Jack Trengove in 2013

[Geddy Lee 582]

So Neitz would have been as good as Lockett, Dunstall, Ablett, Carey, etc if he was in as good a team ?

You're delusional and have a horrible footy IQ.

Not to hi-jack but I learnt this morning that Carey regarded Dunstall as the greatest he saw and played against.

Only 188cms tall.

Fast and bloody strong.

4 Premierships.

Won the Coleman in his 4th Season.

Came Top 3 in the Brownlow FOUR times.

4.7 goals/game.

Plenty of Goal Assists (before they were counted).

Would take him over everyone but Carey ironically. Can't really put Neita up with these guys, as much as I love the big fella.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Not to hi-jack but I learnt this morning that Carey regarded Dunstall as the greatest he saw and played against.

Only 188cms tall.

Fast and bloody strong.

4 Premierships.

Won the Coleman in his 4th Season.

Came Top 3 in the Brownlow FOUR times.

4.7 goals/game.

Plenty of Goal Assists (before they were counted).

Would take him over everyone but Carey ironically. Can't really put Neita up with these guys, as much as I love the big fella.

No, but you can. All you have to do is think it and post it. It makes no sense, but if you say he would have been as good as those players if he'd had the same opportunities it can't be disproved.

See. Easy.

Edited December 2, 2012 by Ben-Hur

[Good Times Grimes 2,396]

This is more of a David Neitz thread than a Jack Trengove thread... so, in order to not disrupt the conversation I'll stay "on topic": David Neitz was an MFC champion. He was an All-Australian at both ends of the ground, a Coleman Medal winner, the MFC games AND goals record holder, and he captained us to many finals and even a Grand Final. Despite this resume, however, he is not a champion of the game. As great as he was, I could name 10 FFs off the top of my head who I would put ahead of Neita. I loved watching him play, and he will remain an MFC icon forever, but to me he is no more than that.

Jimmy Stynes, on the other hand, was a great of the game. I don't see how anybody could say otherwise.

[My TD 156]

Neitz was an outstanding player, but not a champion. Didn't "carpe diem" in the big moment often enough. Hitting the post from metres out first q 2000 GF classic example.

Exactly.

Missed the 1st two I believe.

Ball then went down the other end to "champion" Hird .... Goal.

Thats the difference.

Edited December 2, 2012 by My TD

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

since I am the one who opened the 'we can't make champions' can of worms, can I just say this - even if we go ahead and count Neitz, Stynes, Lyon and Flower, that's 4 blokes in 40 years. In 2008 the cats had 7 players in the AA side, how far away from that are we, James Frawley is the only AA player on the list, who has made it once in 6 years. My point is that it is indisputable that there is something wrong with our process of developing young footballers, even when we have access to the highest quality draftees. Watts and Trengove are the latest examples, we need them to become genuine champions or we will remain also-rans, simple as that

[Hannibal 5,814]

Jimmy Stynes, on the other hand, was a great of the game. I don't see how anybody could say otherwise.

Terrific player and a great of the MFC, but he wasn't a great of the game, imo.

[old dee 23,704]

Terrific player and a great of the MFC, but he wasn't a great of the game, imo.

In my opinion 264 games of which 244 were without a break and a Brownlow medal makes you a great of the game

[Tatu 416]

since I am the one who opened the 'we can't make champions' can of worms, can I just say this - even if we go ahead and count Neitz, Stynes, Lyon and Flower, that's 4 blokes in 40 years. In 2008 the cats had 7 players in the AA side, how far away from that are we, James Frawley is the only AA player on the list, who has made it once in 6 years. My point is that it is indisputable that there is something wrong with our process of developing young footballers, even when we have access to the highest quality draftees. Watts and Trengove are the latest examples, we need them to become genuine champions or we will remain also-rans, simple as that

pretty sure Jamar made AA, the same year as Frawley....

Flower and Stynes would be the only two, that I would comfortably call champions..... The Ox would have been the best we ever had, if his bones weren't made of sticks....

[Dee Fan 3,247]

By necessity Neitz became a forward when the Ox went down; if not for that he could have become one of the great CHB's of all time. In my opinion he was much better in the backline and unfortunately when he went forward he lost a bit, he was still good there but not as good.

[rjay 24,834]

Terrific player and a great of the MFC, but he wasn't a great of the game, imo.

Definitely one of the great stories of the game but I'm with you on this, I couldn't rate him with the ones I've mentioned before.

[Biffen 12,940]

Terrific player and a great of the MFC, but he wasn't a great of the game, imo.

Yet I doubt Wayne Carey will get a State Funeral .

[rjay 24,834]

Yet I doubt Wayne Carey will get a State Funeral .

Think you might be on the money there 'Bif'.

It's a little like the argument Collingwood have been making to get Lou as a legend of the game. He is certainly a legendary figure of the game as is Jimmy but Jimmy has transcended the game with his outside work and influence.

It's all a matter of definition in the end and even then there is still personal opinion as to that definition and who fits the criteria.

[binman 42,500]

IMHO, since say 1975 the dees have only had one out and out champion player (I'm defining champion as a player who is in the top 30 players of the 'modern era" ie the last 40 years). And that's Robbie Flower.

As a couple of people have noted, the ox had the potential to be in that league, but injuries cruelled him. Lyon was a top shelf A grade player, but not a champion. I was always (and still am) a huge Neita fan but i rank him a few notches below Lyon and a fair way of champion level. Top bloke, great club man but not a champion.

I suspect those on this thread claiming he is didn't see him play that often. He was confidence player and if he stared poorly rarely could turn it around, particularly with his marking. Got in great positions but dropped way too many marks. Also never could kick bags.

One champion in 40 years. No wonder we've not won a flag in that time.

Edited December 2, 2012 by binman

[ThreeOneSix 954]

Demonlands love child in Trengove, needs to improve a lot in 2013.

His captaincy not only depends on it - but his place in the side.

Hopefully he can regain some pace, any sort of pace would be welcome.

[rjay 24,834]

Demonlands love child in Trengove, needs to improve a lot in 2013.

His captaincy not only depends on it - but his place in the side.

Hopefully he can regain some pace, any sort of pace would be welcome.

As has been stated many times, you don't lose pace as a 20yo. Something else, most probable OP was at play.

I expect Trengove to establish himself as an A grader in the next couple of years, lets hope he can convert this to elite.

[Good Times Grimes 2,396]

Terrific player and a great of the MFC, but he wasn't a great of the game, imo.

Think about the background he came from. Then to work as hard as he did not only to learn the sport and get a game at the highest level, but also to revolutionize the role of the ruckman. He was Melbourne's best player in a losing Grand Final effort in '88. He won the game's highest individual honour after having only picked up a football seven years earlier. He played 244 consecutive games, despite having his fair share of injuries. He made the MFC's Team of the Century, and won four club B&Fs. That qualifies him as a champion of the game in my books.

[Sir Why You Little 36,939]

Trengove is an average player thus far...

He does have time on his side.

[mjt 640]

Terrific player and a great of the MFC, but he wasn't a great of the game, imo.

Thats [censored], blokes myself who were born with a footy in there hands couldnt make it to highest level, yet he flys over from the otherside of the world and wins a Brownlow, he paved the way for our game to go International, he should have legend status.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Think about the background he came from. Then to work as hard as he did not only to learn the sport and get a game at the highest level, but also to revolutionize the role of the ruckman. He was Melbourne's best player in a losing Grand Final effort in '88. He won the game's highest individual honour after having only picked up a football seven years earlier. He played 244 consecutive games, despite having his fair share of injuries. He made the MFC's Team of the Century, and won four club B&Fs. That qualifies him as a champion of the game in my books.

You and others are welcome to your opinion, but I don't consider him a great of the game. I wouldn't get into a heated argument over it and nor do I wish to upset anyone, but for me he never reached the heights of players such as Matthews, Carey, Greg Williams, Hird, Voss, Locket, Dunstall, Simon Madden, etc. Keith Greig won two Brownlows and was named on the wing in the TOC, but I also don't consider him a great of the game.

No-one is disputing how great a story the Jim Stynes story is, or what he had to overcome to be the player he was after he was sent packing back to Prahran. It is the greatest story of all time, but as a player he never reached the heights to make him a genuine great of the game for me.

I don't like the term "great of the game" being bandied about. People too easily class players as champions of the game. The ones I mentioned were, Stynes wasn't. I'm happy to disagree and leave it there.

[Jarka 767]

In the first half of last season he really struggled, but as has already been pointed out his 1% were still quite good. At all times he worked and ran hard, especially when we didn't have the ball. He looked like a kid who was trying too hard, and my opinion is that he really struggled with the pressures of the captaincy. It was almost like he ran so hard to get the ball that when he did get it he was exhasuted to do anything decent with it, his disposal and goal kicking was ordinary. He also tried too hard with the physical stuff, trying to be the enforcer.

After the wins against Essendon and GWS though I think he looked much better, a lot more composed and less stressed and looked like he was running better. His disposal quality was much better and he was linking up really well when we actually moved the ball with purpose down the ground. The captaincy issue didn't seem to effect him as much.

It was a hard year for him, not only did he have to worry about his own development but he had to take on the issues of trying to lead a poor team. There were many factors effecting his performance but I firmly believe that he'll be a much better player for going through it all. I'm expecting a big improvement in 2013.

[rpfc 28,244]

Then just leave it there...

Back on Trengove: my opinion of his year is that he was disappointing but a hard worker and leader in a team bereft of them.

He was a member of about 10 players that gave everything and needed help.

I can see the criticism of his year but to say he was close or is close to beig dropped is just exciting language designed to elicit a response.

[Hannibal 5,814]

Good post, Jarka.

In Trengove's 4th year I want to see him get one BOG. He's never had one, but his class ensures he's quite capable of having that type of influence on a game. I expect to see at least one BOG and hopefully more from Trengove in 2013.

[Sir Why You Little 36,939]

He couldn't kick over 30 metres. Think back to some of his goal kicking...

Take off the red & blue sunnies peeps. If Trenners had been on a Top 4 list he would have been dropped and rightly so.

As i said above he does have time on his side but he now has to show it not just talk it.

Edited December 3, 2012 by why you little

[nutbean 8,838]

While we are on the subject of champions, how is it that Robbie only ever won one MFC B & F?

Laurie Fowler, Stan Alves and Greg Wells all managed multiples in that era ..

My take ( and Laurie Fowler was the perfect example).

During Flowers reign and before the B&F votes used to go to the player not with most skill but with the most G&D - Laurie Fowler was semi skilled and certainly not in Flowers league but he was suicidal brave and never ever gave in. Not that Robbie gave in or wasnt brave, but I also think his star rose so quickly that we came to expect 99/100 from him and he would get votes at 100/100 but not at 98/100.

[nutbean 8,838]

If he had played in a top side as a full forward he would have kicked over 100 goals on multiple occasions.

.

The Demons reached a grand final in 2000 with a crap list apparently according to some so called intelligent Demon supporters which contained players such as Green, The Ox, Neitz, Farmer, Yze, White all champions unfortunately denied a flag because of a pack of thugs coached by Sheedy.

if Neitz would have played in the same sides as the players you mentioned he would have been a champion and would have reached the same heights.

wow...wow..and wow - ok - where to start - Neitz didnt play for another side so your assumption that he would have kicked 100 goals multiple times falls under the "IMSHBSBMB hypothesis (if my sister had balls she's be my brother)

You are now lauding Green, Farmer, Yze and White as champions as well ? (FYI - a champion team will always beat a team of champions - well we proved twice that there wasnt quite enough cream to win flags - we had really good footballers playing as a team - but champion footballers ? noooooo)

As for Sheedy's thugs - we didnt lose because they were thugs - we lost because they were bigger better and stronger mentally and physically than us ( same as 1988)

Then in your last quote you have gone with the "if he played in the same sides he would have been a champion" - again, speculative at best, impossible to prove or disprove as he didnt play with the those team, and I do like the way you shifted to the "if"

Lets compare him to Robbie Flower who played in far worse teams than Neitz - and only tasted success in his last year with Northey. No "if he played for other teams"...no "if had better footballers around him". He played in a crap team and distinguished himself in the top half dozen wingman to play the game.

I think we have all have acknowledged that Neita is a champion of the club - but in my opinion he is not a champion of the game