Training - Thursday 5th January, 2017

[stuie 7,374]

2 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

Remind me again how many premierships Sicily's won.

Now you're just being silly.

He was quoted given his comments about how beneficial he found the Kokoda experience.

But sure, if his word is not good enough for you, maybe you paid attention to 4 time premiership player Jordan Lewis' comments.

 

[Satyriconhome 10,736]

59 minutes ago, ProDee said:

In my view this camp was as beneficial to the new coaching group as it potentially was for the players.

What better way to understand the strengths and weaknesses of your group than putting them under extreme pressure.  I'm sure there was the aspect of new players bonding, but what better environment to fully understand your playing list and the best way to help individuals as you prepare for a new season.

It's the sort of exercise you wouldn't do every year, or often, but there's a whole new dynamic at play with plenty of new coaches, as well as new players.

People seem to only be focussing on what the players will get out of it.  For me it's players learning about themselves, each other, and the coaches, together with the coaches learning about each other, the players and cementing the "why" of this group, which goes hand in hand with their collective goals.

Unless you know the immediate goals of Goodwin/McCartney it's difficult to critique.  You may assume what they're trying to achieve, but you can't be entirely sure. 

You have it in one, these exercises are all of the above, but as I said you have to embrace it to get any perceived benefit, although at the time it may not seem if there is any benefit

[Fork 'em 6,983]

1 hour ago, stuie said:

Now you're just being silly.

He was quoted given his comments about how beneficial he found the Kokoda experience.

But sure, if his word is not good enough for you, maybe you paid attention to 4 time premiership player Jordan Lewis' comments.

 

Not really.
Lewis was probably just toeing the club line.
Might've been a good adventure but he's not gonna come out and say it was a waste of time football wise on the Hawthorn website is he.
Abit like listening to our boys tell us the pre-seasons been the best ever every year.
Won't be long and Lewis will be on the MFC website talking about how he sees the similarities between us and Hawthorn when they were on the way up.
It's all just propaganda to be gobbled up by the gullible.

 

 

Edited January 6, 2017 by Fork 'em

[PaulRB 6,352]

11 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

Not really.
Lewis was probably just toeing the club line.
Might've been a good adventure but he's not gonna come out and say it was a waste of time football wise on the Hawthorn website is he.
Abit like listening to our boys tell us the pre-seasons been the best ever every year.
Won't be long and Lewis will be on the MFC website talking about how he sees the similarities between us and Hawthorn when they were on the way up.
It's all just propaganda to be gobbled up by the gullible.

 

 

I think you are missing the fundamental point that it takes absolute certainly in ones believe in self, team, coach, program etc... to win a premiership in an 18 team competition. 

Any doubt feeds defeat. Talking it up is about building that certainty in self, team, etc...

It's much much more than mere propaganda.

[rjay 24,890]

12 hours ago, ProDee said:

Unless you know the immediate goals of Goodwin/McCartney it's difficult to critique.  You may assume what they're trying to achieve, but you can't be entirely sure. 

...but you can critique the wisdom of doing this type of training. For one thing sleep deprivation for an elite athlete is not optimal, as sleep plays a major part in recovery.

It just opens up the chance of injury, yes we are going to get some in regular training but why increase the risk.

It would be interesting to see the cost/benefit analysis of this training.

[Ethan Tremblay 30,827]

12 hours ago, Fork 'em said:

Not really.
Lewis was probably just toeing the club line.
Might've been a good adventure but he's not gonna come out and say it was a waste of time football wise on the Hawthorn website is he.
Abit like listening to our boys tell us the pre-seasons been the best ever every year.
Won't be long and Lewis will be on the MFC website talking about how he sees the similarities between us and Hawthorn when they were on the way up.
It's all just propaganda to be gobbled up by the gullible.

 

 

I agree. When asked directly about the Kokoda experience, I can't imagine Lewis, or anything other player, saying commeting negative about it. Perhaps only that it was hard work. 

[stuie 7,374]

11 minutes ago, rjay said:

...but you can critique the wisdom of doing this type of training. For one thing sleep deprivation for an elite athlete is not optimal, as sleep plays a major part in recovery.

It just opens up the chance of injury, yes we are going to get some in regular training but why increase the risk.

It would be interesting to see the cost/benefit analysis of this training.

You'd be pretty sure that with a group like PJ, Mahoney, Goodwin & McCartney, that they'd done a fair bit of research into if this was beneficial or not.

PJ isn't exactly a sucker when it comes to spending money.

 

[stuie 7,374]

8 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

I agree. When asked directly about the Kokoda experience, I can't imagine Lewis, or anything other player, saying commeting negative about it. Perhaps only that it was hard work. 

You can believe whatever you suits you (or your point) about what has been said by players about these types of experiences, but you pretty clearly can't disbelieve their success as a team. Sure, it's near impossible to know how much of a part it played in their success, but you're living under a rock if you've missed how important Hawthorn consider the Kokoda experience, and given they still do it it's obvious they think it works and they have 4 recent premierships to back that up with.

 

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

22 minutes ago, rjay said:

...but you can critique the wisdom of doing this type of training. For one thing sleep deprivation for an elite athlete is not optimal, as sleep plays a major part in recovery.

It just opens up the chance of injury, yes we are going to get some in regular training but why increase the risk.

It would be interesting to see the cost/benefit analysis of this training.

It seems to me that whilst the debate has been robust nobody here claims any specific knowledge to substantiate their position.  Therefore it seems most are just pizzing in the wind and wanting to defend their positions in the absence of any facts.

My uninformed position would be that it's of dubious benefit but I'd be open to the arguments for it.  I'm inclined to think that given the experience of people like Mahoney, Goodwin and McCartney the benefits would outweigh the negatives.  Those worried about the injury aspect need to appreciate that injury can occur in any aspect of training - Petracca in training, Frawley in weights and Allan Jakovich getting his gear out of the car.  Hell, didn't someone get bitten by something at Brighton beach one year during a recovery session?

Whilst McQueen and Dazzle have experienced this sort of thing and claim no benefit neither are AFL players who are expected to perform at high levels when exhausted.

 

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

I'm another who has been on one which was run by a company called IDQ who usually take elite sports teams. (Recently they took Melbourne Storm on one so I wonder if it's the same company). I was playing with a struggling A grade amateur side who were perceived to be 'soft' and would 'crumble' under pressure in clutch games. The club decided to forked out thousands of dollars for most senior players to attend. We'd finished about sixth the season just gone.

The 'outpost guarding' exercise described by the poster with inside info sounds identical to the one we did. After one and a half days of a variety of the most intense, repetitious and torturous exercise off the back of about 4 hours sleep max, we were given the outpost guarding exercise at about 11 pm at night. Set-up around a circular walking track, players were positioned individually about 100 metres from one another so that you were on your own to guard your area whilst one of the IDQ guys would walk around making a call which you had to respond to when he passed your area. I fell asleep twice during the exercise which went for over an hour and a half and I remember some guys were hallucinating quite seriously when stories were shared after it finished.

If it is indeed true that not one MFC player fell asleep during this exercise, I'm gobsmacked. That's amazing. 

As for whether it was beneficial or not, obviously I can only speak from individual experience and the things that I got out of it were the following:

A sense of place within my unit/team which allowed me to feel more comfortable and confident as a 20 year old getting to know senior players as well as senior coaches which has an on-flow effect to feeling more comfortable and confident in yourself at training and in games of footy. For all the new draftees and most young players at our club, that experience alone is of benefit.

It also dissolved physical and mental boundaries. Knowing what I'd endured on that camp spurred me on in pre-season running and in games from then on. Of course this is not new for many who have been on pre-season camps, but I hadn't experienced that level of pain ever before. And I'm sure some of the young guys at our club would say the same.

As for injuries, we copped a few also. Some serious and that's the risk taken when you attend these camps. I'm sure in and amongst the sore bodies and injuries at the MFC, there will have been a lot of self-development for individuals and bonds would have been formed and further strengthened. And that can only be a good thing.

 

For anyone interested in where we finished the following year: Third last.

Edited January 7, 2017 by stevethemanjordan

[McQueen 17,864]

The greatest risk posed with this sort of training comes at night, when you can see SFA and head out into unfamiliar terrain and have cause to run when you come under attack.

Not the sort of environment I would be sending an expensive AFL player into - particularly when sleep deprived.

Let's hope the reward is greater than the risk on this occasion and Tyson has no long term effects.

Vogon is right. I'm no AFL listed player but I'd argue that I'm a lot smarter than many of them. The desired outcomes for elite sports teams would be very different compared to those of business leadership, even though they clearly have similarities.

I look forward to reading/watching more about this in the coming weeks, if and when the club put something together about it.

It might have been something as simple as an input towards selecting the leadership team for all we know.

[Fork 'em 6,983]

 

1 hour ago, stuie said:

You can believe whatever you suits you (or your point) about what has been said by players about these types of experiences, but you pretty clearly can't disbelieve their success as a team. Sure, it's near impossible to know how much of a part it played in their success, but you're living under a rock if you've missed how important Hawthorn consider the Kokoda experience, and given they still do it it's obvious they think it works and they have 4 recent premierships to back that up with.

 

Winning flags had more to do with having Franklin, Roughy , Hodge , Rioli, Mitchell, Lewis on the list and then cherrypicking the likes of Gibson , Burgoyne, Lake and Frawley than any trip to kokoda.

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Fork 'em

[Ted Lasso 19,351]

2 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

 

Winning flags has more to do with having Franklin, Roughy , Hodge , Rioli, Mitchell, Lewis on the list and then cherrypicking the likes of Gibson , Burgoyne, Lake and Frawley than any trip to kokoda.

 

I think his point is that they continue to do it so rightly or wrongly they believe it works and they have premierships to back up the idea that what they are doing is working. They do almost everything extremely well and that tells me that they know what they are doing and they wouldn't do this training if they didn't feel it could be beneficial to them. 

[stuie 7,374]

5 minutes ago, Fork 'em said:

 

Winning flags had more to do with having Franklin, Roughy , Hodge , Rioli, Mitchell, Lewis on the list and then cherrypicking the likes of Gibson , Burgoyne, Lake and Frawley than any trip to kokoda.

Did you read my post before replying?

 

[Satyriconhome 10,736]

46 minutes ago, McQueen said:

The greatest risk posed with this sort of training comes at night, when you can see SFA and head out into unfamiliar terrain and have cause to run when you come under attack.

Not the sort of environment I would be sending an expensive AFL player into - particularly when sleep deprived.

Let's hope the reward is greater than the risk on this occasion and Tyson has no long term effects.

Vogon is right. I'm no AFL listed player but I'd argue that I'm a lot smarter than many of them. The desired outcomes for elite sports teams would be very different compared to those of business leadership, even though they clearly have similarities.

I look forward to reading/watching more about this in the coming weeks, if and when the club put something together about it.

It might have been something as simple as an input towards selecting the leadership team for all we know.

I have been involved in both the military so know the benefits of this type of training and business leadership but would never claim to be smarter than an AFL player, particularly those studying at University, which I never had the opportunity to do,  I learnt business by hands on

I am sure most had the native intelligence to get through unscathed

The outcome in both sport and business is to win, if it's not in business then make sure you tell the shareholders

Unfortunately in both there are casualties, but at least the impact of failure in a footy club is usually restricted to those close to the club and maybe those close to them, not the wider community, still on my bucket list to get my hands on a Lehman Bros'executive throat and squeeze

Tyson will be fine, he told me not to panic, second favourite player behind Nev

Forgot   also done Kokoda  recommend it if you want to test yourself

 

Edited January 7, 2017 by Satyriconhome
Forgot

[stuie 7,374]

56 minutes ago, stevethemanjordan said:

For anyone interested in where we finished the following year: Third last.

Haha that was a rollercoaster of a ride with a twist at the end!

 

[McQueen 17,864]

26 minutes ago, Satyriconhome said:

I have been involved in both the military so know the benefits of this type of training and business leadership but would never claim to be smarter than an AFL player, particularly those studying at University, which I never had the opportunity to do,  I learnt business by hands on

I am sure most had the native intelligence to get through unscathed

The outcome in both sport and business is to win, if it's not in business then make sure you tell the shareholders

Unfortunately in both there are casualties, but at least the impact of failure in a footy club is usually restricted to those close to the club and maybe those close to them, not the wider community, still on my bucket list to get my hands on a Lehman Bros'executive throat and squeeze

Tyson will be fine, he told me not to panic, second favourite player behind Nev

 

Never went to university either, Saty.

I deal with a lot of people who have and can tell you that for a lot of them there was no benefit.

[DeeSpencer 25,508]

I reckon the way the Hawks do Kokoda is brilliant. 

They use it as a right of passage for the young and new players to feel part of the team. They soak up the history of the place. They learn about team work and form an instant bond with each other. Clarko goes with them doesn't he? So he gets to see them under pressure and they get to respect him going with them. 

It has a purpose. It's not fake. It's formed it's own niche in their program.

I don't know what to make of these military camps but like most things in life you only get out what you put in. If it's well planned for a purpose and the players commit to it then they'll get a lot out of it. They've been training at Gosch's for weeks and still have plenty time left there and up in QLD for footy skills. Nothing wrong with mixing it up as well.

[jnrmac 20,055]

26 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

I reckon the way the Hawks do Kokoda is brilliant. 

They use it as a right of passage for the young and new players to feel part of the team. They soak up the history of the place. They learn about team work and form an instant bond with each other. Clarko goes with them doesn't he? So he gets to see them under pressure and they get to respect him going with them. 

It has a purpose. It's not fake. It's formed it's own niche in their program.

I don't know what to make of these military camps but like most things in life you only get out what you put in. If it's well planned for a purpose and the players commit to it then they'll get a lot out of it. They've been training at Gosch's for weeks and still have plenty time left there and up in QLD for footy skills. Nothing wrong with mixing it up as well.

Giving these young men a sense of history and those who went before them is important for their development as rounded individuals and taking opportunities that they have been gifted.

Not sure its suited for everyone but from all reports it has been an integral part of the Hawks ethos.

[Willmoy1947 4,081]

I dunno about AFL Teams but if someone said it's ok to stay awake for as long as you like and run around the scrub and i was twenty odd, i'd reckon it was Xmas.

Scrub Hill used to provide this sort of stuff with fire and snakes and spiders (broken arms and legs and square offs) and i was pretty young then. I loved the lack of sleep because no one was asleep.

I'm more in the players already got the ability camp.

[Vogon Poetry 2,095]

2 hours ago, McQueen said:

I deal with a lot of people who have and can tell you that for a lot of them there was no benefit.

I haven't been on these things before but I've done physically demanding things in the past.  I'm sceptical when people say they get no benefit.  I just wonder if you learn something about yourself that you might not even be aware of or if the experience prepares you for some things.

I don't know, I just find it hard to believe a well (human) resourced and competent management group would ok it for little or no benefit.  It's not like they wouldn't have other things they'd like to do with the money.

[Wiseblood 24,637]

2 minutes ago, Vogon Poetry said:

I haven't been on these things before but I've done physically demanding things in the past.  I'm sceptical when people say they get no benefit.  I just wonder if you learn something about yourself that you might not even be aware of or if the experience prepares you for some things.

I don't know, I just find it hard to believe a well (human) resourced and competent management group would ok it for little or no benefit.  It's not like they wouldn't have other things they'd like to do with the money.

I think we've probably ended up in between the truth - for some it would have been rewarding, but less so for others, especially those players who picked up an injury or aggravated something.  It's fair to say that if an AFL club is doing it then you would assume there is some benefit in it, but it still seems to be a slightly archaic approach all the same.

[McQueen 17,864]

2 hours ago, Vogon Poetry said:

I haven't been on these things before but I've done physically demanding things in the past.  I'm sceptical when people say they get no benefit.  I just wonder if you learn something about yourself that you might not even be aware of or if the experience prepares you for some things.

I don't know, I just find it hard to believe a well (human) resourced and competent management group would ok it for little or no benefit.  It's not like they wouldn't have other things they'd like to do with the money.

My employer put more than 100 people through it - we have approximately 3000 in Australia. I would estimate that 90% of the people that went on this training judged it similar to me.

As added context, there was an accountability on the training operator to provide post-cohort support. They did but it was [censored]-poor and was decisively worse than the actual 4 day event.

Not long afterwards, the whole exercise was shitcanned by management.

I'm sure there are better operators out there better than what I went on and experienced. 

Don't get me wrong, I hope what the players did was fantastic and yields results. How those results are measured are the challenge. 

[Satyriconhome 10,736]

26 minutes ago, McQueen said:

My employer put more than 100 people through it - we have approximately 3000 in Australia. I would estimate that 90% of the people that went on this training judged it similar to me.

As added context, there was an accountability on the training operator to provide post-cohort support. They did but it was [censored]-poor and was decisively worse than the actual 4 day event.

Not long afterwards, the whole exercise was shitcanned by management.

I'm sure there are better operators out there better than what I went on and experienced. 

Don't get me wrong, I hope what the players did was fantastic and yields results. How those results are measured are the challenge. 

Your experience is beginning to make more sense now McQueen, like any industry where you can make money, there are good operators and charlatans, sounds like your company managed to source charlatans.

I have experienced one company that was run by an ex 'special forces' operative, he was, he managed a couple of weekends in the reserves before being elbowed, unfortunately like the personal training and education industry the oversight by 'inspectors' is poor leading to charlatans having free reign to take money before being caught out

Hopefully the club will have sourced a professional well accredited organization to provide this training

With this training there is no tangible measurement, it is to show the participants that they are capable of more than they think they are, from the snippets some have heard and what was told to me by the players it obviously achieved this, I find it noteworthy that somebody has already mentioned that nobody from the club went to sleep, I have only heard this occurring in professional soldiers previously, so the mental strengthening that Goodwin is trying to instill seems to be already working

I have missed the grand total of three training sessions since the start of the pre season, the standouts for me from previous seasons is the sheer physicality on display at every session, the camaraderie amongst the players going to another level, and the drive all show to complete each session without showing stress or tiredness despite what is thrown at them

Edited January 7, 2017 by Satyriconhome

[rjay 24,890]

We've probably done this to death now (training camp), but some really interesting points have been raised.

I'm more in the negative than positive but won't disregard what others have said. I'm not happy about Tyson picking up an injury and that probably colours my view as I think he is a critical part of our team.

...but I'm also more a train football to play football kind of person.