Role-playing

[45HG 1,539]

No, I'm not talking frisky-business.

I've been looking at the Swans side and thinking just how well they have been able to groom players from other clubs to fill a role within their own structure.

Players such as Ted Richards and Rhyce Shaw immediately come to mind - players out of favour at their previous clubs who have been brought into the team for specific reasons. Others, to varying degrees, include Mcglynn, Kennedy, Mumford not to mention players from differing pedigrees Kennelly and Pyke.

A number of reasons have been offered as to why they have been able to gel so well in the Harbour Town.

One of them is the culture. The players are relatively unknown in Sydney and are able to go about their business in an un-assuming manner, focusing essentially on the task at hand. By accounts, many of the players live close together and have formed a close-knit culture (Bloods culture, thanks Kirky!)

Another reason that I've been thinking today is the notion of playing a role. Each player at Sydney seems to have a set role to play in each and every game. Each players seems to know his role inside out and as a by-product, seems capable of playing that role most weeks.

Obviously, this can leave them somewhat one-dimensional, but I think it has been crucial to Sydney reaching the top of the tree again without needing to rebuild.

Guys like Ted Richards are given a specific portfolio. They are instructed exactly how the team are to play and told explicitly how to play the role. The result of which leaves Richards knowing exactly what he needs to do. He would be acutely aware of successes and failures.

The key point to this is that each team needs a clear direction for the type of footy it wants to play and then the coach needs to recruit players who will fill the parts of that machine.

Obviously, teams like Hawthorn are a different case. I think that's what happens when you land guys of the Franklin/Roughead/Rioli ilk with Hodge/Mitchell to lead.

Teams like Melbourne seem to have never established this culture, this game plan, this strategy. Too often, forwards have turned midfielders or vice versa with seemingly little regard for how this will help the team function. Perhaps we have not had a culture where the players feel that they can go about the task in an unassuming manner because they are turned to rock stars at the drop of a hat or not given a system to work towards.

It's with this in mind that I will be interested to see which players we target/land in the trade period or through FA. Players who may seem to fit the system that Neeld and Craig seem to be implementing. Players who will, hopefully, help to instil a culture of hard-work, success and thirst for the contest within the club. Not world-beaters on their own, I hope they will be part of the Melbourne revolution.

I look at a team like Sydney with a lot of respect because it takes each player to work to the top of their game. Obviously their top 6 is very good, but I don't think it's near the top 6 of the best teams in the comp.

Theirs is a complete team and, I think, a role-model for our club.

Go Dees! (Go the Swans tomorrow!)

[Dr. Gonzo 24,110]

It's also about trying to build the best TEAM instead of just collecting the best group of individuals. Looking at Sydney, particularly last week, they just play as one cohesive unit with wave after wave of Swans players attacking the ball and the Collingwood players. It's like a giant net, one hole weakens the entire structure. Building a team comes down to development and having faith that you can take a raw product like Richards or Shaw and mould them into the player that you want them to be to fit into your team, not just letting them turn into the player they want to develop into. This is where roles are important as you suggest because it give a clear pathway for the player to follow instead of just letting a guy like Sylvia for instance just run out and play his own game.

Edited September 28, 2012 by Dr. Gonzo

[Sir Why You Little 36,862]

I think the Demons could get the same culture as the Swans. Because nobody respects us or expexts us to win.

People laugh when i say i am an MFC supporter.

Outside here we mean nothing. Sad but it is true.

[dpositive 1,663]

Again we have reference to Culture which may be inappropriate. We have been presented with the Geelong, Collingwood, West Coast, Hawthorn, Adelaideeven North Melbourne "culture", I dont think they are all the same(?). Fitzroy had a culture even South Melbourne (The bloods)

So yes there is something I am just a little nervous about attributing the flag or ultimate success to "culture".

The flag will add something to the culture but all the above have also spent time at the bottom was this also solely the "culture"

A more important part of success is getting the right components, creating the right structures to achieve an identified outcome.

I have seen so many 5 year plans begin some part of the complex build only to abandoned after 3 years for a completely different direction

Perhaps the "culture" of persistence needs to be added to the culture of resilience that we already have. I recall hearing so often that supporting Melbourne was "character building". That is also part of "the culture".

Lets get "the Culture" into perspective and start to get some game results.

[Demon trucker 1,800]

I think the Demons could get the same culture as the Swans. Because nobody respects us or expexts us to win.

People laugh when i say i am an MFC supporter.

Outside here we mean nothing. Sad but it is true.

let them laugh, it was not that lông ago that hawthron where no good, richmôd have not played finals since 2001, calton did not play final football for 8 seasons, essdon have not been that flash since 2001. eveyone gets laughed at, so let them laugh, remember carlton and richmon have both lost to GC, now thats something to laugh at, and they are two clubs with better culture then ours, i think we still have te foundation of a good team, it just needs time and a few things to come together.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Again we have reference to Culture which may be inappropriate. We have been presented with the Geelong, Collingwood, West Coast, Hawthorn, Adelaideeven North Melbourne "culture", I dont think they are all the same(?). Fitzroy had a culture even South Melbourne (The bloods)

So yes there is something I am just a little nervous about attributing the flag or ultimate success to "culture".

The flag will add something to the culture but all the above have also spent time at the bottom was this also solely the "culture"

A more important part of success is getting the right components, creating the right structures to achieve an identified outcome.

I have seen so many 5 year plans begin some part of the complex build only to abandoned after 3 years for a completely different direction

Perhaps the "culture" of persistence needs to be added to the culture of resilience that we already have. I recall hearing so often that supporting Melbourne was "character building". That is also part of "the culture".

Lets get "the Culture" into perspective and start to get some game results.

I think IF you look at the Shinboner Spirit, it's a thing the club was renowned for, for genersation Upon generation.

It isn't something of the players so much, but a mystique about an under funded battling Club forever struggling but punching above they're weight. Always taking on the bigger Foes. And not taking a backward step.

THIS, is something the people are attracted to, & ADOPT as the ethos. It becomes a 'Club Culture', separate from the players, but the expectations are layed on the players to follow.

It's the supporters who won't tolerate shiitting on the Culture.

Listen to the hungry supporters from other clubs who have high expectations. They give it to players who don't follow the Ethos.

IMO we have become accustomed to being passive. And by extension spoil our kids thru lavishing them with praise for passive performances.

That, and the fact that our kids are given games too young & immature.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I think the OP is spot on, we get a player who is a good small forward like Flash and try to turn him in to a midfielder, back flanker then back to the forward line again. We have a player like Morton who was doing ok as a mid then try to turn him in to a backman, tagger then who knows what.

I think our last two coaches were following their former coaches idea that every player should be able to play everywhere, we'll that doesn't always work. I understand that players should have a defensive side but that doesn't mean you have to rob them of their attacking nature as well.

I was told that Sellar was there to perform a role and as long as he did he'd remain on the list and I would imagine that all the players will have similar instructions, so I guess we will see next year, a more settled line up with players responsible for certain jobs each week.

[Deecisive 1,709]

Today was typical of the old saying a a champion team will beat a team of champions. The swans to their credit all had solid work ethics, hunting in packs, and backing each other up. Saw a stat of one player not sure which, 15 tackles. That is the type of side you dont want to play, something that perhaps we can aspire to in the future.

[Biffen 12,940]

Today was typical of the old saying a a champion team will beat a team of champions. The swans to their credit all had solid work ethics, hunting in packs, and backing each other up. Saw a stat of one player not sure which, 15 tackles. That is the type of side you dont want to play, something that perhaps we can aspire to in the future.

O'Keefe-The Norm Smith Medalist.

[Dr. Mubutu 815]

Dang. I was hoping this was going to be the token D&D thread.

[rolly 149]

Still have faith that petterd could be our gunston.

Easily one of the most frustrating players on the list because all know he COULD do it.

If he can get his shite together will be dangerous as a 3rd or 4th tall with howe

[IRW 1,386]

I think the OP is spot on, we get a player who is a good small forward like Flash and try to turn him in to a midfielder, back flanker then back to the forward line again. We have a player like Morton who was doing ok as a mid then try to turn him in to a backman, tagger then who knows what.

I think our last two coaches were following their former coaches idea that every player should be able to play everywhere, we'll that doesn't always work. I understand that players should have a defensive side but that doesn't mean you have to rob them of their attacking nature as well.

I was told that Sellar was there to perform a role and as long as he did he'd remain on the list and I would imagine that all the players will have similar instructions, so I guess we will see next year, a more settled line up with players responsible for certain jobs each week.

The mess the previous coaches made of Flash is a disgrace. Green to some extent as well.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul is a saying that comes to mind.

Good coaching is sometimes like fitting the jig saw puzzle together more than it is playing on the magnetic white board

[rjay 24,779]

I think IF you look at the Shinboner Spirit, it's a thing the club was renowned for, for genersation Upon generation.

It isn't something of the players so much, but a mystique about an under funded battling Club forever struggling but punching above they're weight. Always taking on the bigger Foes. And not taking a backward step.

THIS, is something the people are attracted to, & ADOPT as the ethos. It becomes a 'Club Culture', separate from the players, but the expectations are layed on the players to follow.

It's the supporters who won't tolerate shiitting on the Culture.

Listen to the hungry supporters from other clubs who have high expectations. They give it to players who don't follow the Ethos.

IMO we have become accustomed to being passive. And by extension spoil our kids thru lavishing them with praise for passive performances.

That, and the fact that our kids are given games too young & immature.

The shinboner spirit is a myth. North have been consistently thumped by sides above them on the ladder over the past few seasons. Their game against the pies last year was similar to our 186, it's just that they have been able to beat up on lesser opponents that has seen them up and about the 8.

If it ever did really exist the lights went out with Archer and even in his last seasons they copped some bad beatings.

[Guest José Mourinho]

I think the OP is spot on, we get a player who is a good small forward like Flash and try to turn him in to a midfielder, back flanker then back to the forward line again. We have a player like Morton who was doing ok as a mid then try to turn him in to a backman, tagger then who knows what.

I think our last two coaches were following their former coaches idea that every player should be able to play everywhere, we'll that doesn't always work. I understand that players should have a defensive side but that doesn't mean you have to rob them of their attacking nature as well.

I was told that Sellar was there to perform a role and as long as he did he'd remain on the list and I would imagine that all the players will have similar instructions, so I guess we will see next year, a more settled line up with players responsible for certain jobs each week.

Yes & no.

I think it's still important for some players to continue improving and adding other strings to their bow, but it serves no purpose pushing a player into a foreign position where he just continually flounders.

What this approach and the Sydney example gives me, is great hope that some of our role players are already hiding on our list but we don't even recognise it.

Guys like Lynden Dunn, who does have a half-decent skillset, and would probably blossom in a strong culture like that of Sydney, where his idea of being a 'tough guy' wouldn't be tolerated.

The culture is changing and severe list turnover will make the players brutally aware that this change will come quickly, with or without you.

The idea of talented kids coming into the club at this time and being exposed to this shifted attitude excites me.

Edited September 29, 2012 by José Mourinho

[rjay 24,779]

Yes & no.

I think it's still important for some players to continue improving and adding other strings to their bow, but it serves no purpose pushing a player into a foreign position where he just continually flounders.

What this approach and the Sydney example gives me, is great hope that some of our role players are already hiding on our list but we don't even recognise it.

Guys like Lynden Dunn, who does have a half-decent skillset, and would probably blossom in a strong culture like that of Sydney, where his idea of being a 'tough guy' wouldn't be tolerated.

The culture is changing and severe list turnover will make the players brutally aware that this change will come quickly, with or without you.

The idea of talented kids coming into the club at this time and being exposed to this shifted attitude excites me.

Me too Jose

[Dr. Gonzo 24,110]

Guys like Lynden Dunn, who does have a half-decent skillset, and would probably blossom in a strong culture like that of Sydney, where his idea of being a 'tough guy' wouldn't be tolerated.

This is a great point - he has the ability to play a role in a successful team but he has been allowed to get away with this rubbish for years now. Don't worry about trying to be "intimidating" or an "enforcer" it doesn't work in this day and age and is laughable when you can't back it up. Don't worry about playing for free kicks or intimidating the oppopsition, just worry about doing the team things, the one percenters and getting the footy.

Look at yesterday - the Swans copped the rough end of the stick with the umpires but did they complain? Did they change their attitude to the contest? No they just worried about winning the next contest and doing the disciplined team things. Meanwhile Jordan Lewis and Luke Hodge were out there looking for free kicks, particularly in the first quarter, rather than worrying about just playing football.

Edited September 30, 2012 by Dr. Gonzo

[Guest José Mourinho]

How? Because we've had a terribly soft and wayward club culture.

[La Dee-vina Comedia 16,664]

As well as culture, the swans player have the 'trust' in each other that Mick Malthouse referred to earlier in the year when he said Melbourne players didn't have it. That trust is a bit about culture but a lot about skill. Culture will have you wanting to believe; knowing that your teammate has the necessary skills will give you the confidence to do so. In short, fix both and don't just rely on one to fix the other.

[Sir Why You Little 36,862]

Agree concerning Lynden Dunn.

He has skills but has been thrown around everywhere.

Give him a set of job(s) to do & show some trust in him.

[dee-luded 2,959]

The shinboner spirit is a myth. North have been consistently thumped by sides above them on the ladder over the past few seasons. Their game against the pies last year was similar to our 186, it's just that they have been able to beat up on lesser opponents that has seen them up and about the 8.

If it ever did really exist the lights went out with Archer and even in his last seasons they copped some bad beatings.

Past few seasons, so you don't think the clubs culture can have somer down periods. Of course it can. But when tested, & attacked in the Media in the middle of this year, they all gathered & fought back, with the spirit they're renowned for. Its no Myth.

They turned things around thru that will & climbed up the ladder.

[45HG 1,539]

The Kangaroos have lost 8 of their last 10 finals by an average of 78 points.

They did well to get to the finals in many of those cases - but that record stands for itself.

[dee-luded 2,959]

The Kangaroos have lost 8 of their last 10 finals by an average of 78 points.

They did well to get to the finals in many of those cases - but that record stands for itself.

Why don't you just admit it & get over it, you don't believe in Culture. It's not a crime.

[binman 42,422]

Agree concerning Lynden Dunn.

He has skills but has been thrown around everywhere.

Give him a set of job(s) to do & show some trust in him.

I think they have found him his role. He'll stay down back from now on.

[45HG 1,539]

Why don't you just admit it & get over it, you don't believe in Culture. It's not a crime.

Strange, strange post.

Of course I believe in culture. Yesterday's game probably proves the importance of culture more than any other example.

Indeed, if you bothered to read the thread that you've just posted in you'd see that I believe culture is a great determiner for a club's success.

What I don't agree with is attaching has-been 90s hash-tags that are no longer applicable to a team (possibly never have been).

Culture is a fluent, malleable entity that is impacted on and influenced by a great degree of elements. I believe it can change reasonably quickly - be that in a positive or negative way.

[Sir Why You Little 36,862]

I think they have found him his role. He'll stay down back from now on.

i hope so. I like Dunny. He has never had a settled crack.

Yes he drives me to drink sometimes but i still believe he has something.