Name the top 8 players for us to make the finals

[Dees2014 2,377]

If we were to make the finals next year who would be our most crucial eight players.This means of course who are going to step up into the elite, and where are we going to get the biggest improvement from. I'll start in no particular order but with primary positions.

Frawley - attacking CHF

Tyson - midfield on the ball

Gawn - first ruck

Clark - full forward

Hogan - CHF

Jones - Centre

Watts - Wing

Viney - Rover

It is hard when you do it this way, but it does focus the mind as to who is critical and where our biggest upside is.

The 9th man? Paul Roos, which is where our biggest upside of all will be.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Dees2014

[CatFishPig 462]

Wrong approach.. You should be looking at our bottom tier best 22 players stepping it up.. It's these players that are going to bring us into top 8 contention..

Eg..

Evans - Avg 20 Disposals and 1 goal a game.

Tapscott - Shuts down opposition forward each week.

Kent - Kicks 35 goals as forward pocket..

Michie - Avg 28 Disposals and 1 goal a game

Jamar - back to AA form

Howe - 40-50 goals

McDonald - AA CHB

Trengove - Avg 30 disposals

If things like the above happen, the 8 players you mentioned should lift their game regardless..

You're only as good as your bottom players.. need the whole team to step up..

[titan_uranus 25,043]

Wrong approach.. You should be looking at our bottom tier best 22 players stepping it up.. It's these players that are going to bring us into top 8 contention..

Eg..

Evans - Avg 20 Disposals and 1 goal a game.

Tapscott - Shuts down opposition forward each week.

Kent - Kicks 35 goals as forward pocket..

Michie - Avg 28 Disposals and 1 goal a game

Jamar - back to AA form

Howe - 40-50 goals

McDonald - AA CHB

Trengove - Avg 30 disposals

If things like the above happen, the 8 players you mentioned should lift their game regardless..

You're only as good as your bottom players.. need the whole team to step up..

Bottom six v top six, another of Demonland's 'great' debates.

FWIW, given how insipid our leadership and 'star' qualities have been the last decade, I'd put my eggs in the top six basket. We won't go anywhere until we get more from our top players, meaning Trengove, Grimes, Watts, Howe, Frawley all need to lift on their 2013 output.

[Dees2014 2,377]

Wrong approach.. You should be looking at our bottom tier best 22 players stepping it up.. It's these players that are going to bring us into top 8 contention..

Eg..

Evans - Avg 20 Disposals and 1 goal a game.

Tapscott - Shuts down opposition forward each week.

Kent - Kicks 35 goals as forward pocket..

Michie - Avg 28 Disposals and 1 goal a game

Jamar - back to AA form

Howe - 40-50 goals

McDonald - AA CHB

Trengove - Avg 30 disposals

If things like the above happen, the 8 players you mentioned should lift their game regardless..

You're only as good as your bottom players.. need the whole team to step up..

I understand the point you are making, but I think that applies more to established top 4 sides - makes the difference in winning or losing GFs.

I think we are different. We are constantly being told we have no elite players, and we haven't, but we'd better get some quick smart if we want to progress into the 8 and beyond.

This is my point in this thread. Who are these elite players likely to be from our current list?

Wrong approach.. You should be looking at our bottom tier best 22 players stepping it up.. It's these players that are going to bring us into top 8 contention..

Eg..

Evans - Avg 20 Disposals and 1 goal a game.

Tapscott - Shuts down opposition forward each week.

Kent - Kicks 35 goals as forward pocket..

Michie - Avg 28 Disposals and 1 goal a game

Jamar - back to AA form

Howe - 40-50 goals

McDonald - AA CHB

Trengove - Avg 30 disposals

If things like the above happen, the 8 players you mentioned should lift their game regardless..

You're only as good as your bottom players.. need the whole team to step up..

Edited October 29, 2013 by Dees2014

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,408]

I think Garland is also crucial, able to play small/tall. Like a lot of players will get even better under Roos. Eight is tough to name, we need luck with injurys and Grimes and Trengove to take the next step. The club is collectively out of excuses, and it doesn't take 2-3 seasons to learn a gameplan. Being competitive is free.

[Bedraggled Dee 336]

Top 8 Melbourne players starting 2014

Frawley

Garland

Grimes

Clark

Howe

Jones

Vince (obviously based on his work at the Crows)

Dawes

Improvement will need to come from the young blokes who are getting up towards the 50-70 games experience. We should expect the following to step up next year:

Rohan Bail - 44 games (concussion issues allowing)

Sam Bleaze - 31 games (limited games but been in the system long enough)

Neville Jetta - 41 games

Tommy Mac - 39 games

Jordie Mackenzie - 69 games

Luke Tapscott - 45 games

Jack Trengove - 79 games

I also think Dom Tyson, Jack Viney, and Jesse Hogan can make immediate impacts

[biggestred 5,138]

compare hawks and the blues

I would argue not a huge difference between their top 6.

hawks bottom 6 smash the blues bottom 6 every day of the week....

[InVINCEable 358]

1. Clark

2. Jones

3. Garland

4. Frawley

5. McDonald

6. Michie

7. Vince

8. Tyson

[drdrake 3,187]

Viney

Toumpas

Tyson

Michie

Trengove

Watts

Jones

Clark

The improvement has to come from our young midfielders, if we can start winning the footy and getting it inside our 50m arc we will win more games than we lose. Our forward 50m arc has the ability to kick big scores.

[titan_uranus 25,043]

compare hawks and the blues

I would argue not a huge difference between their top 6.

hawks bottom 6 smash the blues bottom 6 every day of the week....

Again, I don't want to turn this into the 400th instalment of the top six v bottom six debate, but when you are down the bottom of the ladder, growth doesn't come from the bottom players. You might argue that our bottom 6 are comparable to Carlton's too. But our top 6 are nowhere near it.

IMO, clubs down the bottom of the ladder need to develop a core top group of players to help push the up the ladder. Once that growth has been achieved, and you start looking like playing finals, then your bottom six need to come into the frame. Thus, yes, Carlton at the moment needs to fix its bottom six, or it won't compete with the likes of Hawthorn. Melbourne, on the other hand, needs to develop a top six capable of matching it with the better sides. Our bottom six is irrelevant until we have a top six that is good enough.

[RalphiusMaximus 6,088]

Very interesting thought. I think the reality for us is would be that we need a mix of a few stars having a good year and some of our lesser lights having an impact. The obvious one from the first category for me would be Clark. If he can play 20 games at something like his form from a couple of years ago we'd be off to a good start. If Blease were to get some consistency and hold down a spot in the side he'd be a huge benefit to us as well. Jones obviously to be midfield general. Viney to step up and play the whole season gives Jones more support and helps out the other new guys. Tyson likewise. IF Watts can rack up 20+ a game it would be huge. Add in your pick from Frawley, Garland and McDonald. We'd also need Grimes to have a big defensive impact of HB. I'm up to 10 here, which gives some idea of how much we need to go right to get into finals contention...

[Dees2014 2,377]

Top 8 Melbourne players starting 2014

Frawley

Garland

Grimes

Clark

Howe

Jones

Vince (obviously based on his work at the Crows)

Dawes

Improvement will need to come from the young blokes who are getting up towards the 50-70 games experience. We should expect the following to step up next year:

Rohan Bail - 44 games (concussion issues allowing)

Sam Bleaze - 31 games (limited games but been in the system long enough)

Neville Jetta - 41 games

Tommy Mac - 39 games

Jordie Mackenzie - 69 games

Luke Tapscott - 45 games

Jack Trengove - 79 games

I also think Dom Tyson, Jack Viney, and Jesse Hogan can make immediate impacts

I cannot envisage a successful Demon future without Hogan, Clark, Frawley, Gawn, Tyson, Toumpas, Viney and Watts all being A graders. And I believe every one of them are capable of it. I think our current list has that potential under a leader like Roos.

We shall see soon enough

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,408]

compare hawks and the blues

I would argue not a huge difference between their top 6.

hawks bottom 6 smash the blues bottom 6 every day of the week....

Pleases tell me Gibbs and Kruz aren't part of their best six. Edited October 29, 2013 by Al's Demons

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

You need the 22 players who are picked, to play their role to a consistently high standard each week

[biggestred 5,138]

Again, I don't want to turn this into the 400th instalment of the top six v bottom six debate, but when you are down the bottom of the ladder, growth doesn't come from the bottom players. You might argue that our bottom 6 are comparable to Carlton's too. But our top 6 are nowhere near it.

IMO, clubs down the bottom of the ladder need to develop a core top group of players to help push the up the ladder. Once that growth has been achieved, and you start looking like playing finals, then your bottom six need to come into the frame. Thus, yes, Carlton at the moment needs to fix its bottom six, or it won't compete with the likes of Hawthorn. Melbourne, on the other hand, needs to develop a top six capable of matching it with the better sides. Our bottom six is irrelevant until we have a top six that is good enough.

id argue that our top 22 aren't good enough

[beelzebub 23,383]

Everyone has to lift...its really that simple...not this 8 or that 6...everyone. No one is there yet, Jones included ( but close )

[titan_uranus 25,043]

id argue that our top 22 aren't good enough

Well yes, I think that's a given.

What I was trying to say was, if we were to focus on either our top six or our bottom six, which should we focus on? My answer to that is the top six.

[Satyriconhome 10,879]

id argue that our top 22 aren't good enough

Hopefully what we will see from a Roos coached side, is no superstars to begin with but as I said 22 players each playing their role to a consistently high standard, the Swans had any number of players who if you looked at them in isolation you wouldn't think much but put them in a team.........and Roos has made sure he has hired guys who did exactly that to show the way....Mathews, Allison, McPherson, Miller........

[Grimseyisgod 378]

1. Mitch Clark, would need to kick a massive bag of goals for us to be contenders to make finals

2. Nathan Jones, would need to push over averaging 25+ disposals per game and become more of a ball magnet

3. Chris Dawes, would need to start dominating and support Clark and add some grunt

4. James Frawley, would need to have another stellar year and be All Australian

5. Jack Watts, might actually have to start pulling his finger out, get his numbers up and kick some goals too

6. Jack Trengove, would need to start tearing games open and finding the footy. But he has the potential

7. Bernie Vince, would need to become a real prominent midfielder and find the footy big time

8. Jeremy Howe, would need to start being amazing at a more consistent level. The different between his good and bad would have to shrink.

Notice i did not include viney, Hogan, Toumpas, pick 9, Tyson might all have to have a serious impact but i cant include them because i feel as if they are too young to be so important. But they are important obviously.

Especially Viney

[Grimseyisgod 378]

Wrong approach.. You should be looking at our bottom tier best 22 players stepping it up.. It's these players that are going to bring us into top 8 contention..

Eg..

Evans - Avg 20 Disposals and 1 goal a game.

Tapscott - Shuts down opposition forward each week.

Kent - Kicks 35 goals as forward pocket..

Michie - Avg 28 Disposals and 1 goal a game

Jamar - back to AA form

Howe - 40-50 goals

McDonald - AA CHB

Trengove - Avg 30 disposals

If things like the above happen, the 8 players you mentioned should lift their game regardless..

You're only as good as your bottom players.. need the whole team to step up..

You are nuts to say 35 goals from Kent, Michie to average so high, Howe 40-50 and Trengove 30 disposals.

Lower the bar 20-30% and we'd be much improved even still

[Little Goffy 14,639]

I agree with the point that when you are weak, your best six keep you from being pathetic, and when you are strong, your weakest six are what can push you right to the very top.

A quick look at Carlton tells the story, really - they can look truly potent when key players are having good days, and are generally competitive, but until they add that depth they aren't going to be advancing anywhere further than mid-table/lower end of final 8.

I still think Richmond have to make that leap, too - their recent history has been all about their best six. I'm sure we've all experienced those conversations where a Richmond supporter rattles off a quick list of their 'big names' and challenges anyone to match it. Cotchin, Deledio, Riewoldt, Maric, Martin, umm... Jake King?

[Goodvibes 3,596]

Wrong approach.. You should be looking at our bottom tier best 22 players stepping it up.. It's these players that are going to bring us into top 8 contention..

How is that you posted this hours ago and BH hasn't yet told you about the importance of the top 6?

And I hope he does because it's a theory I support.

Depth is obviously important but we need 3 or 4 players to elevate themselves into the elite category. At the moment Jones is close and Frawley qualifies when at his best and Garland went close this year. Clark was in the class but for only briefly due to injury. If these four players are all fit and in form we're on our way. We then need two midfielders to emerge into that category to make us a serious footy team. Obviously Viney and Tyson are best placed to be those players. I've never been more confident that a player yet to play will enter the elite category as I am with Hogan. Toumpas, Watts and pick 9 still give us hope and I'm stubborn in my support of Max Gawn. I can't wait to see what he's capable of if the injury Gods give him a consistent crack at it over the next three seasons. If Frawley, Clark, Hogan, Jones, Viney and Tyson have All Australian years over the next three or four seasons we could become a contender. It's a good spread of talent across the field. The obvious benefits of having an elite top 6 is the pressure it takes of the next tier. Players like Watts, Howe and Blease suddenly become the cream and appear better than they otherwise would. Anyway, I'll let BH take it from here . . .

[DemonFrog 1,356]

Everyone has to lift...its really that simple...not this 8 or that 6...everyone. No one is there yet, Jones included ( but close )

Agree but it helps to recruit the best

Some how I feel these guys would have done better then the 2013 MFC Team.

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

Wrong approach.. You should be looking at our bottom tier best 22 players stepping it up.. It's these players that are going to bring us into top 8 contention..

Eg..

Evans - Avg 20 Disposals and 1 goal a game.

Tapscott - Shuts down opposition forward each week.

Kent - Kicks 35 goals as forward pocket..

Michie - Avg 28 Disposals and 1 goal a game

Jamar - back to AA form

Howe - 40-50 goals

McDonald - AA CHB

Trengove - Avg 30 disposals

If things like the above happen, the 8 players you mentioned should lift their game regardless..

You're only as good as your bottom players.. need the whole team to step up..

If those guys pulled off those stats/achievements, they'd be our top 8 players.

[Good Times Grimes 2,396]

Wrong approach.. You should be looking at our bottom tier best 22 players stepping it up.. It's these players that are going to bring us into top 8 contention..

Eg..

Evans - Avg 20 Disposals and 1 goal a game.

Tapscott - Shuts down opposition forward each week.

Kent - Kicks 35 goals as forward pocket..

Michie - Avg 28 Disposals and 1 goal a game

Jamar - back to AA form

Howe - 40-50 goals

McDonald - AA CHB

Trengove - Avg 30 disposals

If things like the above happen, the 8 players you mentioned should lift their game regardless..

You're only as good as your bottom players.. need the whole team to step up..

If those guys pulled off those stats/achievements, they'd be our top 8 players.

Agreed. Only Swan and Ablett averaged more than 30 disposals last year. If Trengove and Michie could get 28 and 30 it would make them two of the best mids in the competition...that's a pretty big step to take from a guy that hasn't fired a shot in two years and a guy who's played one AFL game.

For the record, I don't think it's a debate of bottom 8 players vs top 8 players making the difference, I think it's more that their improvement should complement each other. As our senior players improve, their leadership, attitudes, work ethic should rub off onto the "bottom tier" of players. Similarly, as the bottom tier improve, it makes it easier for the top tier to improve. For example, if Trengove wins the ball more often then Mitch Clark and Chris Dawes will be beneficiaries of that.

It's a bit of a chicken and egg argument, really.

Edited October 29, 2013 by Good Times Grimes