THE BOMBERS' SWISS ADVENTURE

[daisycutter 29,616]

41 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'm not sure if your question is rhetorical, but Dank fits into that category of "celebrity" which our media seem to love. Others in that list include Geoffrey Edelsten and his various ex-wives and partners, Warwick Capper and Mark Jackson. (While Capper and Jackson played football, the media love them today for anything but their former football lives.) Unfortunately, the media love for these (non)-celebrities says more about us, the consumer of the media, than it does about the media themselves.

quite agree and know all that

but i don't agree on your last argument, there is no reason that the media has to reflect (and glorify) the standards of the lower strata of society. and even if they do sometimes where are the articles emphasising the other side of the coin and providing some balance. you can't avoid criticism of the media perspective merely on the basis that they just represent the lowest common multiple of the consumer...........or can you?.......maybe you can.......sad   

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,795]

20 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

quite agree and know all that

but i don't agree on your last argument, there is no reason that the media has to reflect (and glorify) the standards of the lower strata of society. and even if they do sometimes where are the articles emphasising the other side of the coin and providing some balance. you can't avoid criticism of the media perspective merely on the basis that they just represent the lowest common multiple of the consumer...........or can you?.......maybe you can.......sad   

I'm not sure now whether you're agreeing with me or not. But what much of the media produces is, unfortunately, based on a quantity rather than quality model. That is, it's all about numbers of eyeballs (or ears, for the audio media) and not the critical thought that might go on in the brain behind. 

[daisycutter 29,616]

18 minutes ago, La Dee-vina Comedia said:

I'm not sure now whether you're agreeing with me or not. But what much of the media produces is, unfortunately, based on a quantity rather than quality model. That is, it's all about numbers of eyeballs (or ears, for the audio media) and not the critical thought that might go on in the brain behind. 

of course that's obvious, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't be critical and just accept it. that's a sure prescription for more of the same (and more "danks celebrities")

[Willmoy1947 4,091]

6 hours ago, jnrmac said:

Has he said anything noteworthy to anyone anywhere that is of use?

Full of hot air pizz and wind.

 

Old Hawks used to fly in the wind.....

[Macca 16,972]

5 hours ago, daisycutter said:

of course that's obvious, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't be critical and just accept it. that's a sure prescription for more of the same (and more "danks celebrities")

Journalistic standards are dropping and have dropped because newspapers are becoming a thing of the past (in real terms) 

It's more about what 'Sells' more than it's ever been ...TV & radio tend to follow the story and tackling hard issues gets relegated in the name of ratings.

The misrepresentation, misreporting and withheld information during the 3 years of the Essendon saga highlighted all that ... most of the public were kept in the dark because of the cheerleading that went on ... more so in protecting brand AFL rather than Essendon. 

By default Essendon were protected because they are a large part of the AFL ... "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is at the heart of the matter. 

'Clean sport' became an irrelevancy.  About the only time our media arks up about PED use is when it's about the Olympics.  When it's closer to home it's time to clam-up. 

The double standards are astonishing. And those double standards are also quite prevelant with the general public.  So the media feed the masses what they want to see and hear. 

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

2 minutes ago, Macca said:

Journalistic standards are dropping and have dropped because newspapers are becoming a thing of the past (in real terms) 

It's more about what 'Sells' more than it's ever been ...TV & radio tend to follow the story and tackling hard issues gets relegated in the name of ratings.

The misrepresentation, misreporting and withheld information during the 3 years of the Essendon saga highlighted all that ... most of the public were kept in the dark because of the cheerleading that went on ... more so in protecting brand AFL rather than Essendon. 

By default Essendon were protected because they are a large part of the AFL ... "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is at the heart of the matter. 

'Clean sport' became an irrelevancy.  About the only time our media arks up about PED use is when it's about the Olympics.  When it's closer to home it's time to clam-up. 

The double standards are astonishing. And those double standards are also quite prevelant with the general public.  So the media feed the masses what they want to see and hear. 

 

George Orwell 1984 is now the reality...

[Macca 16,972]

18 minutes ago, Sir Why You Little said:

George Orwell 1984 is now the reality...

The AFL were given a perfect opportunity to up the ante when the Essendon scandal first broke. 

Instead of that, nothing has changed and the door has been left wide open for would-be drug cheats. 

[daisycutter 29,616]

22 minutes ago, Macca said:

 

The double standards are astonishing. And those double standards are also quite prevelant with the general public.  So the media feed the masses what they want to see and hear. 

 

there is a large number of the general public who disagree but are largely (not totally) powerless to do much about it. a lot of the "feeding" is also more about reducing costs than really giving people what they really want. but we could go on and on about whether it is the chicken or the egg.

......except we can do something about it, by not buying newspapers, and watching fta or cable tv...........which is exactly what's happening. though the alternative (digital) is not necessarily better, but at least you get more options to choose your content 

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

5 minutes ago, Macca said:

The AFL were given a perfect opportunity to up the ante when the Essendon scandal first broke. 

Instead of that, nothing has changed and the door has been left wide open for would-be drug cheats. 

Absolutely. The AFL are part of the problem. 

I fkn hate the AFL. It has all gone downhill since Wayne Jackson. 

Broadcast Revenue is all that really matters..

The Games are becoming a side issue...

[Macca 16,972]

20 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

there is a large number of the general public who disagree but are largely (not totally) powerless to do much about it. a lot of the "feeding" is also more about reducing costs than really giving people what they really want. but we could go on and on about whether it is the chicken or the egg.

......except we can do something about it, by not buying newspapers, and watching fta or cable tv...........which is exactly what's happening. though the alternative (digital) is not necessarily better, but at least you get more options to choose your content 

I'm not sure that many genuinely care enough for change to happen. For instance,  attitudes to PED use in this country is largely one of denial and/or ambivilence. 

Who talks about "clean sport" in this country?  

Most are either blissfully unaware or they don't care anyway ... or they simply don't believe or don't want to believe that we're capable of cheating like athletes do overseas.

The whole Essendon & Cronulla scandals hasn't changed the thinking much either.  It should have but many just want to blame Dank and not that many want to blame the players at all. 

Yet when it's about overseas athletes we often point the finger without a moments thought. 

[Trisul 664]

Reckon you guys are over thinking it.  Surely the emphasis on Dank has a purpose...

[Macca 16,972]

Just now, Trisul said:

Reckon you guys are over thinking it.  Surely the emphasis on Dank has a purpose...

To sell newspapers ... there doesn't have to be an end game or a real purpose.  Meanwhile, the real issue gets ignored or pushed aside.  

I'm of the belief that PED use worldwide will never be reeled back in but we might be able to have clean sport here in this country. 

But we're doing no more than anywhere else except with the agreement we have with WADA re penalties. 

As for testing standards and procedures and the amount of testing .... it's token. 1 urine test per player per season in the AFL isnt going to get it done. 

[Chris 2,892]

1 hour ago, Macca said:

Journalistic standards are dropping and have dropped because newspapers are becoming a thing of the past (in real terms) 

It's more about what 'Sells' more than it's ever been ...TV & radio tend to follow the story and tackling hard issues gets relegated in the name of ratings.

The misrepresentation, misreporting and withheld information during the 3 years of the Essendon saga highlighted all that ... most of the public were kept in the dark because of the cheerleading that went on ... more so in protecting brand AFL rather than Essendon. 

By default Essendon were protected because they are a large part of the AFL ... "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is at the heart of the matter. 

'Clean sport' became an irrelevancy.  About the only time our media arks up about PED use is when it's about the Olympics.  When it's closer to home it's time to clam-up. 

The double standards are astonishing. And those double standards are also quite prevelant with the general public.  So the media feed the masses what they want to see and hear. 

 

Don't forget the noose around the neck of the reporters in the form of AFL accreditation. The best, most accurate, and most consistent reporting of this has come from journos not betrothed to the AFL. Carro is the one who is betrothed who has been pretty good on this.

[daisycutter 29,616]

5 minutes ago, Chris said:

Don't forget the noose around the neck of the reporters in the form of AFL accreditation. The best, most accurate, and most consistent reporting of this has come from journos not betrothed to the AFL. Carro is the one who is betrothed who has been pretty good on this.

it's a good point chris, but i wonder how much the noose is real or perceived. another problem is so many of the afl journos are ex players, coaches and administrators so there is still that collective herd mentality.....as distinct from more detatched objective qualified and trained "real" journalists

[Chris 2,892]

1 minute ago, daisycutter said:

it's a good point chris, but i wonder how much the noose is real or perceived. another problem is so many of the afl journos are ex players, coaches and administrators so there is still that collective herd mentality.....as distinct from more detatched objective qualified and trained "real" journalists

The noose is very real but it looser the more experience and profile you have. A junior journo would never have got away with what Caro was publishing. 

[daisycutter 29,616]

31 minutes ago, Chris said:

The noose is very real but it looser the more experience and profile you have. A junior journo would never have got away with what Caro was publishing. 

if they stuck together better and picked their targets astutely they could loosen that noose, but there is not enough made of the right (journalistic) stuff

[daisycutter 29,616]

AFL oblivious to the concept of conflict of interest

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/teams/essendon/essendon-doping-saga-secret-cas-hearing-transcripts-reveal-afls-hird-hit/news-story/fabb213b37c70f40cb5055d0f3bbc338

[xarronn 380]

21 hours ago, Macca said:

The AFL were given a perfect opportunity to up the ante when the Essendon scandal first broke. 

Instead of that, nothing has changed and the door has been left wide open for would-be drug cheats. 

I'm completely mystified that you claim this to be the case. Do you really think that any club could go down the Essendon path again through the force of personality of the coach? Do you think any club doctor would not blow the whistle in future? Do you think players won't question what they are taking and check them out independently? I could go on, in so may ways most things have changed.

Some posters want nothing less than that Essendon should have been destroyed and the fact that the AFL penalties were short of that demonstrates that the AFL is corrupt. I don't agree with that. It's always easier for people who don't have to shoulder the responsibilities and consequences to propose extreme measures. 

As an aside, don't forget that the AFL faced a lot of criticism and opposition from News Ltd, Essendon supporters and legal challenges from the club and Hird.

[Macca 16,972]

3 hours ago, xarronn said:

I'm completely mystified that you claim this to be the case. Do you really think that any club could go down the Essendon path again through the force of personality of the coach? Do you think any club doctor would not blow the whistle in future? Do you think players won't question what they are taking and check them out independently? I could go on, in so may ways most things have changed.

I assume that any given player at any given club might be tempted with PED use.  I also believe that a large majority won't be tempted ... but which ones?

Anyway, I never said that a club would or could go down the path that Essendon took.  My posts in the last page or 2 of this thread were referring to would-be cheats at any club or perhaps small groups of individuals who might use PED's ... again, at any club.  But mostly individuals.

Many or most drug cheats act independently and whilst the AFL's policy is to only test (on average) one player per season with one urine test, that leaves the door open for any would-be drug cheats at any club.

The low levels of testing probably led to Essendon taking the path that they did too.  And the levels of testing hasn't changed since the Essendon scandal broke.  Nothing has changed.  There's probably greater awareness but a player having greater awareness could use that to his own advantage.

It would be dead easy to take PED's as an AFL player and get away with it based on the lack of testing and the fact that the testing isn't thorough enough.  Blood tests on a weekly/fortnightly basis (and by default blood passports) is world's best practice and we are miles away from those sorts of levels of testing.

And you won't be seeing or hearing many opinions like mine either - rusted on footy fans generally don't want to know about this sort of stuff and our sporting media is often hopelessly compromised as well.  If anyone thinks that our sportspeople in Australia don't or won't cheat like others do overseas then I'm going to disagree with that type of thinking. 

I'm by no means saying that drug cheats represent a large majority of sportspeople in any country in any sport ... I reckon it ranges between 2% and 5% but that figure can vary from sport to sport.  However, in the whole scheme of things, those numbers are way too high. I also believe that the large majority of clean athletes shouldn't have to compete against cheats. 

Why would footy be any different? ... after all, we've seen a whole club and most of it's players get done for PED use ... same goes for the NRL & Cronulla.  The players of those clubs had a choice and they took the wrong option.  And they ended up paying the price.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2016 by Macca

[xarronn 380]

3 hours ago, Macca said:

I assume that any given player at any given club might be tempted with PED use.  I also believe that a large majority won't be tempted ... but which ones?

Anyway, I never said that a club would or could go down the path that Essendon took.  My posts in the last page or 2 of this thread were referring to would-be cheats at any club or perhaps small groups of individuals who might use PED's ... again, at any club.  But mostly individuals.

Many or most drug cheats act independently and whilst the AFL's policy is to only test (on average) one player per season with one urine test, that leaves the door open for any would-be drug cheats at any club.

The low levels of testing probably led to Essendon taking the path that they did too.  And the levels of testing hasn't changed since the Essendon scandal broke.  Nothing has changed.  There's probably greater awareness but a player having greater awareness could use that to his own advantage.

 

Ok, I don't disagree with the first bolded statement. I responded to what I thought was a broad assertion the AFL had done nothing to dissuade future cheating by clubs.

As for the second bolded statement, Of course I don't know for sure, but my take on what Hird initiated was that he didn't set out to breach the rules, just to fly as close to the edge as possible to get whatever advantage he could and which he seemed to believe several other clubs were getting. It was kept a secret for the same reason clubs develop strategies and try to keep them secret. Dank clearly lied about what he was giving the players.

So what I am saying is, I don't think the Essendon program was initiated because of the low levels of testing.

[Trisul 664]

On 8/26/2016 at 5:49 PM, Macca said:

To sell newspapers ... there doesn't have to be an end game or a real purpose.  Meanwhile, the real issue gets ignored or pushed aside. 

Dank doesn't help them sell newspapers.  Well, no more than any other LOUDNOISES.  He does however help them continue to sell the narrative (evil mad bad scientist did it). 

[beelzebub 23,378]

On 8/26/2016 at 6:13 PM, daisycutter said:

it's a good point chris, but i wonder how much the noose is real or perceived. another problem is so many of the afl journos are ex players, coaches and administrators so there is still that collective herd mentality.....as distinct from more detatched objective qualified and trained "real" journalists

I saw what you did there 

[Bluey's Dad 3,419]

On 26/08/2016 at 4:34 PM, Sir Why You Little said:

George Orwell 1984 is now the reality...

HA, you might be right there!

We are at war with Essendon. ASADA are our allies.

We are at war with ASADA. Essendon are our allies.

I await news of the chocolate ration with bated breath. I'm certain that it will be increased.

Now if you'll excuse me, I don't want to be late for my 2 minutes hate.

I love AFL.

[Mazer Rackham 14,971]

6 hours ago, Choke said:

HA, you might be right there!

We are at war with Essendon. ASADA are our allies.

We are at war with ASADA. Essendon are our allies.

I await news of the chocolate ration with bated breath. I'm certain that it will be increased.

Now if you'll excuse me, I don't want to be late for my 2 minutes hate.

I love AFL.

In other news, the number of missions has been increased to 50.

[Ted Lasso 19,518]

Hypercritical scum had a go at the MFC and questioned our integrity and accused us for breaking the rules and chasing Michael Hibberd in season ... only to do the exact same thing to the Eagles with Mitch Brown and Eric Mackenzie, which the WCE are rightly not happy about on the eve of finals.

They are hands down the worst team in the comp on just about every front.