Cloke and Collingwood - to part or not to part?

[rpfc 27,453]

Just blind I guess stuie.

Mods combine this thread please.

I messed up

It's on the drafting board.

[beelzebub 22,225]

Christ I hope he goes to the Blues for an inflated amount.

Please Melbourne Dont sign this bloje.

[Arrow 1,257]

These compensation picks for teams losing players to FA is the AFL adding currency out of nothing.

I hope Bates manager scores him a good enough contract to get us a late 2nd round pick.

We should be as active as possible in FA to get our share of this extra currency the AFL is pumping into the system.

My understanding is you only recieve compensation picks if the player leaves when a restricted free agent. Once he is unrestricted there is no compensation!

[Wells 11 4,706]

I say go for it. He'd be more than just a full forward. He'd relay that we mean business as a club, he'd be both an awesome marketing tool ( more members) and a big physical precense on the field we currently miss. He'd also bring a success laden attitude to the players around him. Given he wont cost draft picks its perfect.

But , aside from Neeld, why would he choose us? Think Darwin instead of USA preseason, think jones and Mckenzie rather than pendlebury and Beams kicking to you, think our grand final being a home and away game against his old club. IF we could do it it would be huge but its a massive if.......

It pisses me off but If I was a blues fan Id be feeling pretty confident....

[dee-luded 2,958]

Quite an aggressive stance from Cloke senior hey ? You'd reckon that Eddie will find a way to keep Travis - they can't afford to lose a player of his ilk . But ...........money talks . I see our Demons were mentioned again in the article . This whole thing is just not going away for the Pies . Good . Great !

Maybe seniore' Cloke has been offered an assistant role @ Princes Park. And a pad insulated with cleanly laundered recycled paper.

[dee-luded 2,958]

That's a lot of money we are allegedly offering.

Hope he's worth it, because what we need most is experienced, quality MIDFIELDERS.

Anyone for Sewell, Chappy, Goddard or Montagna? Imagine if we picked up 2 or 3 of these..... *drools down chin*

Anyone for Sewell, Chappy, Goddard or Montagna?

[Jaded No More 57,827]

I love all these "what about Clark" comments.

We are allowed to have more than 1 good player. I hear it's legal.

We are crazy if we don't offer him everything we can.

The club will only pay him what they think we can afford going forward. If that's enough to get him across the line, then happy [censored] days.

You don't say no to a quality CHF!

[monoccular 16,066]

I am still unsure if he is worth the amount, and more so the length, being discussed, but even if he eventually stays, or gets bribed to go elsewhere by fifty pieces of cardboard as a side deal, if this manages to destabilize Collingwood - like the Neeld deal did last year - then it is all worth while

Edited July 24, 2012 by monoccular

[beelzebub 22,225]

I love all these "what about Clark" comments.

We are allowed to have more than 1 good player. I hear it's legal.

We are crazy if we don't offer him everything we can.

The club will only pay him what they think we can afford going forward. If that's enough to get him across the line, then happy [censored] days.

You don't say no to a quality CHF!

its nothing to do with whetherh Clark is allowed a play buddy. Its called priority. Another big forward whose only role is that is NOT our priority.. Creating an engine that can power a team and act like a valve by pushing th eball forward and resisting it in return lowering the pressure on an all too often over run defence IS.

How can people NOT see its the MIDFIELD we spend miney on...not some obsession with collecting forwards. We have forwards. We have NO real midfield to speak of...not a complete workign replenishable one.

How hard can this bloody be

[Ron Burgundy 8,584]

The good thing about having a complete dearth of really good senior players is that we have loads of room in the cap to front load such contracts.

You can either get great players in one of two ways: 1. recruit them as kids and develop them effectively (which we haven't done in recent years), or 2. attract established players from other clubs.

To do the latter, you either need to be a great club in a premiership window (which we are not at the moment), or you have to offer them a very, very fat contract.

I say get him.

And that means offering him a very fat, front loaded contract.

With effective recruiting THIS draft period, I reckon we can transform this list quicker than some people think.

Clark and Cloke with an effective engine room is an exciting thought.

[olisik 4,060]

its nothing to do with whetherh Clark is allowed a play buddy. Its called priority. Another big forward whose only role is that is NOT our priority.. Creating an engine that can power a team and act like a valve by pushing th eball forward and resisting it in return lowering the pressure on an all too often over run defence IS.

How can people NOT see its the MIDFIELD we spend miney on...not some obsession with collecting forwards. We have forwards. We have NO real midfield to speak of...not a complete workign replenishable one.

How hard can this bloody be

Simple, no free agent mids worth the coin. We draft them. Unless u know of any mids worth 1.1m a yr thats a free agent?

[Range Rover 1,935]

its nothing to do with whetherh Clark is allowed a play buddy. Its called priority. Another big forward whose only role is that is NOT our priority.. Creating an engine that can power a team and act like a valve by pushing th eball forward and resisting it in return lowering the pressure on an all too often over run defence IS.

How can people NOT see its the MIDFIELD we spend miney on...not some obsession with collecting forwards. We have forwards. We have NO real midfield to speak of...not a complete workign replenishable one.

How hard can this bloody be

Why can't we have both BB?

If it's possible to somehow a structure a situation where we net say ... Cloke, Viney, Caddy and picks 3 and 4 in the draft ... shouldn't we have a crack?

Why limit it to just the midfield (which I agree is the priority)?

[beelzebub 22,225]

You make a shopping list and then change your priorities simply because theyre giving away something else in aisle 4...so to speak , though Cloke isnt by anymeans being given away. It matters not whether anyone is a f'n free agent or not...you go after what you NEED, not what looks shiny shiny sparkly etc.

Too many folk are gettting caught up with the frenzy that FA is supposedly presenting. Its just ANOTHER avenue to procurement. My god how onb earth did clubs swap and trade prior ??. Just because someones a FA doesnt mean they are actually going anywhere, just that they now have leverage.

People need to lift their vision. Sort out what we need...and find ways to get it. Amazingly we found a way to land Clark when he was apparently about to set up shop in freo...amazing !!

[beelzebub 22,225]

Why can't we have both BB?

If it's possible to somehow a structure a situation where we net say ... Cloke, Viney, Caddy and picks 3 and 4 in the draft ... shouldn't we have a crack?

Why limit it to just the midfield (which I agree is the priority)?

RR we probably have more money to spend than many a club his EOS but would you really want to lob it all at one bloke ?

By all means add to the forward line, but fix the engine room first otherwise you have very limited feed for these shiny new toys up front.

Clark can take the mantel as the major draw of opponents defence. Get another to work as understudy. We still very likely have th elikes of Jurrah to return, We have Howe who will likely stay forward for at least another season. We actually need a smaller crumbin gun more than another big bloke.

Throw megabucks at some underperforming "panacea for all ills " and theres little left to fund all the other gaps...and we have lots

edit:

was about to put this elsewhere but is appropriate here possibly.

AN element to all this is something many seemingly are overloooking in a race to secure goals via some extra monolith is just how many goals are kicked by quality midfields. No point having shiny wheels and slick tyres if ya donk is done like a dogs dinner. You migh tlook nice but youre going nowhere fast

Edited July 24, 2012 by belzebub59

[Range Rover 1,935]

RR we probably have more money to spend than many a club his EOS but would you really want to lob it all at one bloke ?

By all means add to the forward line, but fix the engine room first otherwise you have very limited feed for these shiny new toys up front.

Clark can take the mantel as the major draw of opponents defence. Get another to work as understudy. We still very likely have th elikes of Jurrah to return, We have Howe who will likely stay forward for at least another season. We actually need a smaller crumbin gun more than another big bloke.

Throw megabucks at some underperforming "panacea for all ills " and theres little left to fund all the other gaps...and we have lots

edit:

was about to put this elsewhere but is appropriate here possibly.

AN element to all this is something many seemingly are overloooking in a race to secure goals via some extra monolith is just how many goals are kicked by quality midfields. No point having shiny wheels and slick tyres if ya donk is done like a dogs dinner. You migh tlook nice but youre going nowhere fast

RR we probably have more money to spend than many a club his EOS but would you really want to lob it all at one bloke ?

By all means add to the forward line, but fix the engine room first otherwise you have very limited feed for these shiny new toys up front.

Clark can take the mantel as the major draw of opponents defence. Get another to work as understudy. We still very likely have th elikes of Jurrah to return, We have Howe who will likely stay forward for at least another season. We actually need a smaller crumbin gun more than another big bloke.

Throw megabucks at some underperforming "panacea for all ills " and theres little left to fund all the other gaps...and we have lots

edit:

was about to put this elsewhere but is appropriate here possibly.

AN element to all this is something many seemingly are overloooking in a race to secure goals via some extra monolith is just how many goals are kicked by quality midfields. No point having shiny wheels and slick tyres if ya donk is done like a dogs dinner. You migh tlook nice but youre going nowhere fast

If you add two shiny new mids (picks 3 and 4) from the superdraft, an up and coming gun like Caddy and the brick wall with eyes in Jack Viney to your midfield stocks .... I would've thought that'll be a major fillip to the engine room?

Then chuck Trav Cloke down there with Clarky and suddenly you're open for business.

[beelzebub 22,225]

If you add two shiny new mids (picks 3 and 4) from the superdraft, an up and coming gun like Caddy and the brick wall with eyes in Jack Viney to your midfield stocks .... I would've thought that'll be a major fillip to the engine room?

Then chuck Trav Cloke down there with Clarky and suddenly you're open for business.

nice that you quoted me twice...lol...serves to emphasise ? lol

I see a major element to all this to be timing. even with Viney..and possibly some shiney draft picked mids, maybe even a stolen one from elsewhwere it will take this lot a good season/2 to gel to the point of being a real weapon. Why pay overs for some bloke to set up his picnic table and wait. And th eway I see it is if you spend 1 very large one per year for such picnicking monolith that takes away the ability to shop for 2-3 other parts of the gap infested team-board.

Its about balance. Creating a champion team not a team with a champ ( or chump ) or two. This is where I see Neelds moneyball ideas coming to play. creating a continuity in the level of the team that just works.

Other than Viney who will come to play, and any other already in the sytem type players , draft picks will take the proverbial 25-50 to impact. So we need to get a mid or two that are ready to go. Yes I feel we will investigate the FA angle but i sense good old fashioned horse trading come trade week will yield more.

Theres no silver bulletlikely and hes certainly not Cloke.

[furious d 447]

nice that you quoted me twice...lol...serves to emphasise ? lol

I see a major element to all this to be timing. even with Viney..and possibly some shiney draft picked mids, maybe even a stolen one from elsewhwere it will take this lot a good season/2 to gel to the point of being a real weapon. Why pay overs for some bloke to set up his picnic table and wait. And th eway I see it is if you spend 1 very large one per year for such picnicking monolith that takes away the ability to shop for 2-3 other parts of the gap infested team-board.

Its about balance. Creating a champion team not a team with a champ ( or chump ) or two. This is where I see Neelds moneyball ideas coming to play. creating a continuity in the level of the team that just works.

Other than Viney who will come to play, and any other already in the sytem type players , draft picks will take the proverbial 25-50 to impact. So we need to get a mid or two that are ready to go. Yes I feel we will investigate the FA angle but i sense good old fashioned horse trading come trade week will yield more.

Theres no silver bulletlikely and hes certainly not Cloke.

The horse trading during trade week will cost a lot more than Cloke.

I don't think the salary cap is an issue for us, we can afford the dollars and may even need to spend to make the minimum payments. Trading will cost us picks or players and they are far more valuable than a heap of unused cap space

[Range Rover 1,935]

nice that you quoted me twice...lol...serves to emphasise ? lol

I see a major element to all this to be timing. even with Viney..and possibly some shiney draft picked mids, maybe even a stolen one from elsewhwere it will take this lot a good season/2 to gel to the point of being a real weapon. Why pay overs for some bloke to set up his picnic table and wait. And th eway I see it is if you spend 1 very large one per year for such picnicking monolith that takes away the ability to shop for 2-3 other parts of the gap infested team-board.

Its about balance. Creating a champion team not a team with a champ ( or chump ) or two. This is where I see Neelds moneyball ideas coming to play. creating a continuity in the level of the team that just works.

Other than Viney who will come to play, and any other already in the sytem type players , draft picks will take the proverbial 25-50 to impact. So we need to get a mid or two that are ready to go. Yes I feel we will investigate the FA angle but i sense good old fashioned horse trading come trade week will yield more.

Theres no silver bulletlikely and hes certainly not Cloke.

I think you make a good point re the timing. But I would counter that sometimes you've just go to go with the good plan today rather than the better plan tomorrow. Trying to calculate 'development' so that everything converges in some magically timed winning formula can be frought with danger.

If I was Neeld, I would be thinking that first and foremost I need wins next season or I could quite conceivably find myself on thin ice. As discussed elsewhere the natives will be getting restless if we are 2-9 heading into the second half of 2013. Cloke is a game changer in this regard if it means a few more wins over the next 18 months to ease the pressure.

The MFC cannot afford to be rooted to the bottom of the ladder for the next two years.

[beelzebub 22,225]

Kepp in mind the cap can be used as a fluid vehicle for paying players. Good coporate fiscal manouvering would suggest maybe we utilsie any possibiility of cap gap to briing forward some payments to some existing contracted players and free up space ( monetarily ) for when we have to pay more as they get better etc. Thats more an aside than anything, just showing theres more to it than just spending the money because its there.

Somehow a mentality has creeped into the football following fraternity ( and yo sistas too ) that somehow you have picks and such and that you somehow manage togain players etc without actually using them. Thats what they are for. To improve your list. Whether thats by direct picking or horse trading, thats their value.

I feel we are guilty of over complicating a situation. We are a team that has gaping holes . We need to move on this quickly in order to capitalise on the talent and body clocks already in motion. We cant keep getting kids that might...we need to get some players that can, and we KNOW they can. At some poinnt you have to give up your lollies. Picks simply provide for players. Its not some card collecting game.

We have X we need Y. Our currency is a combination of...a ) anyplayers that might hold courrt elsewhere that we can live without or replace via another avenue. b ) picks c ) and of course good old MONEY.

The result we wish is a fully functional and ultra competitive team.....not the best collection of kids, cards, or cash.

[Undeeterred 2,864]

Very interesting that there is deafening silence on our out-of-contract list.

Surely we are waiting to see how much we have to give Cloke before we get moving on that.

Given we have to pay 90-something % of the salary cap, and we'd have to pay most of our players overs to get there, why not front load the cr@p out of Cloke's contract, and sign all the rest of our muppets (with a few apologies eg Jones) to something more like what they are worth?

With Clark and Cloke front-loaded, there will be plenty of room in 3-4 years to sign up the quality mids we will draft this year to the wages they will hopefully deserve by then.

I just can't see how this could be a bad idea.

[Undeeterred 2,864]

I think you make a good point re the timing. But I would counter that sometimes you've just go to go with the good plan today rather than the better plan tomorrow. Trying to calculate 'development' so that everything converges in some magically timed winning formula can be frought with danger.

Completely agree. Much better to get a proven star than retain heaps of 'quality' picks and hope they turn into 'quality' players.

Been there, done that.

[olisik 4,060]

Kepp in mind the cap can be used as a fluid vehicle for paying players. Good coporate fiscal manouvering would suggest maybe we utilsie any possibiility of cap gap to briing forward some payments to some existing contracted players and free up space ( monetarily ) for when we have to pay more as they get better etc. Thats more an aside than anything, just showing theres more to it than just spending the money because its there.

Somehow a mentality has creeped into the football following fraternity ( and yo sistas too ) that somehow you have picks and such and that you somehow manage togain players etc without actually using them. Thats what they are for. To improve your list. Whether thats by direct picking or horse trading, thats their value.

I feel we are guilty of over complicating a situation. We are a team that has gaping holes . We need to move on this quickly in order to capitalise on the talent and body clocks already in motion. We cant keep getting kids that might...we need to get some players that can, and we KNOW they can. At some poinnt you have to give up your lollies. Picks simply provide for players. Its not some card collecting game.

We have X we need Y. Our currency is a combination of...a ) anyplayers that might hold courrt elsewhere that we can live without or replace via another avenue. b ) picks c ) and of course good old MONEY.

The result we wish is a fully functional and ultra competitive team.....not the best collection of kids, cards, or cash.

Can you suggest a player we can acquire then for the coin we have thats a mid?

Would you rather Cloke, pick 3, 4, 12 and Viney (3- 4 mids) = Tall forward + 3 - 4 mids.

Or

Boak, pick 3, 12 and Viney ( 3 - 4 mids)

We end up with more getting a Free agent. I am sure if Dane Swan or Ablett was a F/A we would be throwing the coin at them instead but unfortunately there are no A grade mids in F/A and there is an abudance of them in the draft.

You would be foolish to think that our forward line doesn't need propping up.

and if we trade for a Boak why would we even want to give him the big coin anyway, we traded for him so he is forced to come to us or go in the PSD. Big coin is not needed for trading!

Edited July 25, 2012 by olisik

[Still Waiting 94]

Why would Cloke senior be partaking of sustenance with a person of great interest to the Dees? Did this happen last Thursday???????

Edited July 25, 2012 by Still Waiting

[beelzebub 22,225]

In simple terms ...Along with even the same set of drafts picks possible , Boak( or Boak type ) will impact the setup of out team far more than Cloke.

No one can comment upon who is actually avail under trade week. We only know the FA's as theyre there for all to see.

But in playing your money or the box game Osilik I would rather pick B... Boak, pick 3, 12 and Viney ( 3 - 4 mids)

its not about having the best change left over or greatest collection of drafts etc. Its about having the best abled team, thats all.

And thats "Team"...not disconnnected amalgamtion of known names.

[beelzebub 22,225]

Completely agree. Much better to get a proven star than retain heaps of 'quality' picks and hope they turn into 'quality' players.

Been there, done that.

yep and where are we... back at square 1, Brilliant !!

so maybe we try the other way... get people who can play. , not ones that possibly might or maybe one day, just not a day real soon.