I disagree with Clark in the ruck.. I think some have forgotten just how good he is at FF - before getting injured he had the 7th best goal per game average in the comp, and that's in an awful side with low quality and quantity of inside 50s. A full season at FF with some better midfield performances he could well give the coleman a shake

Clark to become 2nd ruck? Are there any other teams whose 2nd ruck is better than their 1st ruck?

I disagree with Clark in the ruck.. I think some have forgotten just how good he is at FF - before getting injured he had the 7th best goal per game average in the comp, and that's in an awful side with low quality and quantity of inside 50s. A full season at FF with some better midfield performances he could well give the coleman a shake

He was looking very good in 2012 but he also was a one dimensional target. At any stage we got the ball forward of centre we looked for Clark. He battled manfully but it didn't help the team too often. He got some goals in games where the opposition had let their guard down and was torching GWS.

In Roos' game plan I can't see traditional forwards kicking bags of goals. It wont be set up for fast flowing football. It will be a lot of defensive and grunt work stuff that requires 2 good rucks and multiple options forward. Hawthorn with Roughy doing time in the middle and Franklin up the ground and down on goals has shown to me that you use your best players in roles that will serve the team not necessarily for kicking bags of goals.

Clark to become 2nd ruck? Are there any other teams whose 2nd ruck is better than their 1st ruck?

Hawthorn last year with Hale and Bailey. Maybe even this year with Hale and McEvoy.

I quite like the idea of using a big body (Jamar/Spencer/Gawn) to battle the best opposition ruck and then letting one of our best players get around the play more.

I couldn't imagine more than one getting a game if we have, say, Gawn rucking, Clark playing fwd/ruck, Dawes and Hogan playing forward.

Just too top-heavy.

Lucky then that we let Lucas Cook go last year.

I pretty much like everything Roos has said and done since he's arrived.

That is an insult to Gawn.

FCS, Jamar's output has been VFL standard at best. Roosy for god-sake, don't worry about game plans with Jamar; I just want him to tap the ball and not end up lying on the ground leaving us with a 3 on 4.

Our rucks will sneak forward more under Roos. If Jamar is our no.1 ruck come mid-winter, I'd be very surprised.

Laud the young, lambast the old.This is such an easy argument on here.

Lets have a look at the stats shall we?

Disposals per game Avg (2013): Gawn 8.9. Jamar 8.1

Marks: Gawn 2.9 Jamar 2.3

Tackles: Gawn 2.5 Jamar 3.1

Hitouts: Gawn 18.6 Jamar 33.1

(Spencers were 10.0, 3.1, 2.4 and 26.6)

Neither of these two are setting the world on fire now, are they? There's a negligible difference between both of them, other than the chief responsibility of the ruckman, to win hitouts, where Jamar is way ahead. I cant find hitouts to advantage figures anywhere but I'd hasten to suggest both's are pretty low by league standards.

Gawn may be a character off the field, but showed fairly stilted development this year. Spencer shows desperation and enthusiasm, but still doesnt look a natural. Jamar is ageing and slowing, but for Round 1 still our best bet.

I've had that niggling feeling for most of the year that Clark will never play again, so haven't given his best position much thought.

Now it's looking more likely he will make a comeback - I'd suggest 2nd ruck is perfect - maybe even 1st ruck if Jamar spuds it up again. Hogan will own the F50 while Dawes will push up the ground and Clark to roam around everywhere. Too early to be talking premierships?

I've had that niggling feeling for most of the year that Clark will never play again, so haven't given his best position much thought.

You weren't the only one, frankly it was depressing hearing people say he wouldn't play again. Credit to the medical staff, coming back from this is an achievement on its own.

In terms of position, I remember a few times he played ruck and suddenly we started winning some centre clearances! So quite happy to hear this plan. I just want to see him back on the park, the boys walk taller with him out there. Watch him look out for his you protege Hulk Hogan!

He was looking very good in 2012 but he also was a one dimensional target. At any stage we got the ball forward of centre we looked for Clark. He battled manfully but it didn't help the team too often. He got some goals in games where the opposition had let their guard down and was torching GWS.

In Roos' game plan I can't see traditional forwards kicking bags of goals. It wont be set up for fast flowing football. It will be a lot of defensive and grunt work stuff that requires 2 good rucks and multiple options forward. Hawthorn with Roughy doing time in the middle and Franklin up the ground and down on goals has shown to me that you use your best players in roles that will serve the team not necessarily for kicking bags of goals.

Hawthorn last year with Hale and Bailey. Maybe even this year with Hale and McEvoy.

I quite like the idea of using a big body (Jamar/Spencer/Gawn) to battle the best opposition ruck and then letting one of our best players get around the play more.

I think we are now in a very different situation. If we get the ball forward of the centre we now have three, possibly four targets (Clark, Hogan, Dawes, Howe) at which to aim. An opposition's nightmare I would have thought. Also though illustrates our urgent need for a quality small forward. In the short term Bynes maybe, turn Bleese into a quick crumber (although I suspect he will be more effective as a running attacking half back - if he can get his defensive game in order), or even better pick Garlett up in the draft.

Whichever way we go it will be like the days we had Neitz, Schwarter, and Gary Lyon up forward when we often played in finals. Exciting times.

Laud the young, lambast the old.This is such an easy argument on here.

Lets have a look at the stats shall we?

Disposals per game Avg (2013): Gawn 8.9. Jamar 8.1

Marks: Gawn 2.9 Jamar 2.3

Tackles: Gawn 2.5 Jamar 3.1

Hitouts: Gawn 18.6 Jamar 33.1

(Spencers were 10.0, 3.1, 2.4 and 26.6)

Neither of these two are setting the world on fire now, are they? There's a negligible difference between both of them,

other than the chief responsibility of the ruckman, to win hitouts, where Jamar is way ahead. I cant find hitouts to advantage figures

anywhere but I'd hasten to suggest both's are pretty low by league standards.

Gawn may be a character off the field, but showed fairly stilted development this year. Spencer shows desperation and enthusiasm, but

still doesnt look a natural. Jamar is ageing and slowing, but for Round 1 still our best bet.

Those stats are heavily unbalanced though by the number of times Gawn played as the secondary ruck of the combination behind Jamar or Spencer.

Consider this 5 week stretch which is the only 5 weeks last year Gawn played as the primary ruck:

Round 14 v Bulldogs (Minson) - 33 hitouts

Round 15 v Sydney (Mumford and Pyke) - 25

Round 16 v Geelong (D. Simpson) - 48

Round 17 v Brisbane (Leueny) - 34

Round 18 v North (Goldstein) - 20

Average of 32. So 1 hit out less than Jamar!

If Gawn develops a fitness base (remember he's yet to complete anywhere near a full preseason) and Mitch Clark can back him up strongly then he's the man for sure. If Gawn isn't fit enough and Fitzpatrick or an underdone Clark are the back ups then we will need to consider Jamar or Spencer. The only proviso being Jamar doesn't produce a throw back to 2010 stunning form turn around.

Also in the 5 games as first ruck Gawn took 6, 8, 0 (wet Geelong), 0 (darwin), and 5 marks at an average of 3.8 which could be much higher in more dry games and laid 21 tackles at 4.2.

Marks and tackles are just as vital as hit outs to rucks. Hawthorn have recruited McEvoy knowing full well he's undersized and unlikely to beat Sandilands at hit outs but will mark the ball around the ground and follow up the play.

Since about 2008 I've been a fan of Mark Jamar and he peaked well under Bailey but the reality is his year last year was awful. I didn't see it so much at first in such a bad side and I agreed full well with any policy that didn't play Spencer and protected Gawn from excessive work load but Jamar stank.

Laud the young, lambast the old.This is such an easy argument on here.

Lets have a look at the stats shall we?

Disposals per game Avg (2013): Gawn 8.9. Jamar 8.1

Marks: Gawn 2.9 Jamar 2.3

Tackles: Gawn 2.5 Jamar 3.1

Hitouts: Gawn 18.6 Jamar 33.1

(Spencers were 10.0, 3.1, 2.4 and 26.6)

Neither of these two are setting the world on fire now, are they? There's a negligible difference between both of them,

other than the chief responsibility of the ruckman, to win hitouts, where Jamar is way ahead. I cant find hitouts to advantage figures

anywhere but I'd hasten to suggest both's are pretty low by league standards.

Gawn may be a character off the field, but showed fairly stilted development this year. Spencer shows desperation and enthusiasm, but

still doesnt look a natural. Jamar is ageing and slowing, but for Round 1 still our best bet.

Interesting stats DD. Are they for all time or just last season? Ifthey were all time I would very much suspect Jamar got nothing like those numbers in the last couple of years. Also, Gawn is maturing, and has been injured too often for comfort (a bit like Sandilands - I think it might go with the territory for the really tall). He will really have to improve this year if he stays injury free, to be fair he had a couple of good games last season and was absolutely dominant in several games at Casey as well. The Master's subsequent entry about the five week stretch between rounds 14 & 18 last year would tend to suggest Max is just about there already, particular considering he is yet to complete a full pre-season, and what I saw today is that he is up for it, with Roos setting up a very healthy rivalry between Max, Spencer and Fitz. Maxy is a monster, and a fully fit and firing Maxy Gawn would be a huge plus for us this year.

I must say though I think for the future Gawn has more potential than any of them. I guess it will come down to whether Roos sees the best way to get Maxy up to his potential is to have him dominate at Casey every week or give him game time in the MFC. Up to Max I suspect in as much as how fast is he prepared to improve, and how quickly will he become fully fit. Clearly we need to be competitive every week, and that at least may mean we play Jamar in the short term.

For anyone who didn't hear the interview:

https://soundcloud.com/sen1116/paul-roos-on-the-run-home

I should know this, but, when fit, what's Clark's engine like?

I assume it's good enough for him to go with the likes of Bellchambers around the ground.

Don't be fooled by Jamars Stats.

If he had hit outs to advantage then it would have shown up in the centre clearances and stoppages.

gawn > jamar

simply because gawn looks like he can actually kick the ball.

Hopefully sooner than later Gawn or Spencer replaces Jamar for good but it hasn't happened yet. Clark needs to play 2nd ruck otherwise we're top heavy forward if all of Clark, Dawes, Hogan and a 2nd ruckman play - even though that's the R1 team I selected in that thread I'm not happy with it - I'm not sure Clark is ready to ruck R1 but let's hope he is.

Don't be fooled by Jamars Stats.

If he had hit outs to advantage then it would have shown up in the centre clearances and stoppages.

If you don't have a midfield, can you have 'hit outs to advantage'?

Hopefully sooner than later Gawn or Spencer replaces Jamar for good but it hasn't happened yet. Clark needs to play 2nd ruck otherwise we're top heavy forward if all of Clark, Dawes, Hogan and a 2nd ruckman play - even though that's the R1 team I selected in that thread I'm not happy with it - I'm not sure Clark is ready to ruck R1 but let's hope he is.

Completely agree.

Frankly, our first ruck stocks are not in great shape.

But Jamar is still ahead of Gawn and Spencer.

And Clark being 2nd ruck seems a fait accompli; Roos has flagged it and Clark is more than capable of it, so it is going to happen.

That leaves it as a three horse race for 1st Ruck and with Clark as 2nd ruck there is less pressure on the first ruck to get touches around the ground or kick goals up forward - the focus will be on the centre square.

With that in mind, Jamar is a better tap ruckman than both of the others.

It's almost immaterial that Jamar only gets a few kicks a game - he is a ruckman. He can have a near BOG game with 35 HO, 4 kicks, 8 handballs, 3 marks, and 2 goals if the midfield is getting first use out of the middle and around the ground.

Completely agree.

Frankly, our first ruck stocks are not in great shape.

But Jamar is still ahead of Gawn and Spencer.

And Clark being 2nd ruck seems a fait accompli; Roos has flagged it and Clark is more than capable of it, so it is going to happen.

That leaves it as a three horse race for 1st Ruck and with Clark as 2nd ruck there is less pressure on the first ruck to get touches around the ground or kick goals up forward - the focus will be on the centre square.

With that in mind, Jamar is a better tap ruckman than both of the others.

It's almost immaterial that Jamar only gets a few kicks a game - he is a ruckman. He can have a near BOG game with 35 HO, 4 kicks, 8 handballs, 3 marks, and 2 goals if the midfield is getting first use out of the middle and around the ground.

Don't agree here, with less rotations it is more important than ever that the ruck man carry his weight around the ground. A well rounded ruck gets kicks and takes marks otherwise we are one mid down.

That is an insult to Gawn.

FCS, Jamar's output has been VFL standard at best. Roosy for god-sake, don't worry about game plans with Jamar; I just want him to tap the ball and not end up lying on the ground leaving us with a 3 on 4.

Our rucks will sneak forward more under Roos. If Jamar is our no.1 ruck come mid-winter, I'd be very surprised.

As for Clark, over the past 2 years, per game played, he has been the best forward in the comp in relation to quality of delivery. But, I have felt that we were at our best when he pinch-hit in the ruck. He has a presence that Jamar does not have. He gives us a 4 on 4 after the tap.

The other thing Roos will be dead against is "bomb entries" forward; and instead honour the hit-up. Clark isn't that much of a hit-up, if you get my drift.

Ron, I'm not going to get too hung up on who plays first ruck. I think we've got three flawed options in Jamar, Spencer and Gawn. My point was more about how the our ruck options are grouped and how they're competing for position. Jamar, Gawn and Spencer are all competing for the same spot. One of those three will play. Fitzpatrick and Clark are playing for the forward/second ruck position (i.e. 80% forward, 20% ruck or something like that). One of those two will play.

Who you think is best out of Jamar, Spencer or Gawn is neither here nor there to my point. I've seen a number of arguments in favour of each and at this point, I think they all have merit. It's plainly obvious that Gawn ought to be the best of the three on the long term, but I think he's third in the queue at the moment due to his inability to run out games. We'll see whether that's still the case post pre-season, but I think he's coming from a long way back in that regard and I think it'll take quite some time to get there.

I also wouldn't be surprised if we took a ruckman in the rookie draft this year.

Don't agree here, with less rotations it is more important than ever that the ruck man carry his weight around the ground. A well rounded ruck gets kicks and takes marks otherwise we are one mid down.

Where is our 'well-rounded ruck'?

lol

The immateriality of it is that Jamar is not so ineffectual around the ground that he will be beaten out by Gawn or Spencer.

And Clark as 2nd ruck does take pressure off Jamar to get involved than if Gawn was second ruck.

Jamar/Clark tandem gets: 50 HO, 15 kicks, 12 marks, 15 HBs, 4 goals.

Jamar/Gawn tandem gets: 50 HO, 7 kicks, 7 marks, 12 HBs, 2 goals.

Those numbers are my prognostications. I note the hazard of predicting things like this, I am just using it as an example that if a second ruck is able to contribute around the ground, it lessens the pressure on the first ruck to do so.

If you don't have a midfield, can you have 'hit outs to advantage'?

Pretty much impossible.

That's what I find so frustrating about our midfield. Jamar can win almost every tap in the middle, yet the oppositions mids read it like a book and off they go with the clearance once again.

I think Gawn could develop into a really good ruckman with an injury-free preseason or two, so long as he can put on size and build a bigger tank. Still, I am not sure he will be in our best side next year.

I think Jamar is past his best and his lack of mobility leaves us short in the clearances after the ruck contest. He will only deserve a spot in the best 22 if he can dominate the ruck contests again.

Spencer needs to get stronger to dominate the hit outs to make it to AFL standard. He is behind Gawn and probably Jamar IMO.

I would go for Clark as the first ruck with Fitzpatrick as his back up. I don’t rate Fitzpatrick as a centre square ruckman, but I think he could be very effective around the ground. So I would have Clark do all the centre bounces when he is on field and then push forward soon after. This plan obviously assumes Clark is fit to ruck. This plan is also the only viable plan where Fitzpatrick makes the 22, which I think he deserves.

I don't want to rob our forward line of Clark.

Maybe it is best that Jamar is there to give cover to two promising but nowhere near ready ruckmen over the next couple of years.

I am really interested to see what Jamar's effectiveness is like in the middle with players to tap to and, importantly, offensive minded players.

Trengove, Tyson, Vince, and Cross actually trying to help Jones win the football.

That helps Jamar.