Lay off Jack Watts...

[The Reverend 1,736]

With regard to Effective Disposal stat... Possibly in total ED but on averages he is ranked 14th in the team so far this year. Not that far away but not in the top 10.

You have used the "marks" stat. Contested marks stat is considered by some to be a more telling stat. In this stat he ranks 14th as well on team averages so far this year.

Goal Assist (averages) he ranks 3rd so far behind Michie (1 game only!!??) and JKH. Still a decent result.

To be fair to Watts he is 3rd in marks inside 50 and 4th in goals so far.

Note: 4 games is not really a meaningful sample size to rank players. Probably need at least 8 weeks or more for more meaningful trends. The above rankings are based on "team averages" not totals for the season.

I think Roosey & assistants might also be having similar option issues and this would not only be with an out of form Watts (ie., not wanting to single him out). In general our list really lacks depth to pressure the bottom fringe players in the teem on a weekly basis unless we pretty much have a fully fit list at our disposal.

As a result I would suspect any out of form (or inconsistent) players will still be getting a gig until the end of season until Roos has another go at the draft and is able to top up even further.

Things could get even more exciting for us in 2016 if the next draft is anything like the last 2!

Nice to see a rational, considered response. I agree that four weeks is not long enough to be making judgements but some on here are ready to hang JW after that amount of time. I think we all need to take a deep breath and wait a while before we start calling for him to dropped. My point is simply that he is contributing more than some others at this point. Just because he is the subject of great expectations doesn't mean he should be singled out. Surely we have high expectations of every player in red and blue.

[Macca 16,970]

Completely disagree. The only reason this thread and the numerous others on the topic get any airtime at all is for precisely that reason. If he were taken at pick 30-odd I doubt people would question his spot in the side nearly as much.

Sure there are parts of his game obviously lacking but he is top four at the club for marks and goals, top 10 for disposals and, last week aside, is our best and most creative user of the footy. He isn't an aggressive animal but his appetite for the contest and his work rate have clearly improved as well. He is far from our worst despite the constant attention which he must surely wonder what he ever did to deserve.

You're right of course but most people will stick to their argument that they're not taking any notice of his draft pick number.

If you do a search you'll find there are hundreds of threads on our top end end picks (Watts has over 200) yet later draft picks hardly get much attention at all. Sylvia has over 150 threads and he just happens to be a pick 3.

Many people will acknowledge that the draft is not a very accurate measure and is largely flawed but many of those same people still refer back to drafts as if those drafts are accurate.

Since the inception of the draft (1986) more than half of all the 1st round draft picks have become busts (in terms of expectations)

The forgotten drafts

.

Edited April 30, 2015 by Macca

[beelzebub 23,376]

4 weeks reverend ?

Thought Jack had a few more than that under his belt.

We'll just wait another four...and maybd four fours for good measure.

Doesn't really matter as it seems hes Jack the untouchable.

All sarcasm aside its just as if not more dangerous to continually leave a player in, on the the reasoning of building confidence and establishing consistency as it is to give them a chance to do just that on an arena where they can.

What some here are suggesting is it might be better to allow Jack to refine his game, build standards and explore effective physicality in the game ( in the magoos)

Then bring it to the higher level.

Seems the club is reverting to animal farm rules.

Were not playing finals this year. We're still building this team. No room for favourites.

This notion that everyone is there purely on merit must be lining up to be questioned.

[binman 42,972]

Oh for pets sake Bob do you honestly think roos would have picked him all last season and again this year if he wasn't best 22? Watts would be one of the fist picked not on the fringe.

4 games? Don't worry about that sample size. Look at at last years stats. In particular look at goal assists, goals and score involvements. The coaching staff do.

But if you want to focus on the four he has played, he was OK last week, OK against the crowd (in conditions that didn't suit him), average game against gas and one of our best in our win against GC.

On what basis then would he be dropped?

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

Doesn't really matter as it seems hes Jack the untouchable.

Who is able to play the same role that he does, have the same impact with the football and on the scoreboard that is playing at Casey?

No one.

It is quite apparent you, and others, feel that he should spend time in Casey because he has been in our top 15 or so players or based around some percieved skill errors. Crossy continually turns the football over and looks slow, Angus Brayshaw made multiple disposal errors in the third quarter, Nathan Jones dropped a chest mark which resulted in a goal, Ben Newton dropped one coming back in which he only really put one arm out for it and many more. Based on your poor assessment of football they should all be dropped to Casey to find some form.

The other thing I think that is pivotal to why he is continually being picked is individual players have a set list of KPIs in which the club will assess for individual players, it is tailored to what is expected for each individual in the role that they are playing or what the coaching staff expect from a weekly basis. If the players do not reach required level in these stats, more so than "disposals" or "perceived toughness on the demonland forum", that is when they are likely to be considered for the drop.

Edited April 29, 2015 by Mad_Melbourne

[jackaub 1,402]

Nice to see a rational, considered response. I agree that four weeks is not long enough to be making judgements but some on here are ready to hang JW after that amount of time. I think we all need to take a deep breath and wait a while before we start calling for him to dropped. My point is simply that he is contributing more than some others at this point. Just because he is the subject of great expectations doesn't mean he should be singled out. Surely we have high expectations of every player in red and blue.

Rev The guy is playing his 100 th game surely we know all we need to know about JWs strengths and weaknesses.

Its really up to the coaches to determine every week his potential contribution to the game plan.

It is likely at some point that they will make the call that others are contributing more or less and they will act accordingly

This will happen whether he is a number 1 draft pick or not.

Me personally, I believe he may do better at another club. How we get value in a trade is another matter and is a conundrum to the Footy department as is hs current form

[Mad_Melbourne 877]

Goal Assist (averages) he ranks 3rd so far behind Michie (1 game only!!??) and JKH. Still a decent result.

This made me laugh, his average is skewed from one performance as he was able to contribute two goal assists compared to the per game figures of Watts and JKH

[The Reverend 1,736]

Rev The guy is playing his 100 th game surely we know all we need to know about JWs strengths and weaknesses.

Its really up to the coaches to determine every week his potential contribution to the game plan.

It is likely at some point that they will make the call that others are contributing more or less and they will act accordingly

This will happen whether he is a number 1 draft pick or not.

Me personally, I believe he may do better at another club. How we get value in a trade is another matter and is a conundrum to the Footy department as is hs current form

I don't want to see him do well at another club. I want him to be a productive contributor to the MFC. It may come to a point where he is dropped but that will be the decision of Roos and Co and I will support that. Until that time I'm happy to support the selection committee in their decision making. I'm just an ageing supporter hoping to see some improvement. I have faith in the direction we're heading under Roos and PJ. I certainly don't have the experience or expertise of our coaching panel or our selectors. As far as I'm concerned if he's getting a game it's because they think it's in the best interests of the club.

And that's all I've got to say about that!

[3Dee 1,153]

Still makes me laugh, people who can't see Jack's value to the team. You call yourselves supporters?

[dee-luded 2,959]

4 weeks reverend ?

Thought Jack had a few more than that under his belt.

We'll just wait another four...and maybd four fours for good measure.

Doesn't really matter as it seems hes Jack the untouchable.

All sarcasm aside its just as if not more dangerous to continually leave a player in, on the the reasoning of building confidence and establishing consistency as it is to give them a chance to do just that on an arena where they can.

What some here are suggesting is it might be better to allow Jack to refine his game, build standards and explore effective physicality in the game ( in the magoos)

Then bring it to the higher level.

Seems the club is reverting to animal farm rules.

Were not playing finals this year. We're still building this team. No room for favourites.

This notion that everyone is there purely on merit must be lining up to be questioned.

its like he has become that untouchable yappy 'pet pooch', from behind that fence. just don't call it names or growl at it, it may feel hurt & leave its home.

[PaulRB 6,363]

Might be good to list other high MFC draft picks who have done worse than Jack (I acknowledge the "worse than Jack" may be debateable).

Just for some perspective...

Luke Molan

Brock McClean

Col Sylvia

Cale Morton

Tom Scully

Jack Trengove

[rpfc 28,433]

Might be good to list other high MFC draft picks who have done worse than Jack (I acknowledge the "worse than Jack" may be debateable).

Just for some perspective...

Luke Molan

Brock McClean

Col Sylvia

Cale Morton

Tom Scully

Jack Trengove

Not sure this is helpful to any point, anyone is making, unless that point was to make Dees fans cry...

Edited April 30, 2015 by rpfc

[ManDee 7,148]

Your funny Reverend. Creating space and opportunities. Thanks I needed a laugh. That's very funny. Keep it coming.

You're funny Frosty.

[Ted Lasso 19,518]

Jack Watts statistically is almost identical to Justin Westoff, which is interesting because he is the closest thing to the type of player i think we're trying to turn jack into, from a statistics only viewpoint, Jack is very much playing his role, he's impacted the score board, keeping his opponent accountable, unfortunately he's made a couple of bad looking errors and those are the things that stick out in peoples minds.

[ManDee 7,148]

Hands up all those posters that know more about football than Paul Roos.

The rest of you should see who gets picked every week and who gets dropped. If Roos picks Watts then he is in the best 22.

All the speculation and comparisons in the world mean stuff all, if he is picked Roos rates him. Sure he could be better, so could the skipper, they could all be better.

Those with your hands up why do you think Roos plays Watts?

[dee-luded 2,959]

Jack Watts statistically is almost identical to Justin Westoff, which is interesting because he is the closest thing to the type of player i think we're trying to turn jack into, from a statistics only viewpoint, Jack is very much playing his role, he's impacted the score board, keeping his opponent accountable, unfortunately he's made a couple of bad looking errors and those are the things that stick out in peoples minds.

its these important things to our 'values' as footy supporters, as to just how WE want our club to go about footy into our future. as we rebuild now, the teram list skills & most Importantly, 'the culture'... this is why we need all who pull on the red&blue, to do all the things we really respect, & inspire US.

go in. tackle, hurt, bump, hit, fight, Win.

what watts is not doing so much, is what we have also complained about in others past our list. the mortons, the bennells, cooks, gysberts etc...

this isn't personal against Jack; it's about his footy, the bits he leaves out.

fire up son.

[ManDee 7,148]

Hard at it players, Viney, Trengove, (Mitch Clark) miss many games through injury. How useful are they injured? How many does Watts miss?

[beelzebub 23,376]

Hard at it players, Viney, Trengove, (Mitch Clark) miss many games through injury. How useful are they injured? How many does Watts miss?

sorry mate...easily 20 x that amount of players aren't injured for playing a harder game. That Ditch dude had a foot/head problem... Not a function of hardness at it. Ummm similarly Trenners is foot.....so predisposed to it.

No buying it as a relevant argument ManDee there's right and wrong ways of playing hard. If anything some of young Jacks lamentable efforts at tackling etc will cause him MORE harm than should he go full at it and stick them etc.

There are times for all elements of the game. I'm sure Jack feels he needs to step up his presence but currently that's at the expense of his normal highly prized skil sets. As though can't do both well at same time. It's for this reason I'd play him for a spell in the resides so he CAN hone and fuse these parts of the game, so they become more natural allies in his game.

I actually WANT him to succeed for a complete Watts certainly adds to the pie. He's just a bit all over the shop and seemingly down on field confidence. Acknowledging where he's at and a path back is apparently "unsupporting" and laying in to him.j

That's just nonsense.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Hard at it players, Viney, Trengove, (Mitch Clark) miss many games through injury. How useful are they injured? How many does Watts miss?

We really need to become softer as a club.

[Ted Lasso 19,518]

Hard at it players, Viney, Trengove, (Mitch Clark) miss many games through injury. How useful are they injured? How many does Watts miss?

are you freaking serious?

Nathan Jones must not be a hard at it player then, none of the above injuries have anything at all to do with being hard at it or not.

[jumbo returns 6,741]

Watts adds value to this team.

This ^^

[binman 42,972]

Hard at it players, Viney, Trengove, (Mitch Clark) miss many games through injury. How useful are they injured? How many does Watts miss?

As BB siays not really much of a pro Watts argument but what his resilience does show is that he is professional about his training, injury management and preparation.

For the last 2-3 years coaches, MFC players and DL training watchers alike have commented on how hard Watts works at training, which should, but won't for some, dispel the myth that he doesn't work hard to reach his potential.

Or perhaps i'm wrong and his capacity to reach 100 AFL games in a relatively short period is just another example of his luck not hard work. Perhaps all his coaches have just gifted him games because he went to Brighton Grammar and is a nice kid.

Edited April 30, 2015 by binman

[binman 42,972]

I actually WANT him to succeed for a complete Watts certainly adds to the pie. He's just a bit all over the shop and seemingly down on field confidence. Acknowledging where he's at and a path back is apparently "unsupporting" and laying in to him.j

That's just nonsense.

This is what is nonsense. By all means lets acknowledge where he's at: one of our most valuable players and one of the first handful picked each week, as demonstrated by the fat he keeps getting picked, he doesn't start as a sub and his statistical output. That is where he is at.

What is this nonsense about 'a path back". A path back from where?

By all means dees fans should highlight what Jack can improve (eg his competitiveness in the air) just as they would abut any player (eg "Tyson needs to improve his kicking and stop getting caught holding the ball') but peddling untruths hard"and myths (Watts is soft, doesn't work hard, is on thin ice in the side, would benefit from a spell in the seconds, adds nothing to the team blah, blah, blah) should be left to other other teams' supporters and fuckknuckle clueless football commentators.

Any way this is a futile effort so i better stop posting in this thread, after a final comment.

Watts is a valuable MFC player who has stuck fat when the easy thing to do would have been to swan of to another club and play regular finals (something a truly soft player would do). I'l be there on Sunday cheering him on (and no doubt wincing at the bone headed MFC supporters giving it to him when he makes an error)

[ManDee 7,148]

are you freaking serious?

Nathan Jones must not be a hard at it player then, none of the above injuries have anything at all to do with being hard at it or not.

SPR Reductio ad absurdum does not help your argument.

My uncle smoked until he was 90 and then tripped on a barbell and died from complications does not mean that exercise kills and smoking is healthy.

Because a player rarely misses a game (Stynes or N Jones) does not mean they must be soft, that argument is absurd.

My point is that there are a lot of players (most clubs) who lose many games to top players from impact injuries. Like (Ablett, Chapman, Lonergan, Harbrow Wallis) to name a few.

To say that the foot injuries to Clark were not from an awkward landing after crashing a pack is ignoring the facts. Viney's broken leg did not come from soft play.

To play well first you must play.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

Thread has got bizarre.