Who are the Dees chasing for 2017 and at what cost?

[Fat Tony 5,083]

Just now, ProDee said:

Really ?  Potentially Hunt, Melksham, Hibberd, Salem, etc.  I know Hunt is the only speedster, but I'm not sure it will be an issue.  Melksham's pace is good, but may lack the finishing skills.  There's also Frost who takes it on from the back-half.  I reckon the back-line is coming together nicely if we land Hibberd.

Another inside mid ?  I would've thought a classy outside mid was far more pressing.

I agree 100%. We need a classy wingman with pace. Our best outside midfielder with pace at the moment is Matt Jones. Stretch is coming along well but isn't really quick. Bugg lacks class. Salem may move to the wing, but isn't quick enough to break lines. Melksham may play the role, but hasn't been classy to date.

The problem is every club is after an Issac Smith or Josh Kelly type.

[dazzledavey36 52,778]

Jack Steele?

[Fat Tony 5,083]

1 minute ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Jack Steele?

Certainly worth thinking about. I think he is dominating the NEAFL. I am not sure Steele is lightning on the outside, but he looks a good outside player who will go when it is his turn.

Unfortunately we don't have a lot of currency to trade and our salary cap is difficult to manage given Hogan's indecision.

[Adam The God 29,389]

26 minutes ago, ProDee said:

Really ?  Potentially Hunt, Melksham, Hibberd, Salem, etc.  I know Hunt is the only speedster, but I'm not sure it will be an issue.  Melksham's pace is good, but may lack the finishing skills.  There's also Frost who takes it on from the back-half.  I reckon the back-line is coming together nicely if we land Hibberd.

Another inside mid ?  I would've thought a classy outside mid was far more pressing.

I guess my thinking is a classy outside mid is a half back these days. Certainly the style that Goodwin is playing reflects this thinking. Out of the players mentioned, none of them exhibit both speed and class. Hunt you could argue does, but there's a slight question over his kicking for mine. Don't get me wrong though, I'm thinking in a perfect world here, you'd get another classy, speedy half back. But we'll probably be fine without.

If Tyson or Viney go down though, we're significantly weakened, so I want true depth in this area. Sure, a Jones or Vince could step up for a week or two, but they wouldn't cut it weeks on end as elite ball-winning midfielders. We've already seen that this is the case. Their decision making and at times disposal, is questionable.

In short, I'd be happy to not add to our outside pace in favour of gaining another inside mid. I truly believe we're missing one still.

 

Edited August 23, 2016 by A F

[Fat Tony 5,083]

8 minutes ago, A F said:

I guess my thinking is a classy outside mid is a half back these days. Certainly the style that Goodwin is playing reflects this thinking. Out of the players mentioned, none of them exhibit both speed and class. Hunt you could argue does, but there's a slight question over his kicking for mine. Don't get me wrong though, I'm thinking in a perfect world here, you'd get another classy, speedy half back. But we'll probably be fine without.

If Tyson or Viney go down though, we're significantly weakened, so I want true depth in this area. Sure, a Jones or Vince could step up for a week or two, but they wouldn't cut it weeks on end as elite ball-winning midfielders. We've already seen that this is the case. Their decision making and at times disposal, is questionable.

In short, I'd be happy to not add to our outside pace in favour of gaining another inside mid. I truly believe we're missing one still.

 

I know the midfield is where most games are won and lost, but it is not priority IMO. I think Oliver could become every bit as good as Cripps. Brayshaw will also eventually develop into a top line inside mid IMO. Petracca will hopefully eventually be able to take turns in the midfield. We need some pace and skill on the outside for these players to give it to.

Edited August 23, 2016 by Fat Tony
spelling

[Adam The God 29,389]

18 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

I know the midfield is where most games are won and lost, but it is not priority IMO. I think Oliver could become every bit as good as Cripps. Brayshaw will also eventually develop into a top line inside mid IMO. Petracca will hopefully eventually be able to take turns in the midfield. We need some pace and skill on the outside for these players to give it to.

I agree with you on Oliver. Think he'll be a star if he can build his tank. Brayshaw and Petracca will be both guns too. As we've seen though with injuries to key players for some of the top 8 teams as of late, if you can't cover an injury or two (remembering we've had a dream run this year), there's a strong chance you'll miss out on a flag. Exhibit A is the Bulldogs for mine.

[Fat Tony 5,083]

1 minute ago, A F said:

I agree with you on Oliver. Think he'll be a star if he can build his tank. Brayshaw and Petracca will be both guns too. As we've seen though with injuries to key players for some of the top 8 teams as of late, if you can't cover an injury or two (remembering we've had a dream run this year), there's a strong chance you'll miss out on a flag. Exhibit A is the Bulldogs for mine.

I think it is correct to say we would need everything to go right to win the flag. But we also need to be quick enough and skilled enough to compete with GWS, the Bulldogs, Saints etc. and this is what I am more worried about.

[grey wolf 226]

Here is a possible reason for our inconsistency.

On our current list excluding rookies we have 20 players who are inexperienced in that they are 23 or younger and who together could be the future nucleus of our team for the next five years but only as long as they continue to learn and be taught how to play tough and uncompromising football and don't rely on just aging and gaining more experience as ends in themselves.

Of these 20 players the following 6 are the defenders with age then games played so far... Salem 21/29 and Frost 23/36 and OMac 20/13 and Hunt 21/15 and Bugg 23/79 and harmes 21/24

And of the 20 inexperienced these 7 are the forwards Hogan 21/38 and Track 20/13 and Kent 22/49 and JKH 21/22 and Weed 19/1 and Hulett 19/0 and B Ken 22/40

The 7 Mids from the young 20 are Viney 22/66 and Gus 20/27 and Tyson 23/67 and Oliver 19/10 and Stretch 20/23 and ANB 20/14 and King 19/0

So what does it say well only Bugg Tyson and Viney have played over 50 games and they are perhaps the only three you can expect a reasonable level of consistency and if the others are being taught well and if they are receptive to learning they should be kept together for the next 2 or 3 years to learn together especially as there is a nice symmetry between the three facets of defence run and attack.

And then there are the cream those players aged 24 25 26 and 27 who should be the catalysts the fire power the sparks and they are...

Defenders such as Melksham 25/114 and Nev 26/90 and TMac 24/100

Forwards like Watts 25/133 and Jeffy 27/143

Midfielders aka Gawn 25/57 and Pencil 27/36 and Vanders 24/24 and Newton 24/17

And I will tell you what this says without inhaling on my cigar and that is that there is not enough here no where near and you ask where we need to focus our recruiting well dear chap its there one back and one mid and one forward in the 24 or 25 or 26 age group.

And the third tier in this pyramid is the leaders the cool dudes the follow me into battle brigade and what have we got and have we got enough and are the in the right spot well lets see..

Defenders like shoot I cant find anyone who can get a game

Forwards such as Pedersen 29/59 and that's scratching the bottom of the proverbial

But wait theres the middies and you've got Nat Jones 28/219 and Bernie 31/189 and Matt J 29/60

Bugger me could this be another reason for our inability to change gear during a game to get down and dirty to organise ourselves on the ground rather than waiting till the quarter break for suggestions I would certainly entertain it.

And what of the others on the list all of whom seem unable to get out of a scorpions path

Defenders aka Garland 28/141 and Grimes 27/100 and Dunn 19/165

Forwards like Dawes 28/121 and Terls 27/35

Middies such as Trengrove 25/84 (and H 30/223 well who knows)

The ash in this cheroot tray will tell you that Garland, Dunn, Grimes, Dawes, Terls and Trengrove are gone but hopefully we find them another club and the six replacements should be a 24 old midfielder and a 26 year old defender and a 25 year old forward and a 28 year old forward and a 27 year old defender and a 28 year old mid... and lets see where we are in 3 years as long as someone can pick Todd Viney up off the Portsea Pub bar floor.

 

[John Demonic 5,520]

If we're looking for an A grade Elite player. Then we should be looking for an elite leader. What this means is a very intelligent human being. We need to bring in intelligence. As we are a young squad, it is one of our traits that we need to develop. We do have leaders of course, but they are inexperienced. Jones is our most intelligent bloke if you've heard him speak, but he is of course getting older and his physical attributes are beginning to wain and matched with his finals inexperience, it means we're lacking. Watts has that ability, but i suspect he does not have the kind of extroverted and domineering presence enough to get the team up. Maybe that will change as he stamps his mark on more contests in the clinch.

If anyone saw Dangerfield speaking on Talking Footy, you could see how intelligent he is. He's basically more perceptive and intelligent than the 40-50 year old blokes sitting around him. It's a hallmark of the best players of the competition. They are all quick thinking that assess multiple options instantanously and generally choose the right option, intelligent people that can sit on a tv show and provide 20 minutes of thought provoking analysis, Sam Mitchell and Luke Hodge are other examples. That is what you want on the football field.

 

If you think Viney is a shoe in for captain then I think you need to listen to him speak and re-assess whether you want him as THE central leader of the club. No offence to him, but he's not the intelligent elite captain that will take us to a premiership. He's a bull with flair that will no doubt develop his attributes, but he's got a long way to go before he has the right kind of leadership on the field to change the flow of a game.

I don't know who to recruit, But I think we should look at another mature player with leadership qualities. Jones needs AT LEAST a year longer as captain before TWO trade and draft periods have finished and we can  assess where all of our players are at.

Edited August 23, 2016 by johndemons

[thesleepinggiant 160]

17 minutes ago, Fat Tony said:

I think it is correct to say we would need everything to go right to win the flag. But we also need to be quick enough and skilled enough to compete with GWS, the Bulldogs, Saints etc. and this is what I am more worried about.

The saints on equal or close with us with talent but the bulldogs dont come close. Their game style of move it forward as quick as possible can mask this by conscious quick movement. 

Doesnt have to be pretty just effective however it only the skilled sides that beat the bullies so lot to like with us

 

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

Out of interest, what pick did we use to grab Jake [censored] milkman? 

[thesleepinggiant 160]

Just now, Jesse Christ said:

Out of interest, what pick did we use to grab Jake [censored] milkman? 

P25 i think?

[dazzledavey36 52,778]

22 minutes ago, johndemons said:

If we're looking for an A grade Elite player. Then we should be looking for an elite leader. What this means is a very intelligent human being. We need to bring in intelligence. As we are a young squad, it is one of our traits that we need to develop. We do have leaders of course, but they are inexperienced. Jones is our most intelligent bloke if you've heard him speak, but he is of course getting older and his physical attributes are beginning to wain and matched with his finals inexperience, it means we're lacking.

If anyone saw Dangerfield speaking on Talking Footy, you could see how intelligent he is. He's basically more perceptive and intelligent than the 40-50 year old blokes sitting around him. It's a hallmark of the best players of the competition. They are all quick thinking intelligent people that can sit on a tv show and provide 20 minutes of thought provoking analysis, Sam Mitchell and Luke Hodge are other examples. That is what you want on the football field.

 

If you think Viney is a shoe in for captain then I think you need to listen to him speak and re-assess whether you want him as THE central leader of the club. No offence to him, but he's not the intelligent elite captain that will take us to a premiership. He's a bull with flair that will no doubt develop his attributes, but he's got a long way to go before he has the right kind of leadership on the field to change the flow of a game.

I don't know who to recruit, But I think we should look at another mature player with leadership qualities. Jones needs AT LEAST a year longer as captain before TWO trade and draft periods have finished and we can  assess where all of our players are at.

No offense John but this is complete and utter crap. Your basically saying that to become an A grade elite talent you need to have intelligence? since when?

A bloke by the name of Dane Swan retired today and he was a genuine elite A grader. Now if you asked him what 2+2 was he wouldn't know the answer. He wasn't a leader, in fact he hated being in the leadership group. But when it game to game days he was a combative beast who just stood up when it matterd. Nothing to do with intelligence or what University he's doing.

And again your Viney assessment is tripe. Not only does he speak well but he has won games for us this year through sheer will and hard competitive streak thats born inside him. 

Lets not forget Jack is still only 21 and 60 games mark. Still very young but already a mature head who will just continue to grow with more experience and maturity. 

Jack will be a dam fine captain and you will have egg on your face. to go along with it.

Edited August 23, 2016 by dazzledavey36

[olisik 4,060]

Can't remember the last time we actually drafted a player in the 20s. We love trading out our picks in the 20s and do it every year. (Dawes, frost, Melksham) ect 

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

You're right John. We should be looking at recruiting Steven Hawkins and sticking him in the midfield

[John Demonic 5,520]

5 minutes ago, Jesse Christ said:

You're right John. We should be looking at recruiting Steven Hawkins and sticking him in the midfield

How about we just Swap Hogan for Fyfe and stick him in the midfield so he can clear the ball like a machine down to Watts, Wiedemann, Pederson ?

 

That would be another right step in the direction of raising the emotional intelligence of our club.

Edited August 23, 2016 by johndemons

[Biffen 12,839]

4 minutes ago, Jesse Christ said:

You're right John. We should be looking at recruiting Steven Hawkins and sticking him in the midfield

He might get done for travelling too far.

I've heard he is good in space but I still think he could get rolled easily in the contest.

[Demon Disciple 11,655]

2 minutes ago, Biffen said:

He might get done for travelling too far.

I've heard he is good in space but I still think he could get rolled easily in the contest.

He can talk the talk, but cannot walk the walk. I'd stay clear.                                                        What, too far???

 

[Biffen 12,839]

Just now, Demon Disciple said:

He can talk the talk, but cannot walk the walk. I'd stay clear.                                                        What, too far???

 

Comments on this topic are now disabled.

[Melb16 478]

3 hours ago, DV8 said:

Deledio is currently 29yrs as we speak. He isn't really in they're future plans. they are not in the running for next 2 years.  So he will end up delisted by 2018 as they are rebuilding.

they obviously have culture issues at tigerland which have not beeen fixed.  They seem to be like we were amateurish.  So they need some of what we've had matures to help changer things.

The guys I've mentioned have been through the wrong ways,  & have witnessed first hand the right ways, recently.  They will have learned how to go about correcting the wrongs in footy clubs.

This is what the tigers need more than more kids entering into a filthy den.  kids need a good culture to develop within.  this has to occur first before you bring newbies into a diseased environment.  

They're are no inoculations for this disease.

 

michie, terllich, jones, your showing youre immaturity and ignorance, of cultures in footy.  you seem to think its all about talent, but it is not.

its all about what is done with the talent, how it is grown.

They may very well move Deledio on. But they aren't doing it for 2 players currently in the VFL. 

Plus, Grimes is a free agent they can get for free and Dawes will unlikely get a contract with us.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

7 minutes ago, Biffen said:

He might get done for travelling too far.

I've heard he is good in space but I still think he could get rolled easily in the contest.

Nicely played. 

[John Demonic 5,520]

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

No offense John but this is complete and utter crap. Your basically saying that to become an A grade elite talent you need to have intelligence? since when?

 

What I should of emphasised was the general trait of the best footballers and leaders is their intelligence. There are of course outliers and exceptions. Viney might be one of those. But as it stands, Melbourne plays dumb football when things are not going their way and they do not adapt well enough and could use more footballers with a higher football IQ that have the physical abilities to swing a game when its needed.

I think he needs time, so do you. Yes, he's very young and will develop but I think it will be a lot longer than you think. I hope I have egg on my face. 

 

1 hour ago, dazzledavey36 said:

A bloke by the name of Dane Swan retired today and he was a genuine elite A grader. Now if you asked him what 2+2 was he wouldn't know the answer. He wasn't a leader, in fact he hated being in the leadership group. But when it game to game days he was a combative beast who just stood up when it matterd. Nothing to do with intelligence or what University he's doing.

By the way Dazzle, Dane Swan plays up the 'dumb' character for laughs. It's half a put on. He might appear slow (probably from drug and alcohol use) but he is clearly an intelligent footballer that reads the play well. I'm not talking about academic intelligence, i'm talking about an adaptable thought process that can make quick assessments as to what the team needs to do and then directs players around them and implement changes based on what has been learnt from the coaches and tacticians. It's not only verbally, but with their ball movement. How they bring others into the play, where they kick the ball. They understand and they communicate so that others understand.

I'm not saying catagoricaly that Viney cannot develop that aspect of his game, just that he's far away from being captain material at this stage as i'd say he is more of a one gear bullocking player right now and with Jones progressively getting older, I think we either need to recruit in more leaders or have a 'bridge' captain like Watts between the older generation and the current 18-22 year old crop of developing leaders. Maybe the 'bridge' captain will be a premiership captain.

I edit these comments so much that you can see that i'm clearly not a quick thinking sharp tool in the shed. Just adding my two cents for what it's worth. Not trying to put any player down if it came across that way.

 

Edited August 23, 2016 by johndemons

[stevethemanjordan 6,952]

If it hasn't been obvious enough this season to some, it should be now after Saturday.

We need some serious kicking skills. Injected all over the field.

Kicking skills and class. 

[Left Foot Snap 2,347]

2 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

No offense John but this is complete and utter crap. Your basically saying that to become an A grade elite talent you need to have intelligence? since when?

A bloke by the name of Dane Swan retired today and he was a genuine elite A grader. Now if you asked him what 2+2 was he wouldn't know the answer. He wasn't a leader, in fact he hated being in the leadership group. But when it game to game days he was a combative beast who just stood up when it matterd. Nothing to do with intelligence or what University he's doing.

And again your Viney assessment is tripe. Not only does he speak well but he has won games for us this year through sheer will and hard competitive streak thats born inside him. 

Lets not forget Jack is still only 21 and 60 games mark. Still very young but already a mature head who will just continue to grow with more experience and maturity. 

Jack will be a dam fine captain and you will have egg on your face. to go along with it.

Agree DD. Viney oozes leadership. I have ever seen him speak where I doubted his intelligence. We should never confuse drive and single mindness with simple minded. Jack is not simple. He is focussed. When you lead your message doesn't have to be complex. It needs to be uderstood. As Jack gets older he will naturally speak with more wisdom, but he will already have his teammates following him.

[Ted Lasso 18,783]

Gotta look at the Giants, we have a great trading relationship with them and they have some really good young talent that hasn't been able to get on the park

players like Ahearn and Picket were top 10 super talented picks but have been constantly injured and might be worth looking at ( i haven't been following them so not sure how good they are these days) but both were guns in the under age comp