Where to for Jack Grimes?

[Ted Lasso 16,903]

He's a limited footballer unfortunately and a lot of players are overtaking him, absolute ripper bloke so would love him to come good but unfortunately i don't see a position for him in the side this year, or going forward beyond handy depth. 

[daisycutter 28,629]

18 minutes ago, jackaub said:

Stats from 2015

Disposal efficiency 81.5% - second in the team

Clangers 1.9 per game average   all players  1.8

Tackles 2.4 per game

Marks 5.8 per game

far from our worst at the moment

interesting stats ja. our jack is quite an enigma! his bad stuff always seems to stand out and his good stuff goes unsighted. whatever, he never looks creative or flashy, more like your worker drone which probably colours some poster's impressions.

this year will decide if he is just good depth or he can cement a place

[P-man 13,224]

Never should've switched to number 31 (joking....kinda).

His NAB3 wasn't great, so the timing of the thread doesn't help his cause too much. He has played a lot better than that.

The older brigade (Grimes, Garland, Dunn to an extent) can at times look a step behind the pace of the newer players in terms of decisonmaking. It's sticking out more with the acquisition of players like Oliver and Kennedy who are smart and quick with their ball use.

i do however think you could do a lot worse for depth than Grimes. Whether he's happy staying on as depth is another matter.

I hope we see the best of him this season. He's a good clubman.

[Akum 2,660]

1 hour ago, daisycutter said:

interesting stats ja. our jack is quite an enigma! his bad stuff always seems to stand out and his good stuff goes unsighted. whatever, he never looks creative or flashy, more like your worker drone which probably colours some poster's impressions.

this year will decide if he is just good depth or he can cement a place

... Or, in other words, there's a tendency to exaggerate his bad stuff & neglect his good stuff, in a way that's not supported by the stats.

What stands out about Grimes in that 2009 match compared to later years is his decisiveness. When he gets the ball, he instantly makes up his mind what to do with it and executes well, for the most part. For 9 games, he had excellent footy smarts, both in terms of positioning and disposal, with an ability to read the play 2 or 3 moves ahead.

The Grimes of c.2012 to 2015 would get the ball in space, first go one way then another, then a third, by which time 3 or 4 good leads have evaporated, then under pressure hurries a nothing kick down the line to a contest which occasionally goes over. The trouble with "this" Grimes is that in his leadership role he simply tried sooooooo hard to do everything Neeld's way, but this meant having to go against his natural instinct, so he was second-guessing a lot of the time, so his decisiveness was knocked out of him. As a consequence, he's probably the one whose game has been worst affected by the Neeld debacle.

From what we've seen so far in 2016, he seems to be back to taking the first option and trusting his instinct, like in 2009 & 2010. This is what Roos has been trying to get him to do for the past 2 seasons. And playing further forward - on the wing rather than HBF - seems to have helped this. And he has the added asset of being able to play tight when needed, so that if an opposing small forward starts to look dangerous or get on top of Jetta, he's good insurance to have in the team.

But he'll be under much more pressure in the real season, and whether he can maintain it (going hard with the first option) remains to be seen, along with whether he's actually best 22 or not. I'd say they'll probably lean toward experience rather than youth in the first couple of games, so he'll probably start the season in the 22. But if he doesn't perform at or near his best, he'll be overtaken sooner rather than later by the younger options. The same probably applies to Lumumba & perhaps Garland.

[Deespicable 2,553]

Thanks for the stats Jackaub and the video is a cracking reminder of what an amazing find we thought we had back then. 

Clearly his high disposals efficiency last year shows he's one of those players that we look for and dwell on his errors these days, and those in the he's no good camp, can use the fact that Roosy and the selectors left him out regularly last season to point to his deficiencies.

I reckon he lost a bit of ground a few years back when he had a shoulder injury and as a result had more difficulty shrugging tackles and in some cases landing them.

Since then everyone views him as slow with his decision making yet he's one of the smartest blokes in the side and you invariably see him waiting for the right option to present before delivering. And on top of that he's often having to play on the left-hand side of the park which is a hell of a lot harder for a right-footer hugging the boundary.

Our style of play this year means we are looking for a pacy runner off half-back so he won't get a gig there anymore, but the wing does suit him because he's so fit and he just keeps presenting. 

He'll never be a dynamic player like many of our young group, but he's still a very useful member of the team and now that he has pace around him, perfect for our side.

Sadly however I think Roosy will again do the dirty on him and make him emergency for Round 1. 

 

[DeeZee 6,779]

Half back flank or back pocket is his position but there are a few ahead of him in Jetta, Bugg and Salem, with White and Wagner being groomed and Melksham putting more pressure on next season.

[dee-luded 2,958]

27 minutes ago, Akum said:

... Or, in other words, there's a tendency to exaggerate his bad stuff & neglect his good stuff, in a way that's not supported by the stats.

What stands out about Grimes in that 2009 match compared to later years is his decisiveness. When he gets the ball, he instantly makes up his mind what to do with it and executes well, for the most part. For 9 games, he had excellent footy smarts, both in terms of positioning and disposal, with an ability to read the play 2 or 3 moves ahead.

The Grimes of c.2012 to 2015 would get the ball in space, first go one way then another, then a third, by which time 3 or 4 good leads have evaporated, then under pressure hurries a nothing kick down the line to a contest which occasionally goes over. The trouble with "this" Grimes is that in his leadership role he simply tried sooooooo hard to do everything Neeld's way, but this meant having to go against his natural instinct, so he was second-guessing a lot of the time, so his decisiveness was knocked out of him. As a consequence, he's probably the one whose game has been worst affected by the Neeld debacle.

From what we've seen so far in 2016, he seems to be back to taking the first option and trusting his instinct, like in 2009 & 2010. This is what Roos has been trying to get him to do for the past 2 seasons. And playing further forward - on the wing rather than HBF - seems to have helped this. And he has the added asset of being able to play tight when needed, so that if an opposing small forward starts to look dangerous or get on top of Jetta, he's good insurance to have in the team.

But he'll be under much more pressure in the real season, and whether he can maintain it (going hard with the first option) remains to be seen, along with whether he's actually best 22 or not. I'd say they'll probably lean toward experience rather than youth in the first couple of games, so he'll probably start the season in the 22. But if he doesn't perform at or near his best, he'll be overtaken sooner rather than later by the younger options. The same probably applies to Lumumba & perhaps Garland.

 

'the flood'  hurt him in that Melbourne side,   & now,  just maybe,  with the cap on rotations starting,,,  may just help him back.

[Bossdog 2,002]

2 hours ago, Good Times Grimes said:

I'm not sure that I've said anything unreasonable in my post. I talked up his ability while also highlighting that his game isn't what it used to be; anybody that watches that video will find that hard to deny. Somebody that plays like he did in his 9th AFL game should only improve, whereas in Grimes' case that hasn't been so. I reckon he's a great clubman and seems like a fantastic guy, but there is no doubt that he's going to struggle to be in the 22 this season.

Just because someone points out a player's deficiencies doesn't mean that they're making that player a whipping boy. 

Not having a go but it seems to me that every miss kick Grimes does is highlighted by many on here.

When any other player miss kicks not a word is said on here except Garland who seems to be another whipping boy.

When either of these two does something good or places a kick onto the chest of a teammate nothing is said but if Salem or Olivier do it, Demondland turns to rapture..

 

[FireInTheBennelly 4,026]

Needs the number 16 back.

[nutbean 8,837]

27 minutes ago, Bossdog said:

Not having a go but it seems to me that every miss kick Grimes does is highlighted by many on here.

When any other player miss kicks not a word is said on here except Garland who seems to be another whipping boy.

When either of these two does something good or places a kick onto the chest of a teammate nothing is said but if Salem or Olivier do it, Demondland turns to rapture..

 

I think the reason people pick miskicks from Grimes and Garland is because of the context of the kick.

Their miskicks stick in the mind because they seem to do it more than others when under relatively no pressure.

So the one that stuck in my mind on Sunday was Garlands switch to Grimes  - when he was under no pressure at all and it missed him by a fair way and dribbled out of bounds. 

 

 

 

[mo64 5,209]

1 hour ago, Akum said:

... Or, in other words, there's a tendency to exaggerate his bad stuff & neglect his good stuff, in a way that's not supported by the stats.

 

Or it just goes to show that stats don't always tell the true picture of a players performance. Backmen will generally have a higher DE% than mids because quite often they are allowed to chip a 20m kick sideways without pressure. That also distorts average marks per game. 

If you can't see that Grimes isn't the same player that he was in 2009, you're watching the game with blinkers. Nobody on here dislikes Grimes, so it's not a personal thing when many point out that his game has regressed. Even the FD didn't think he was best 22 for round 1 last year. Were they exaggerating his poor play?

[picket fence 15,322]

In answering the main question CASEY for mine!

[Binmans PA 26,277]

11 hours ago, Good Times Grimes said:

MelbourneDemonsFooty has been kind enough to upload the final quarter of our Round 14, 2009 match against West Coast that we won by 20pts. While the overall standard is pretty low, one player that caught my eye (and received lots of praise from the commentators) is Jack Grimes. His last quarter was just about as good as you'll see from a half back flanker. He took a tonne of marks, his kicking was precise, he ran to support his teammates, he took the game on, and he just had an air of confidence about him. His final stat line for the game included 16 marks, 29 disposals at 79.3% efficiency and 0 clangers. He also received a Rising Star nomination and 3 Brownlow votes for his performance. These stats are made more remarkable when you consider that it was only his 9th game of footy. Watching this game got me thinking that 2009 Jack Grimes is exactly the type of player that our backline needs.

So what's happened with Grimes since then, and what does the future hold for him? It seems that 2016 could be the most important year of his career, and many on here have written him off already. This game is evidence that he has the ability to be a gun, but after watching him over the past few years his form has continued to dip and his skills have become a liability. Are his issues solely rooted in a lack of confidence in his own abilities? 

I think it's undisputed that the captaincy placed an unreasonable burden on Grimes at a time in his career when he should have been focusing on improving his own game rather than leading his teammates. I think it's also undisputed that he has gone from being one of our most promising young players to someone that is at risk of not being on the list at the end of the season.

I'm of the view that his game has deteriorated as a result of him not focusing enough on his own game in key developmental years and the best chance he has to resurrect his career would be to start playing some footy without having any pressure put on him. I'd like to see Grimes go back to Casey for the first half of the season and play in his natural HBF position. He needs to rebuild his confidence, and I think the best way for him to do this is to play a decent stretch of games in an environment where there isn't the same level of pressure to perform as there is in the seniors. If he can manage to regain the form that he showed early in his career it will go a long way towards making us become a successful side. 

 

 

For me in this clip, he still does exactly what he does now. He marks a ball. He then takes a few steps backwards and takes a few extra seconds to assess the next kick. The game is too quick for this now. Even since 2009, the game has changed dramatically. You have to get the ball moving quickly and Grimes is literally the only one that doesn't consistently. You watch the St Kilda replay and every time he gets it, he will take a few steps back and assess the options.

I've never been a fan of Grimes as a footballer as many of my posts will attest. I've liked him as a clubman and I hope he can improve his game this year, but I think he's one of those with just too many scars to re-program. I wouldn't necessarily be unhappy if they gave him a rookie spot though at the end of this year. 

Edited March 17, 2016 by AdamFarr

[Sir Why You Little 34,640]

5 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

For me in this clip, he still does exactly what he does now. He marks a ball. He then takes a few steps backwards and takes a few extra seconds to assess the next kick. The game is too quick for this now. Even since 2009, the game has changed dramatically. You have to get the ball moving quickly and Grimes is literally the only one that doesn't consistently. You watch the St Kilda replay and every time he gets it, he will take a few steps back and assess the options.

I've never been a fan of Grimes as a footballer as many of my posts will attest. I've liked him as a clubman and I hope he can improve his game this year, but I think he's one of those with just too many scars to re-program. I wouldn't necessarily be unhappy if they gave him a rookie spot though at the end of this year. 

Ahh yes back when he wore the number 16

before Schwab reprogrammed him....

[Farmer 693]

59 minutes ago, AdamFarr said:

For me in this clip, he still does exactly what he does now. He marks a ball. He then takes a few steps backwards and takes a few extra seconds to assess the next kick. The game is too quick for this now. Even since 2009, the game has changed dramatically. You have to get the ball moving quickly and Grimes is literally the only one that doesn't consistently. You watch the St Kilda replay and every time he gets it, he will take a few steps back and assess the options.

I've never been a fan of Grimes as a footballer as many of my posts will attest. I've liked him as a clubman and I hope he can improve his game this year, but I think he's one of those with just too many scars to re-program. I wouldn't necessarily be unhappy if they gave him a rookie spot though at the end of this year. 

Look, that's just not right! I HAVE watched the StK game several times. I also watched game 1 v PA more than once.

another poster has made the point that he invariably plays on the wrong side for a right foot kick. If he is to kick with the natural foot he turns inward toward the centre. If playing on the other flank, it is entirely different and a hell of a lot easier.

on one occasion on Sunday Grimes got the ball in heavy traffic and turned onto his left foot. Whilst being tackled he pin pointed a teammate 45m up the ground. As someone else has said, if Salem did that G Healy would have raved about it. Instead, the commentators went on talking about Hogan's off kicking day. Last year's stats don't lie! His successful disposal percentage is as high as anyone

one other point. No-one these days seems to pay any attention to a player's defensive skills. In 2014 he shut down M White for PA to the extent that White was benched in the last quarter, having had 3 disposals.. Apart from Jetta ( who is better closer to goal) he is the best shut-down defender we have.

[DeeSpencer 23,249]

15 minutes ago, Farmer said:

Look, that's just not right! I HAVE watched the StK game several times. I also watched game 1 v PA more than once.

another poster has made the point that he invariably plays on the wrong side for a right foot kick. If he is to kick with the natural foot he turns inward toward the centre. If playing on the other flank, it is entirely different and a hell of a lot easier.

on one occasion on Sunday Grimes got the ball in heavy traffic and turned onto his left foot. Whilst being tackled he pin pointed a teammate 45m up the ground. As someone else has said, if Salem did that G Healy would have raved about it. Instead, the commentators went on talking about Hogan's off kicking day. Last year's stats don't lie! His successful disposal percentage is as high as anyone

one other point. No-one these days seems to pay any attention to a player's defensive skills. In 2014 he shut down M White for PA to the extent that White was benched in the last quarter, having had 3 disposals.. Apart from Jetta ( who is better closer to goal) he is the best shut-down defender we have.

He really isn't. Salem and even Lumumba are better defensively. Part of the reason Grimes was dropped so often last year was his defensive work was struggling. He doesn't read the play quick enough these days and he's easily out smarted. 

He had a few really good plays on the weekend, and in the other 2 games. Most posters on here have given him credit for that.

Anyway, the main problem with Grimes is the errors that come from him looking like a dear in the headlights. Not attacking contests, not evading opponents, kicking in a hurry or taking too long to kick. 

The errors themselves are bad enough, but the lack of confidence and effect on the team I think is almost worse.