So if Bates is gone (and he is) who's our doctor now?

Vitamin injections are fine.

Every club does them.

They're not unlawful - even though to the average Joe they seem a little distasteful.

The article on the age website talks about a 6 month program at Melbourne but that is the first I have heard of it. My biggest concern is Craigs involvement as it suggests someone other than the doctor may have known.

I think our biggest concern is that a player or two may be suspended rather than the cub going through Essendon Mark 2.

If Trenners gets suspended then he would have every right to demand a trade or walk at the end of his contract. Forget Jack Watts. If this happens, the club has butchered this kid's career 9 ways from Sunday. Giving him the captaincy before he was ready, playing him pretty much as a glorified defensive forward and now (potentially) giving him illegal substances. This kid has been through the meat grinder.

AD seems to suggest, when asked on Adelaide radio, that no other club was detected doing the wrong thing, during the AFL audit, after the ACC alerted it.

He then says we may be investigated, but he seemed to dampen any fears.

Our issue seems far more confined/limited, as only 1-2 players even mentioned and both under doctor's supervision and Dank never employed by us, as AD confirms. Doctor has also left the club immediately. We acted on notice.

AOD cream was mentioned for one player's foot and Jaded posted that it is not an illegal cream and I recall another being referred to with a specific vitamin.

Not sure there is even any proof that these 2 players even got to use the mentioned items.

PJ also said a while ago he had no concerns in this area at all.

If all above is correct, we should not be panicking.

Red.. I'll try and track it down. I noted elsewhere and some time ago that it was the USFDA that allowed some approval for topical creams with AOD9604. There are some therapeutical products and quite some cosmetic that come into these categories.

I havent noticed any approval tacit or otherwise from WADA on this as in their view ( my reading ) whether subtucaneous or topical a substance banned is banned. or..A substance not approved, is not aproved.

From Jon Pieriks article

"The ABC's 7.30 revealed a series of text messages between Dank and Bates, mentioning Neil Craig, then the Demons' director of performance but now a caretaker coach, ruckman Mark Jamar and co-captain Jack Trengove. The messages are said to have spanned more than six months from mid 2012 and suggest a supplements program was run.

The messages show Dank and Bates discussed several substances, including the anti-obesity drug AOD-9604, cerebrolysin and thymomodulin."

From Jon Pieriks article

"The ABC's 7.30 revealed a series of text messages between Dank and Bates, mentioning Neil Craig, then the Demons' director of performance but now a caretaker coach, ruckman Mark Jamar and co-captain Jack Trengove. The messages are said to have spanned more than six months from mid 2012 and suggest a supplements program was run.

The messages show Dank and Bates discussed several substances, including the anti-obesity drug AOD-9604, cerebrolysin and thymomodulin."

Just because they were discussed, doesn't mean they were administered.

It's not illegal to talk about this stuff. Dank was obviously pushing this stuff, doesn't mean Bates took it on board, or that if he was keen, that somebody else at the club didn't stop him.

I only care about what our documents say, and who was administered what.

As someone said above, vitamin injections are not illegal.

From Jon Pieriks article

"The ABC's 7.30 revealed a series of text messages between Dank and Bates, mentioning Neil Craig, then the Demons' director of performance but now a caretaker coach, ruckman Mark Jamar and co-captain Jack Trengove. The messages are said to have spanned more than six months from mid 2012 and suggest a supplements program was run.

The messages show Dank and Bates discussed several substances, including the anti-obesity drug AOD-9604, cerebrolysin and thymomodulin."

Discussed is entirely different to using.

So if Bates is gone (and he is) who's our doctor now?

Its Melbourne so my guess is Dr Frankinstein as we all love untried, untested and unskilled people in this Club.

Its Melbourne so my guess is Dr Frankinstein as we all love untried, untested and unskilled people in this Club.

Dr. Frankenstein would be perfect fit for the MFC. He is very experienced with bringing dead tissue back to life.

Its Melbourne so my guess is Dr Frankinstein as we all love untried, untested and unskilled people in this Club.

I was guessing Doctor Nick Riviera from the Simpsons or Zoidberg from Futurama.

I think you need to look at the following part of the AFL statement in relation to our club as well.

We have records of exactly what the players were given.

Given that they weren't stupid enough to misplace the records of these treatments we should be perfectly safe assuming they are being truthful.

How ironic if we end up having an issue because we keep proper records and Bombers get off much more lightly because they didn't keep records so there is no definitive proof of the illegal substances they took or didn't take.

The article on the age website talks about a 6 month program at Melbourne but that is the first I have heard of it. My biggest concern is Craigs involvement as it suggests someone other than the doctor may have known.

I think our biggest concern is that a player or two may be suspended rather than the cub going through Essendon Mark 2.

This comes from a text between Bates and Dank where the Dr seems to think that Craig will employ Dank if a meeting with the two goes well. It obviously didn't because Dank was never on staff.

Thanks rpfc. If any players went along with bates and meet with Dank off site when Dank wasn't paid or hired by the club etc, the players deserve any punishment they get of they did is something illegal. So does Bates for doing things in secret behind the club's back, after we decided not to give Dank a position.

But that is hardly anything to condemn the club for. It seems we checked him out, decided against it, moved on.

If anything this is "rogue element" post opposed to Essendon which is closrr to "systematic program which broke the rules".

Edited August 29, 201312 yr by deanox

OK

some links and some reading for those interested.

Ill attempt a brief precis:

AOD-9604 , Allegations, Opinions and Doping , So what ??

from article:

"What this means is that a substance that does not meet the government therapeutic drug regulatory guidelines for humans of at least one country would fall within this section. What this also means is that if a drug that has been approved by the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in the US but not by the Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) in Australia would presumably fail under S0. The anaesthetic drug of Etomidate is an example that may fit into this situation (although not been reported in sport use). Similarly, the fact that the Romanian Ministry of Health has previously approved the use of Humanofort (containing thymosin beta-4) as a nutritive supplement in humans potentially means that thymosin beta-4 may not qualify under section S0 of the prohibited list."

Another link referencing AOD-9694 granted GRAS for use as additive

"Metabolic has recently achieved a self-affirmed GRAS (Generally Recognised As Safe) status (conditional on a journal publication of existing safety data) which allows the marketing of AOD9604 into the US market. This means that AOD9604 can be legally added to foods, drinks, nutraceuticals & dietary supplements."

Now even though essentially the USFDA has granted tacit approval via the GRAS of AOD-9604 for use in creams, foods , cosmetics this does not give a green light to use as per WADA code.

I don't think the WADA code differentiates between absorbtion and injection in terms of banned /prohibited or otherwise. The delivery methods only really go to efficiencies.

fmd its hard to make heads or tails out of all this..

Just because they were discussed, doesn't mean they were administered.

It's not illegal to talk about this stuff. Dank was obviously pushing this stuff, doesn't mean Bates took it on board, or that if he was keen, that somebody else at the club didn't stop him.

I only care about what our documents say, and who was administered what.

As someone said above, vitamin injections are not illegal.

Jaded, you sound just like an Essendon fan.

So if Bates is gone (and he is) who's our doctor now?

DR BRIAN IRONWOOD BSA

Thanks rpfc. If any players went along with bates and meet with Dank off site when Dank wasn't paid or hired by the club etc, the players deserve any punishment they get of they did is something illegal. So does Bates for doing things in secret behind the club's back, after we decided not to give Dank a position.

But that is hardly anything to condemn the club for. It seems we checked him out, decided against it, moved on.

If anything this is "rogue element" post opposed to Essendon which is closrr to "systematic program which broke the rules".

If nothing else the club can condemned for hiring the Dr...

I don't know the extent of Dank's involvement with the players but the club obviously was not aware either and that is pretty damnable...

Edited August 29, 201312 yr by rpfc

My guess at all this is that the media got all hyped up during the investigatory process re: Essendon and latched onto anything that related to Dank, or AOD, or anything like that, however deep/meaningful/important.

That's why Melbourne's involvement came to the fore. Even though, on what we know, all that happened was that Trengove was administered a cream (which people are suggesting isn't banned, though I don't know), and Dunn was administered an injection (I'm not even sure that's confirmed).

Two players, two instances, one of which (or maybe both, given what ASADA may or may not have said about AOD) might have been legal. No widespread administration, no 'pharmacologically experimental environment'. No disregard for players' health and wellbeing by practicing with concoctions.

The issue of Dank being involved is relevant, but there is a difference between directly hiring him, like Essendon did, and having his involvement concealed by the doctor, as with Bates. To me, the MFC was at worst negligent in failing to discover his involvement, but that's even pushing it somewhat.

It all appears to be far less serious at Melbourne.

I have read somewhere that Danks wanted to get started using this stuff for horses. Now from what I have read it leads me to believe Essendon but how in the hell would we know if it wasn't Melbourne players. Mr Dunn was apparently getting excited about some needles which some others felt good about. I hope I am so far off the track.

FWIW this was told to me a few months ago by someone while not involved at AFL level is heavily involved in the VFL and also with local football so therefore talks to a lot of people in the football world. Dank approached the club touting his "supplements" program. The club while initially interested did not have the funds at the time to pay for it and before anything had actually started the Essendon story broke causing MFC to at once break off all contact with Dank.So although, yes there was contact with Dank it was mainly preliminary only

So if Bates is gone (and he is) who's our doctor now?

Correct, Doctor Who.

FWIW this was told to me a few months ago by someone while not involved at AFL level is heavily involved in the VFL and also with local football so therefore talks to a lot of people in the football world. Dank approached the club touting his "supplements" program. The club while initially interested did not have the funds at the time to pay for it and before anything had actually started the Essendon story broke causing MFC to at once break off all contact with Dank.So although, yes there was contact with Dank it was mainly preliminary only

Nevertheless, Dank did what appears to have been some freelance consulting with Dr. Bate about which the club might not have been aware and which might also be a problem for one of our players one of these days.

So if Bates is gone (and he is) who's our doctor now?

I hope the muppet's been de-registered too.

Edited August 29, 201312 yr by TheoX

If we are found to have been taking drugs then that is all the proof you need that they don't work....or that we are really really bad

If we are found to have been taking drugs then that is all the proof you need that they don't work....or that we are really really bad

Or both. Pray for us.