WATTS, SHORT CIRCUITING OR NOT?

[dee-luded 2,959]

We do not know what Roos has asked him to do.

He may have been asked to hit targets. Tick

He may have been asked to draw opposition players to him to free up team mates. Tick

He may have been asked to hit more targets per match than Vince and Viney. Tick

The point is we don't know. What we do know is that he is excellent with the ball. We have no better.

i think most everyone posting here is loud & clear about what they know. It seems to me that this style of play isn't wanted by the members/supporters in our culture going forward.

If you reap what you sow, then jack has to go. or we will reap more of the past. He's handbagging the team.

[serg27 14]

Been a fan of JW's skills since the day he got drafted, however a couple of things disturbed me about his performance on the weekend:

1. "chasing" out of our half forward line and Chris Dawes came from about 15 metres behind him to chase the GC player and put pressure on the kick. Chasing hard is a mindset not a skill.

2. going for marks on a number of occasions and not even putting his hands up in the air!

Thought round one he was our best player but left very disappointed in his efforts on the weekend.

If he keeps his spot, I hope to see an improved effort. Hopefully something was going on that we didn't know about - illness???

I think all we want to see from our players is "effort".

Terlich for example is obviously short on skills but at least he has a crack.

[dee-luded 2,959]

The premise here is that Watts is not meeting Roos' requirements. He may not be. But it may be an incorrect premise.

If Watts is expected to crash packs and slam tackle then clearly he is failing, drop him. I do not think we will ever get that out of him. But I do not think that is what is expected of him.

Think Robert Flower. If Watts was asked to be the next Robbie Flower would we be happy with that? Well would we?

you know you talk about premise & all sorts of words foreign to Footy.

Its such a simple game. When we don't have the ball, fight to win it, chase, tackle, bulldog the opposition, scrag, block; when we have the ball, teammates should cover the ball carrier, block, shepherd, run to receive, etc.

Its all about Effort & TEAM. self sacrifice for the team, go when its your area.

[ManDee 7,222]

i think most everyone posting here is loud & clear about what they know. It seems to me that this style of play isn't wanted by the members/supporters in our culture going forward.

If you reap what you sow, then jack has to go. or we will reap more of the past. He's handbagging the team.

So we drop Watts.

What about Viney, Grimes, Terlich - all no tackles. Vince, Dunn, Pederson, McDonald, Georgiou 1 tackle each. McKenzie, Evans M Jones, Tyson all less tackles than Watts

Watts was equal 4th for tackles.

You see what you want to see. So if you want to drop players for not tackling , 14 were worse than Watts.

I agree that at times he looks disinterested and lacks intensity. And it may be that it is time for him to go back to Casey. But don't pretend for a moment that we know what Roos has asked of him. As supporters we know what we want from players but Roos is the coach and if he picks and plays Watts that's good enough for me.

[Bossdog 2,002]

Fair dinkum......Another JW thread????

Just 2 weeks ago posters were lauding JW as a silky skilled player who was close to best on ground and had turned his game around

He plays one bad game and the vultures flock around his dead body and supporters demand that he be dropped delisted and taken out the back and shot......One poster even claimed that he was a mummy's boy and had to grow up.(how he knows what Jack is like bemuses me)

I promised myself that I would not come onto this thread because I knew that all the 100 to 200 games players would be spouting their vast experiences and telling Jack what was wrong with him. How about we leave these utterings to the footy dept....If he is dropped this week it wont surprise me to see posters gloating and saying I told you so>

He is a Melbourne Football Club player and as such deserves some support.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

Fair dinkum......Another JW thread????

Just 2 weeks ago posters were lauding JW as a silky skilled player who was close to best on ground and had turned his game around

He plays one bad game and the vultures flock around his dead body and supporters demand that he be dropped delisted and taken out the back and shot......One poster even claimed that he was a mummy's boy and had to grow up.(how he knows what Jack is like bemuses me)

I promised myself that I would not come onto this thread because I knew that all the 100 to 200 games players would be spouting their vast experiences and telling Jack what was wrong with him. How about we leave these utterings to the footy dept....If he is dropped this week it wont surprise me to see posters gloating and saying I told you so>

He is a Melbourne Football Club player and as such deserves some support.

I think most on here are prepared to do just that Boss. Most are not trying to assassinate him on here. Simply we are asking (hoping), that together with his undoubted talent, he can do the team things which are required of every player who aspire to being elite. Jack's obvious natural talent suggests he can be. We are simply hoping that after 5 years, he gets to the point of being a consistent team player and elite. If not for our collective sake, then his own.

Edited April 22, 2014 by iv'a worn smith

[ManDee 7,222]

you know you talk about premise & all sorts of words foreign to Footy.

Its such a simple game. When we don't have the ball, fight to win it, chase, tackle, bulldog the opposition, scrag, block; when we have the ball, teammates should cover the ball carrier, block, shepherd, run to receive, etc.

Its all about Effort & TEAM. self sacrifice for the team, go when its your area.

As we are communicating in English and premise is an English word, I thought that it best described my point.

Premise - a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion.

"if the premise is true, then the conclusion must be true"

I am somewhat unfamiliar (free kick to anyone that wants it) with the language you refer to "Footy", so I will put it simply. If Watts was told to do his job and he did it , good. If not drop him.

I am glad I didn't go for post hoc ergo propter hoc.

[jazza 1,323]

Fair dinkum......Another JW thread????

Just 2 weeks ago posters were lauding JW as a silky skilled player who was close to best on ground and had turned his game around

He plays one bad game and the vultures flock around his dead body and supporters demand that he be dropped delisted and taken out the back and shot......One poster even claimed that he was a mummy's boy and had to grow up.(how he knows what Jack is like bemuses me)

I promised myself that I would not come onto this thread because I knew that all the 100 to 200 games players would be spouting their vast experiences and telling Jack what was wrong with him. How about we leave these utterings to the footy dept....If he is dropped this week it wont surprise me to see posters gloating and saying I told you so>

He is a Melbourne Football Club player and as such deserves some support.

agree totally,another JW thread.

trouble is,all the posters who support him,say things like,

hes one of ours.

hes still learning.

we love him.

but were a chit team.

he hasnt been played on the wing yet.

so and so's statistics are worse.

he needs help.

stop picking on him

blah blah blah.

bottom line,hes an outside runner,who cant and doesnt consistently get over 15 possies per game for 18 games per year.

thats the discussion taking place.

Edited April 22, 2014 by jazza

[frankie_d 1,471]

As we are communicating in English and premise is an English word, I thought that it best described my point.

Premise - a previous statement or proposition from which another is inferred or follows as a conclusion.

"if the premise is true, then the conclusion must be true"

I am somewhat unfamiliar (free kick to anyone that wants it) with the language you refer to "Footy", so I will put it simply. If Watts was told to do his job and he did it , good. If not drop him.

I am glad I didn't go for post hoc ergo propter hoc.

he doesn't go when it's his turn

res ipse loquitur

if you want a Latin war...

[ManDee 7,222]

agree totally,another JW thread.

trouble is,all the posters who support him,say things like,

hes one of ours.

hes still learning.

we love him.

but were a chit team.

he hasnt been played on the wing yet.

so and so's statistics are worse.

he needs help.

stop picking on him

blah blah blah.

bottom line,hes an outside runner,who cant and doesnt consistently get over 15 possies per game for 18 games per year.

thats the discussion taking place.

Career average 15.4 per game.

[ManDee 7,222]

he doesn't go when it's his turn

res ipse loquitur

if you want a Latin war...

touche - Not latin, but you know that.

[jazza 1,323]

Career average 15.4 per game.

outside runner?

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,408]

I'm hearing you, but who have we got that can do it better than Watts.

Edit: Averaging 17.6 disposals at 71.4% efficiency 12.6 eff disposals

Bernie Vince 21.8 at 54.4%. 11.8

Jack Viney 19 at 62% 11.7

Cam Pederson 11.4 at 56.4 6.4

Michael Evans 8.3 at 39.3 3.2

Opposition sides cannot leave him alone or he will cut them up.

Dont forget a massive 8 tackles between those 5 players. Off topic just thought I would throw it in.

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

he doesn't go when it's his turn

res ipse loquitur

if you want a Latin war...

Perhaps Quid Pro Quo is more apt in this case

[ManDee 7,222]

outside runner?

Let's see what Roos does.

If he drops him, he is not doing as told. Or he is carrying an injury.

If he is in the side next week, he probably is doing as requested.

[ManDee 7,222]

Dont forget a massive 8 tackles between those 5 players. Off topic just thought I would throw it in.

And Watts had 3 of them.

[norwood_demon 196]

The premise here is that Watts is not meeting Roos' requirements. He may not be. But it may be an incorrect premise.

If Watts is expected to crash packs and slam tackle then clearly he is failing, drop him. I do not think we will ever get that out of him. But I do not think that is what is expected of him.

Think Robert Flower. If Watts was asked to be the next Robbie Flower would we be happy with that? Well would we?

Off topic but ManDee seems to be implying that Robbie was an outside player on the wing who shirked contests and flew for contested marks one-handed. Robbie Flower was one of the spindliest but nost courageous players of all time. Robbie played in a much tougher era of football & "went" when it was his turn. He was targetted by opposition thugs throughout his carrer. Thank God his evasive skills were sublime so the thugs seldom "caught" him. Two Hawthorn thugs did catch him in his last game. Robbie returned to the field with a fractured collarbone IIRC.

I would be ecstatic if Watts showed the courage of Robbie Flower & one-tenth of his football ability.

[jazza 1,323]

Off topic but ManDee seems to be implying that Robbie was an outside player on the wing who shirked contests and flew for contested marks one-handed. Robbie Flower was one of the spindliest but nost courageous players of all time. Robbie played in a much tougher era of football & "went" when it was his turn. He was targetted by opposition thugs throughout his carrer. Thank God his evasive skills were sublime so the thugs seldom "caught" him. Two Hawthorn thugs did catch him in his last game. Robbie returned to the field with a fractured collarbone IIRC.

I would be ecstatic if Watts showed the courage of Robbie Flower & one-tenth of his football ability.

great post.

watts is on track to show this kind of ability.one day

[ManDee 7,222]

Off topic but ManDee seems to be implying that Robbie was an outside player on the wing who shirked contests and flew for contested marks one-handed. Robbie Flower was one of the spindliest but nost courageous players of all time. Robbie played in a much tougher era of football & "went" when it was his turn. He was targetted by opposition thugs throughout his carrer. Thank God his evasive skills were sublime so the thugs seldom "caught" him. Two Hawthorn thugs did catch him in his last game. Robbie returned to the field with a fractured collarbone IIRC.

I would be ecstatic if Watts showed the courage of Robbie Flower & one-tenth of his football ability.

I made no such comment. What I said was we should compare Watts to players like Flower or Keith Greig. Players with light builds speed, skill and bravery. I would like to think that is the type of player that Watts can become. He will never be a Wayne Carey or Travis Cloke type.

You may notice that Robert Flower is listed as my favorite player. It is a dream of mine that Jack Watts could emulate such a champion. He is nowhere near that at the moment.

[Dr. Gonzo 24,311]

So we drop Watts.

What about Viney, Grimes, Terlich - all no tackles. Vince, Dunn, Pederson, McDonald, Georgiou 1 tackle each. McKenzie, Evans M Jones, Tyson all less tackles than Watts

Watts was equal 4th for tackles.

You see what you want to see. So if you want to drop players for not tackling , 14 were worse than Watts.

I agree that at times he looks disinterested and lacks intensity. And it may be that it is time for him to go back to Casey. But don't pretend for a moment that we know what Roos has asked of him. As supporters we know what we want from players but Roos is the coach and if he picks and plays Watts that's good enough for me.

1) It's not about tackles, it's about effort to win the contest

2) I assume Roos has the same standards for everyone, regardless of their role in the team or where they were drafted

I promised myself that I would not come onto this thread because I knew that all the 100 to 200 games players would be spouting their vast experiences and telling Jack what was wrong with him. How about we leave these utterings to the footy dept....If he is dropped this week it wont surprise me to see posters gloating and saying I told you so>

He is a Melbourne Football Club player and as such deserves some support.

Gee who would've thought that on a discussion forum devoted to the MFC we would be discussing the MFC and it's players! A pretty outlandish concept I know but analysis and opinions on the players and club makes for more interesting reading than "jolly good game" and everyone queuing up to pat each other on the back.

Let's see what Roos does.

If he drops him, he is not doing as told. Or he is carrying an injury.

If he is in the side next week, he probably is doing as requested.

Or he is being given another chance after being told what is expected of him.

To be honest I had no intention of debating Watts' game this much, watching the game I thought he was poor but overall I thought the team did OK and really we should've won the game. We dominated the second half but couldn't convert that into goals. Part of my thoughts on the game were that Watts was poor and that level of effort should not be tolerated and he should be made to work his way back through the two's. I am frankly amazed at the amount of people on here willing to make excuses and that have two sets of standards which for me is the only reason these threads exist.

This isn't about Watts-bashing, it's about being unwilling to accept those kinds of efforts regardless of who commits them. As Roos said last week or the week before, you can forgive skill errors, you can forgive if someone doesn't have all the talent in the world but you can't accept a lack of effort. That goes for every single player at the club, not just some. Otherwise our culture is worth less than nothing, we will continue playing bruise free footy and churning out guys like Travis Johnstone, Morton, Watts etc who will get by their whole careers on skill alone without being willing to put in the effort to make them and the club champions.

[dee-luded 2,959]

So we drop Watts.

What about Viney, Grimes, Terlich - all no tackles. Vince, Dunn, Pederson, McDonald, Georgiou 1 tackle each. McKenzie, Evans M Jones, Tyson all less tackles than Watts

Watts was equal 4th for tackles.

You see what you want to see. So if you want to drop players for not tackling , 14 were worse than Watts.

I agree that at times he looks disinterested and lacks intensity. And it may be that it is time for him to go back to Casey. But don't pretend for a moment that we know what Roos has asked of him. As supporters we know what we want from players but Roos is the coach and if he picks and plays Watts that's good enough for me.

do you think its about statistics... Nooo.

its about putting in !

"What about Viney, Grimes, Terlich - all no tackles. Vince, Dunn, Pederson, McDonald, Georgiou 1 tackle each. McKenzie, Evans M Jones, Tyson..."

# all of these players you've mentioned have put in big hearted efforts, in all games.

Tyson got subbed out this game for some reason.. maybe he was starting to catch the bug to? I don't know about Tyson being subbed out.

But this is All about 'competative efforts', Not just when watts has the ball. but even more-so when he doesn't have the ball ! This is watt this is all about, doing the dirty work, & often.

driving a powerful Team culture with no passengers. This is where we need to get to. We don't need 'brake-men' down in the Guards Van, to slow us down. We need Engines, & Drivers to push us forward.

Hard Yakka types.

Edited April 22, 2014 by dee-luded

[nutbean 8,838]

I do not think you are serious.

Collectively we would like to see him do more. It annoys people when we see someone with immense talent apparently wasting it through lack of effort.

We do not have any players on our list to replace Watts at the moment. If we do, drop Watts.

I am not for gifting a game to Dan Nicholson to teach a hypothetical lesson to Watts.

Edit: I think it was a bad game by Watts, possibly his worst.

I would only drop Watts for Salem.

I applaud Nicholson knowing that IMO he will never make it. Others may disagree but I think his disposal skill is ingrained and he simply butchers the ball often and I don't believe this will improve. Nicholson is more your outside football who doesn't have a lot of physicality about his football. But you can see he is busting his guts when he plays.

Effort comes in many shapes and forms - from constantly blocking or shepherding or being at the bottom of the pack - the physical efforts - or constantly presenting and leading hard and often, working tirelessly to make space and give an option - the non physical.

I don't care how exquisite Watts' disposal skills are ( which they are) - watching him on Sunday and his lack of effort made me groan - I prefer Nicholson and I never thought I would say that. ( actually my preferred option is for Watts to give effort)

[daisycutter 29,743]

..................

If he is in the side next week, he probably is doing as requested.

your logic is quite suspect here, but believe what you want

[nutbean 8,838]

Fair dinkum......Another JW thread????

Just 2 weeks ago posters were lauding JW as a silky skilled player who was close to best on ground and had turned his game around

He plays one bad game and the vultures flock around his dead body and supporters demand that he be dropped delisted and taken out the back and shot......One poster even claimed that he was a mummy's boy and had to grow up.(how he knows what Jack is like bemuses me)

He is a Melbourne Football Club player and as such deserves some support.

Tom McDonald played a bad game on Sunday. He was beaten comprehensively on Sunday.

I ask why JW cops such criticism but TM doesn't.

I have not been a vocal critic of JW but I am now. It is not that he played badly - he is copping well deserved crticism for the manner that he plays badly.

I think supporters can half stomach a player getting beaten by a better player on the day as long as the effort was there ( TM being a prime example). It is the lack of apparent effort that I can't stomach.

Edited April 22, 2014 by nutbean

[Deestroy All 14,266]

How many years and how many threads til this bloke goes elsewhere to chase a bit of success, then when he gets there he and they realise the standards of true success at AFL level are beyond him?

Hopefully it's sooner rather than later. I'm sick of him being our problem. Sick of reading about him and most definitely sick of talking about him.

Not up to it.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Deestroy All