor. Even Viney was up and down for the last portion of the season, mixing some great games with some very ordinary. Wagner was another one who had faded late in the season and was back in VFL despite decent earlier form. Watts kicked just one goal in his final three games.

Hmm, so that's 12 players who had a distinctly weak end to their season. I've actually turned a bit now that I've looked closer, and I'm more receptive to the idea of a 'tired team'.

So, to the other part of the topic, how can we have any confidence it wont be just as bad in 2017?

1. Youth development. Yes, preseasons do make a difference, and especially for young players, which includes a big chunk of our list, on every line.

2. List improvement. Lewis, Hibberd and Melksham are all capable of contributing to run, have mature bodies and habits, and should between them play many more games than the entire 2016 group of delistings, to a substantially higher standard.

3. More rest. The steady stream of marks and goals from Jesse Hogan will give all Melbourne players more periods to refresh themselves during the course of each game, as well as allowing for better scheduling of interchanges without needing to sprint to the bench while play is on.

Great summary Goffy. 

[Little Goffy 13,937]

35 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Bulldogs of 2016.

Decimated by injury throughout the year. 

Finished 7th. 

Won Grand Final.

One of the youngest lists.

As LH alluded to, Roosy loved to talk drivel to the media to protect the players.

End of 2016, Bulldogs (taking the field) were almost a year older and almost 20 games more experienced than the Demons.

Here's the figures for the Bulldogs team that beat Sydney and the Melbourne team that beat Hawthorn a few weeks earlier.

A fair age/experience comparison would be the Demons of 2017 to the Bulldogs of 2016.

In fact, given that all of Oliver, Weidemann, Petracca, O.Mac, Wagner, Stretch, Hunt, Harmes, Salem and Brayshaw finished the season with at most 31 games, we'll probably still have twice as many 'actual kids' at the end of 2017 as did the Bulldogs ending 2016.

That's not taking away anything from the Dog's achievement. As the same table above shows, both Sydney and Hawthorn had about half their team in the very top bracket for experience. What Footscray managed, from 7th on the ladder, was a genuine breakthrough built on terrific depth and a core of true stars capable of changing the tone of games, and having it all come together at just the right time.

No shame in looking to the Dogs as an inspiration, but let's not pretend they got there on 'kids'.

[Steve Lattimer 29]

So our average age at he end of this year would have been relatively the same as theirs at the end of last year without any list changes.
Has our average age increased or decreased since last year?

Our average age could have potentially gone either way with these players no longer at the club.
Grimes, Jones, Terlich, Dunn, Dawes, Newton, Michie and King.

Edited February 20, 2017 by Steve Lattimer

[DeeSpencer 24,669]

I think Goffy summed it up pretty well. Viney had a hip problem and slowed down. Hogan was carrying a sore knee. Stretch, Oliver, Oscar, Petracca, Hunt, Harmes all played a lot of footy.

I would've liked to have seen more resilience but the Hawthorn win was the grand final for the players last year and then they had to go again against Port, Carlton and Geel. They did the job against Port but then were found out for mental toughness against Carl. 

There's a week and a half between the 2nd and 3rd Preseason games and another 2 weeks until the real stuff starts. There's no excuse in being tired for early season rounds. 

Then hopefully we can manage players through the season. 

[Engorged Onion 10,112]

2 hours ago, Little Goffy said:

While I think the 'tired players' thing was talked up a bit much at the end of last year, there is some case for it when you consider those last two games in particular.

Bugg definitely faded at the very end of the season. Garlett was ill then a bit flat. Gawn's final two games were among his least damaging for the season. Hogan had clearly faded for about the last 6 rounds. N. Jones last two games, he was still getting it but not causing any great damage. Kennedy had a good first third of the season, ordinary second, and spent the final third of the season in the VFL. Kent copped a quad injury against Carlton and wasn't available against Geelong. Petracca was struggling to stay involved and alerts throughout the final games. Stretch's last couple of games were his least effective for the year. Vince had become quite erratic in his form in the late part of the season, those last two were poor. Even Viney was up and down for the last portion of the season, mixing some great games with some very ordinary. Wagner was another one who had faded late in the season and was back in VFL despite decent earlier form. Watts kicked just one goal in his final three games.

Hmm, so that's 12 players who had a distinctly weak end to their season. I've actually turned a bit now that I've looked closer, and I'm more receptive to the idea of a 'tired team'.

So, to the other part of the topic, how can we have any confidence it wont be just as bad in 2017?

1. Youth development. Yes, preseasons do make a difference, and especially for young players, which includes a big chunk of our list, on every line.

2. List improvement. Lewis, Hibberd and Melksham are all capable of contributing to run, have mature bodies and habits, and should between them play many more games than the entire 2016 group of delistings, to a substantially higher standard.

3. More rest. The steady stream of marks and goals from Jesse Hogan will give all Melbourne players more periods to refresh themselves during the course of each game, as well as allowing for better scheduling of interchanges without needing to sprint to the bench while play is on.

Great summary indeed - and of course, I was been quite facetious re: the genuineness of P.Roos on that particular topic. Geez we have depth now...thank eff n ell

[Satyriconhome 10,339]

Think Roos was talking more about the players being mentally tired, we kept lifting last year to give us a chance to get into the eight and towards the end we fell over, Goodwin and Macca are both strong on being mentally as well as physically fit, on Saturday we were still going strong at the end and we didn't fall to bits when the Bulldogs charged at the end of the 2nd and 4th, we steadied

[Chook 14,988]

4 hours ago, nutbean said:

I am also a believer that if you are sitting in 8 and going to play finals you get a lot less tired at the end of the season than if you are hanging on by the nails to keep a slim chance alive to make the 8. 

For me, 2004 put paid to that idea forever. Top of the ladder after R18, lose 4 on the trot, slip to 5th, lose to Essendon in the first week of Finals.

[Skuit 9,876]

4 hours ago, stevethemanjordan said:

Bulldogs of 2016.

Decimated by injury throughout the year. 

Finished 7th. 

Won Grand Final.

One of the youngest lists.

 

As LH alluded to, Roosy loved to talk drivel to the media to protect the players. 

 

Decimated through injury - forced to include fresh legs?

I recall a couple times Roos blinked with regard to resting players - Port in Alice perhaps? - and it appeared to cost us.

[BAMF 4,076]

The Carlton and Essendon game were nearly identical in the way the boys came out to play.

They expected to win and didnt get out of 4th gear. It had bugger all to do with being tired.

After the Carlton game the boys were heartbroken and simply call it in. Its easy to be tired when you dont give a [censored].

 

[Little Goffy 13,937]

17 hours ago, Chook said:

For me, 2004 put paid to that idea forever. Top of the ladder after R18, lose 4 on the trot, slip to 5th, lose to Essendon in the first week of Finals.

That year, and a lot of the Daniher era come to think of it, was all very 'streaky'. Strings of losses and runs of wins, enough to drive us all mad.

2004 finished with 5 losses in a row. 2005 there was a 7-loss run that took us from competing for top spot against the Eagles in round 13, losing by just  two goals in Perth, to barely scraping into finals at the last gasp. 2006 we started and finished the season shakily and dominated mid-season.

Yeah, adding the fade-out at the end of 2016 to the equation, you'd have to say that for Melbourne it is a real problem to be in finals contention, it really messes them up. Yay.

[Dannyz 2,523]

Must be the Paleo diet.