Jack Trengove out for year with navicular fracture

[Webber 10,465]

Webber, with the injury he has I assume he would be able to do almost everything except run: weights (maybe modifications for lower body exercises), bike (again maybe modified), swim, pilates/core etc.

Is this correct? I feel like in some ways this isa reasonably manageable condition that will allow him to maintain strength and fitness and even improve some of those areas, but lose running conditioning.

It would be fantastic to see him come out explosively at the start of next year.

Absolutely deanox. Lots he can work on. Unfortunately running is the core of footy, and that's a slow road back.

[Machsy 2,858]

Egan is the only player I can remember not to come back from this injury.

Garland and Grimes are prime examples of players who can come back, lost no speed and actually got better (especially Garland!).

Doesn't mean he won't always have issues, but this is far from the end of his career. He's very young and has plenty left in him.

Croad also retired after it, but he was pretty much at retirement age, and continued to play on with the injury for the 2008 grand final, presumably causing untold damage to his "busted wheel."

[TGR 1,367]

TGR, what exactly is your knowledge of physiotherapy, be it undergraduate, and postgraduate study and treatment of foot pathologies? What are you imagining when you say we think we can apply 'pure Physio principles' to the foot? Your statements are vague and clearly uninformed. And don't reply with anecdotal, singular first hand experience or second hand waffle. Give me some reason to think you're not just spinning nonsense.

I am both a Physiotherapist and a Podiatrist with post-grad in the former.

[Slartibartfast 17,257]

Great to hear that he sees it the same way as many of us have, a sense of "thank god, an answer". If we thought we were frustrated with how he moved, it wouldn't hold a candle to how frustrated Jack must be.

Now that the dust has settled, I'm excited at the thought of seeing a reinvigorated Trengove in 2015.

TBH I don't get it.

Has his foot been an issue since 2012? Has it stopped him pushing off (acceleration) and his pace (speed) the whole time?

If it has then the mind boggles as to why he was played and if it hasn't then he's just slow. I really hope I'm wrong but I can't see how this changes much in terms of his physical abilities.

[daisycutter 29,612]

Misson = not a doctor

Misson = not the person who medically clears a player as fit to play

Misson = someone who relies on medical specialists to give him correct advice

Shall I go on..?

not disagreeing with you machsy.....but why did 2 long-term mfc doctors resign when misson started

there were statements around that they were dissatisfied about their authority vis-a-vis the conditioning staff

[Machsy 2,858]

I don't know, and until we have definitive answers to your question, I don't think it's relevant.

[DEE fence 5,007]

I am both a Physiotherapist and a Podiatrist with post-grad in the former.

will you be my friend..., but seriously I fully agree with your comment about surgeons (and the other bits too).

[daisycutter 29,612]

I don't know, and until we have definitive answers to your question, I don't think it's relevant.

hmmmm........seems like 2 doctors disagreed with your comments about how medical advice is acted on

however, that was 2 years ago at neeld's start of coaching and things could certainly be different now

i'm not trying to blame misson (for anything), but neither am i trying to defend him as you did

where the line is drawn between medicos and fitness staff is not a straight forward issue (except in obvious situations)

[H_T 3,043]

Bloody ripping kid and I think this will, in years to come, be looked at as a blessing in disguise.

I hope so. It's about time both he and club got their dose of good luck. As some say the harder you work, the luckier you get.

[jnrmac 20,058]

Misson just admitted its related to his 2012 foot injury

Christ this cub is a joke at identifying and managing injuries

Misson must be sacked

I that is right (where did you hear it BTW?) that is a far king disgrace.

[Whispering_Jack 29,969]

TBH I don't get it.

Has his foot been an issue since 2012? Has it stopped him pushing off (acceleration) and his pace (speed) the whole time?

If it has then the mind boggles as to why he was played and if it hasn't then he's just slow. I really hope I'm wrong but I can't see how this changes much in terms of his physical abilities.

The Trengoves are runners. Jack's sister is a marathoner so I'm sure that running has been part of their daily regimen for years. I wonder if one of the physios/doctors out there could confirm my theory that the injury is one of those that might have initially happened some years ago and slowly took time to manifest itself. In Jack's case, I first noticed he was having problems not only with his running but also the depth of his kicking when he came back from the Dangerfield suspension in early 2011. This might explain difficulties that later became evident and were not properly diagnosed or treated at the time.

I ask because that was my experience with problems I had with my foot that surfaced in the early 90s after 15 years of jogging/running but didn't come to a head for another 3 to 4 years.

[nutbean 8,838]

no larger than your assumption that they were.

So what you are saying is that we draft a player who has reasonable foot speed for his first two seasons - for the next two seasons he can hardly raise a gallop and the medical staff either didn't notice or chose to ignore. If this is the case I am with you - sack the lot of them - fancy trained medical professionals knowing less than us on Demonland.

I am suggesting that absolutely it would have been topic of discussion and some form of ongoing investigation/monitoring was happening. The same as they would do with Dawes knee.

Since neither of us know we'll just have to both live with our opinions.

(as an aside - look at every club and the operations players go through in the off season to repair problems that we the supporters had no idea about. Players continually play carrying all sorts of ailments that only come to light in the off season when they go under the knife)

[Slartibartfast 17,257]

The Trengoves are runners. Jack's sister is a marathoner so I'm sure that running has been part of their daily regimen for years. I wonder if one of the physios/doctors out there could confirm my theory that the injury is one of those that might have initially happened some years ago and slowly took time to manifest itself. In Jack's case, I first noticed he was having problems not only with his running but also the depth of his kicking when he came back from the Dangerfield suspension in early 2011. This might explain difficulties that later became evident and were not properly diagnosed or treated at the time.

I ask because that was my experience with problems I had with my foot that surfaced in the early 90s after 15 years of jogging/running but didn't come to a head for another 3 to 4 years.

Let me try and put my question more simply.

If it wasn't hurting why would it effect his kicking and pace. If it was hurting why was he playing?

[Webber 10,465]

I am both a Physiotherapist and a Podiatrist with post-grad in the former.

Then you can explain firstly what you mean by 'pure Physio principles', as I've not heard of them, and why you imagine the physios at MFC don't have advanced post grad knowledge of and experience with the sporting foot? Your comments imply that there is an essential absence of understanding of foot pathology, diagnosis and management at the MFC. Or maybe you're suggesting that orthopaedics is an imperfect science.

[Whispering_Jack 29,969]

Let me try and put my question more simply.

If it wasn't hurting why would it effect his kicking and pace. If it was hurting why was he playing?

Understand your question but in my case, it was an injury that didn't hurt to start off with. I got it initially running down Flinders Peak and slightly jarred the ankle. It took a long time before there was pain and even then I shrugged it off. I can't speak for JT and he's a professional athlete and not an amateur part time runner but there was a time when footballers were all urged to play beyond the pain barrier.

We know now that that's foolish.

[DeeSpencer 25,663]

The Trengoves are runners. Jack's sister is a marathoner so I'm sure that running has been part of their daily regimen for years. I wonder if one of the physios/doctors out there could confirm my theory that the injury is one of those that might have initially happened some years ago and slowly took time to manifest itself. In Jack's case, I first noticed he was having problems not only with his running but also the depth of his kicking when he came back from the Dangerfield suspension in early 2011. This might explain difficulties that later became evident and were not properly diagnosed or treated at the time.

I ask because that was my experience with problems I had with my foot that surfaced in the early 90s after 15 years of jogging/running but didn't come to a head for another 3 to 4 years.

Jess is also a physio. I tell you what I'd give a penny for her thoughts on what's happened to Jack.

Jack's attitude in the press conference was fanstatic. And far better than the attitude I would've had if I just found out I'd been nursing a sore spot in my foot for months and now it's cracked.

One thing this has shown is as the physios will all admit we know so little about the feet and managing the huge loads that go through them.

My problem is not that foot diagnosis and management is an inexact science, the bickering in this thread is testament to that. My problem is that I think they missed an opportunity by not stepping back and looking at the overall picture.

I also think that Melbourne should take note of the way Geelong have led the league in seeking overseas answers to their complex problems.

[Yossarian 1,820]

What I've learned from having sesamoiditis the last few years is that there's some things that don't just heal, even when you're still young and otherwise fit. Some types of pain you just have to learn to live with.

[Webber 10,465]

Let me try and put my question more simply.

If it wasn't hurting why would it effect his kicking and pace. If it was hurting why was he playing?

At the elite level particularly, pain is not always the presenting symptom when things aren't what they were (speed, kicking distance). There are biomechanical factors which, when in dysfunction, will cause diminished function, but not pain.

[DeeSpencer 25,663]

Then you can explain firstly what you mean by 'pure Physio principles', as I've not heard of them, and why you imagine the physios at MFC don't have advanced post grad knowledge of and experience with the sporting foot? Your comments imply that there is an essential absence of understanding of foot pathology, diagnosis and management at the MFC. Or maybe you're suggesting that orthopaedics is an imperfect science.

I'm pretty sure all medicine is an imperfect science.

Take Mitch Clark for example. Has his foot repaired with a screw and then that screw causes pain and inflammation and has to be removed. Isn't that the definition of imperfect science? Same with Blease and his leg etc.

Judging by the doctors, physios and surgeons that we use I do believe our foot team are probably as good as any in the AFL and high quality. That doesn't mean they have missed an opportunity here.

[Lucifers Hero 39,730]

Let me try and put my question more simply.

If it wasn't hurting why would it effect his kicking and pace. If it was hurting why was he playing?

Maybe Jack was so keen to play and after being dropped to get back to seniors, that he didn't 'report' it until it became unbearable. Who knows maybe he thought he could play through it. Sadly, that wasn't the case.

Point is we have no way of knowing if it was medical staff or Jack himself that decided he should play.

[nutbean 8,838]

If it was hurting why was he playing?

Because that's what 50% of footballers do. That fine line of playing with acceptable level of discomfort against playing when there is an injury that can result in further damage.

(note - before i get jumped on - the percentage is MUCTITDF ( made up crap to impress the Demonland faithful)

[DeeSpencer 25,663]

Because that's what 50% of footballers do. That fine line of playing with acceptable level of discomfort against playing when there is an injury that can result in further damage.

(note - before i get jumped on - the percentage is MUCTITDF ( made up crap to impress the Demonland faithful)

I'd say more than 50 especially the longer the season goes.

It's the medical staffs job to work out what pain is dangerous and what isn't. Unfortunately they got so close to nailing this one - they had repeat scans etc but couldn't quite get there. That's what's led to my frustration. Although I bet our medical/fitness staff are just as frustrated, or I hope they are.

[Webber 10,465]

Jess is also a physio. I tell you what I'd give a penny for her thoughts on what's happened to Jack.

Jack's attitude in the press conference was fanstatic. And far better than the attitude I would've had if I just found out I'd been nursing a sore spot in my foot for months and now it's cracked.

One thing this has shown is as the physios will all admit we know so little about the feet and managing the huge loads that go through them.

My problem is not that foot diagnosis and management is an inexact science, the bickering in this thread is testament to that. My problem is that I think they missed an opportunity by not stepping back and looking at the overall picture.

I also think that Melbourne should take note of the way Geelong have led the league in seeking overseas answers to their complex problems.

Again Master, what makes you think they weren't looking at the 'overall picture'?!! Sometimes, the answers and reasons elude EVERYBODY, because of the limitations of science, which you rightly acknowledge. The alternative management is that JT presents with 'niggling discomfort' (a constant for AFL footballers), and some drop in physical performance, which the Med staff ( all of them, in consultation with each other) can't find an answer for (because the answers aren't always there), so decide just to rest him completely from football. Would you be happy with that? Or might you be complaining that JT isn't playing, but nobody knows what's wrong with him?

[Webber 10,465]

I'm pretty sure all medicine is an imperfect science.

Take Mitch Clark for example. Has his foot repaired with a screw and then that screw causes pain and inflammation and has to be removed. Isn't that the definition of imperfect science? Same with Blease and his leg etc.

Judging by the doctors, physios and surgeons that we use I do believe our foot team are probably as good as any in the AFL and high quality. That doesn't mean they have missed an opportunity here.

Given that missed opportunities are always possible in our business, why fuel the fire that in this situation it may be the case, based on no knowledge of JT's management?

[Webber 10,465]

Because that's what 50% of footballers do. That fine line of playing with acceptable level of discomfort against playing when there is an injury that can result in further damage.

(note - before i get jumped on - the percentage is MUCTITDF ( made up crap to impress the Demonland faithful)

50% is way underestimated Nutbean.

As an example of player complicity in the process, when HFC's Andy Collins was at his and the club's 90's glory years, I had seen him on a Thursday with follow up on some injury I don't remember. He mentioned in passing that he'd got a knock to his chest in his last game, but by the time I saw him, soreness had gone. So, move on, no issue, doesn't need treatment. AC was notoriously a hardnut. I bullied him into getting an X-ray. The results hadn't arrived by selection time. I checked with Andy, he said he had the X-ray, and the radiologist said no probs, but didn't know what had happened to the report. Anyway, no symptoms (according to Andy). He played, came back next week with more soreness, another X-ray, showed a rib crack. He never had the X-ray, as was desperate to play that week particularly. I