Bombers scandal: charged, <redacted> and <infracted>

[old dee 24,006]

Surely you jest

Cannot find my source at the moment but 11,000 injections upto 40 players So the players were to get almost 300 injections each of various substances and nobody keep records! I am not saying this of you but only a simpleton would accept the no records were kept lie.

Here is a short list of the drugs allegedly given to the players from the 34 page Notice of Charges (page 24-25):

• actovegin
• unspecified amino acids
• unspecified multi-vitamins
• AOD-9604 creams
• AOD-9604 injections
• cerebrolysin
• colostrum
• REDACTED (it’s blanked out in the charge list)
• lactaway
• lube-all-plus
• melatonin
• melanotan II
• TA-65
• thymosin beta 4
• traumeel
• tribulus

And what, nobody keep any records of who took what. Get real. It is a massive cover up by Essendon.

Check out the articles on. https://theconversation.com/topics/essendon

I always find that sort of statement funny Mandee.

It is similar to " I don't intend to insult you" and then go right ahead and do it.

However mate you can call me a simpleton if that is what you think, I have a thick skin I won't cry myself to sleep tonight.

Calling me a liar will get my dander up, but we are safe there.

I will just maintain my stance that most conspiracy's are in fact just incompetent stuff ups.

[old dee 24,006]

From memory, one of the sticking points with the AFL/Essendon punishment negotiations was that Essendon would, under no circumstances, agree to anything that stated they had given their players anything illegal.

Have they in fact opened themselves up to further punishment if more than 2 players receive sanctions? One can only hope!

Isn't it two or more?

[John Crow Batty 8,882]

There should also have been receipts and invoices for the quite substantial costs of the drugs. Looks like there has been some fiddling with the books or payments were made in brown paper bags to illicit drug dealers

Edited March 5, 2014 by america de cali

[ManDee 7,323]

I always find that sort of statement funny Mandee.

It is similar to " I don't intend to insult you" and then go right ahead and do it.

However mate you can call me a simpleton if that is what you think, I have a thick skin I won't cry myself to sleep tonight.

Calling me a liar will get my dander up, but we are safe there.

I will just maintain my stance that most conspiracy's are in fact just incompetent stuff ups.

Sorry, really had no intentions of insulting you. I certainly have no knowledge that would indicate that you are a simpleton, quite the contrary.

I suppose my over zealous rant led to including you. You may well be right that "most conspiracy's are in fact just incompetent stuff ups."

I don't think this is one of those cases. But I respect your right to disagree.

Go dees!

PS:- I read my rant again, it was poorly/hastily written. I accept the wrath. It does read like a dig at you. Your point was fair "most conspiracy's" My humble apologies

Edited March 5, 2014 by ManDee

[old dee 24,006]

Sorry, really had no intentions of insulting you. I certainly have no knowledge that would indicate that you are a simpleton, quite the contrary.

I suppose my over zealous rant led to including you. You may well be right that "most conspiracy's are in fact just incompetent stuff ups."

I don't think this is one of those cases. But I respect your right to disagree.

Go dees!

Oh God sorry Mandee I was not getting agro or anything.

All sweet with me mate.

I have no intention of getting into an argument with a Dees supporter over the bloody EFC.

I hope we can win a few this year and make both us happy.

[ManDee 7,323]

Oh God sorry Mandee I was not getting agro or anything.

All sweet with me mate.

I have no intention of getting into an argument with a Dees supporter over the bloody EFC.

I hope we can win a few this year and make both us happy.

We are good. I had no intention of upsetting you. You were right to pick up on that point, thank you. The last thing I want to do is be rude to MFC supporters.

I am quite happy to give it to Essendon at every opportunity.

Edited March 5, 2014 by ManDee

[sue 9,197]

Now that ManDee and OldDee have kissed and made up, I have to agree with ManDee (minus simpleton).

Anyway, this is not a case of "conspiracy versus [censored]-up". I don't see shredding the records as a conspiracy. I see it as the natural act of someone holding evidence that incriminates themselves.

[Cards13 9,117]

I nearly dropped my pop corn when I saw the lube all plus. One can only assume this is to allow Brand Hird to get there heads in his a hole, it would be a tight fit with James and his wifes head in there already.

[old dee 24,006]

Now that ManDee and OldDee have kissed and made up, I have to agree with ManDee (minus simpleton).

Anyway, this is not a case of "conspiracy versus [censored]-up". I don't see shredding the records as a conspiracy. I see it as the natural act of someone holding evidence that incriminates themselves.

Excuse my ignorance but is there evidence they did away with the records?

I have never seen that stated anywhere.

Now Mandee may be correct I may be a simpleton but I have never seen that up til now.

[daisycutter 29,894]

I nearly dropped my pop corn when I saw the lube all plus. One can only assume this is to allow Brand Hird to get there heads in his a hole, it would be a tight fit with James and his wifes head in there already.

you were lucky it was only popcorn, i dropped a whole jar of viagra

[old dee 24,006]

I nearly dropped my pop corn when I saw the lube all plus. One can only assume this is to allow Brand Hird to get there heads in his a hole, it would be a tight fit with James and his wifes head in there already.

Impossible I would have thought!

[old dee 24,006]

you were lucky it was only popcorn, i dropped a whole jar of viagra

Lucky man dc you have the use for a whole jar!!

[ManDee 7,323]

Excuse my ignorance but is there evidence they did away with the records?

I have never seen that stated anywhere.

Now Mandee may be correct I may be a simpleton but I have never seen that up til now.

(h) failed to identify and record the source from which all substances used by players

were obtained;

(i) failed to adequately monitor and record the use of substances;

(j) failed to audit or monitor all substances held on the premises of the Club;

(k) failed to implement a system for recording and storing all substances held on the

premises of the Club;

etc. etc. etc.

follow the link and read on. http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/EssendonFC-notice-of-charges.pdf

It is an amazing read.

I am not saying there is any evidence that they did away with the records, but it is obvious that they did.

PS:- I promise not to use the word simpleton again. Well, I will endeavor not to use it again!

Edited March 5, 2014 by ManDee

[old dee 24,006]

(h) failed to identify and record the source from which all substances used by players

were obtained;

(i) failed to adequately monitor and record the use of substances;

(j) failed to audit or monitor all substances held on the premises of the Club;

(k) failed to implement a system for recording and storing all substances held on the

premises of the Club;

etc. etc. etc.

follow the link and read on. http://www.afl.com.au/staticfile/AFL%20Tenant/AFL/Files/EssendonFC-notice-of-charges.pdf

It is an amazing read.

PS:- I promise not to use the word simpleton again. Well, I will endeavor not to use it again!

I understand all that but I don't believe it says they destroyed the records.

To me it says they were just haphazard and incompetent.

Is that not the case?

[sue 9,197]

OldDee, if firm evidence ever comes out proving that they did destroy records, they will be in massive trouble.

But if I had to bet on whether they simply never kept any or did keep them but destroyed them when the excrement started to hit the fan, I know where I'd put my money. As I said it's not conspiracy vs stuff-up, it's Incompetence versus cover-up. I don't think Essendon would be that incompetent.

[ManDee 7,323]

I understand all that but I don't believe it says they destroyed the records.

To me it says they were just haphazard and incompetent.

Is that not the case?

I added a line in my edit. I am not saying there is any evidence that they did away with the records, but it is obvious that they did.

Caught me twice in one day shooting off before I was ready to shoot. I suffer from premature-posting. Essendon probably have something for that left in the cupboard.

[Jack Jack 415]

Isn't it two or more?

Yes, I think you're right.

[daisycutter 29,894]

I understand all that but I don't believe it says they destroyed the records.

To me it says they were just haphazard and incompetent.

Is that not the case?

you are generally more cynical than that od

do you really think you could run a program with those large numbers on so many people for such a long time at such a big cost without records?

how would you even measure the effectiveness of a costly program without records

there had to be many records. the club cannot find those records......put 2 and 2 together

Edited March 5, 2014 by daisycutter

[beelzebub 23,390]

OldDee, if firm evidence ever comes out proving that they did destroy records, they will be in massive trouble.

But if I had to bet on whether they simply never kept any or did keep them but destroyed them when the excrement started to hit the fan, I know where I'd put my money. As I said it's not conspiracy vs stuff-up, it's Incompetence versus cover-up. I don't think Essendon would be that incompetent.

The whole Mengelean like affair was supposed to effectively be a controlled experiment to evaluate outcomes vis a vis controlled dosages. The ONLY way to evaluate that is to measure bu recorded outcomes against what ever the poor sods were pumped with. There would HAVE to have been records or the whole thing was a waste of time, by anyones standards or motives.

They destroyed the evidence or hid it...Holmes would concur this as being the only logical deduction.

[ManDee 7,323]

you are generally more cynical than that od

do you really think you could run a program with those large numbers on so many people for such a long time at such a big cost without records?

how would you even measure the effectiveness of a costly program without records

there had to be many records. the club cannot find those records......put 2 and 2 together

Four is the answer, we know that, but if you don't show the working out some people will not accept the answer. You may say they are pedantic (not you OD) I say that technically they are correct (Yes you OD). For without the working out (detail) how can you prove the answer. So for many of us knowing the answer is enough. But that is not so for all.

[jnrmac 20,276]

This one suspects there were no records.

It appears to me that the whole thing was haphazard with no one controlling it, everyone thought someone else was doing it.

It is my experience that most great conspiracy's were in actual fact just incompetent stuff ups.

Agree with your conspiracy theory but in this case I think they were running an experiment and when you do that you keep records because you want to know what works and what doesn't.

Remember they didn't think they were doing anything wrong so there was no need not to keep records or destroy records.

Still the two biggest stand out things for me are why workcover isn't involved and why they haven't interviewed Dank. Something smells.

[ManDee 7,323]

Agree with your conspiracy theory but in this case I think they were running an experiment and when you do that you keep records because you want to know what works and what doesn't.

Remember they didn't think they were doing anything wrong so there was no need not to keep records or destroy records.

Still the two biggest stand out things for me are why workcover isn't involved and why they haven't interviewed Dank. Something smells.

You are not the only one wondering about workcover. I think it will come. I think it is a matter of getting ones ducks in a line.

https://theconversation.com/time-for-ohs-regulators-to-get-off-the-bench-and-into-the-game-17039

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

OldDee, if firm evidence ever comes out proving that they did destroy records, they will be in massive trouble.

I don't think Essendon would be that incompetent.

Agree Sue. If there is evidence of record destruction then EFC are in big trouble. If anyone can remember Arthur Andersen auditors shredding records when Enron collapsed in 2001 it brought the collapse of the global accounting firm. However I don't think there is any evidence at this stage of record destruction. OD is right on this one.

And in the past three years I have stopped being surprised at the incompetence at times of football clubs. It is still plausible that EFC have been incredibly incompetent at a number of levels.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Agree with your conspiracy theory but in this case I think they were running an experiment and when you do that you keep records because you want to know what works and what doesn't.

Remember they didn't think they were doing anything wrong so there was no need not to keep records or

Conversely, Its also possible that they did not see the need to keep adequate records. Sinister is a possible outcome but so is (incredibly) incompetent, cavalier and slipshod.

Despite some resorting to equation it's not proven on what we know as to what actually happened. I am hoping ASADA can answer these issues. If ASADA does resolve to issues notices then due questions will be raised why they have not did not interview Dank. I suspect that Workcover will wait for the outcome of the ASADA investigation. What would you expect Workcover to do above and beyond ASADAs remit especially when there is an absence of records.

[beelzebub 23,390]

Why on earth would you NOT have records when the whole exercise is based upon prescribed (sic) inputs and logged outputs

They were trying to create the Master Race as it applies to footy.

Theres records... to think otherwise is really naive