Toumpas v Stringer v Wines

[GRUN DEE 69]

All I want is GRUNDY for XMAS!

Mids will follow...

Viney lock at Pick 21!

Edited July 23, 2012 by jungle dee

[Dee1987 277]

I don't want a ruckman at pick 3 or 4 mids with those picks pick 12 viney

[GRUN DEE 69]

I don't want a ruckman at pick 3 or 4 mids with those picks pick 12 viney

Viney is Pick 3 or 21! Nothing else...

He will be Pick 21!

[Lord Travis 10,763]

We need to draft Toumpas for some outside skill, pace, and leadership. We need to draft another inside midfielder. Where we take Viney will determine whether we get Wines or the like as well as Viney.

Toumpas should be our main target IMO. We get enough ball, but our spread, skills and decision making are poor. He ticks all the boxes and would suit our list very well.

[Matt Demon 1,482]

My dream draft

Toumpas

Grundy

Garlett

Viney

[rpfc 28,779]

RPFC think I made it pretty clear I want Midfielders and Rucks who I said I prefer were all taken laet in draft or rookie elevations

Just to clarify

MIDS with Pick 3 & 4, rucks late picks or rookie/PSD

I agree. Hence the 'yes.'

[furious d 472]

The phantom drafts are where they think they'll be taken. Guessing what will transpire re bluff & bravado with The Giants & Suns Re the Ambit bid on Viney.

'Knightmare' & 'Chris', from Big Footy, put down their observations & thoughts on each player & have been doing so for many a Year.

I'll say it again, he's not as good with his disposals &/or decision making as the likes of Toumpas re kicking, finding targets, or Wines re inside work & finding the right targets.

Whitfield with his Gut Run & Elite kicking from both sides & decision making, although is an outside player at this point can negotiate traffic well.

O'Rourke & Vlastuin are just as hard as Viney & match him as well with disposals & decision making.

Then there's Stringer who has the inside game winning the hard ball + the outside work & marking,, & a Forward to boot.

Viney is a great little player, but hes around 8 to 12.

I'd say Plowman would be rated higher & I think he'll go to the Doggies with one of they're early picks. Either Plowman or Stringer to doggies.

AFL recruiters will be disappointed to know they've been wasting their time all these years. All they need to do is read bigfooty, one or two mocks should suffice. Then they'll have the unquestioned knowledge of dee-luded.

You have no clue

[dee-luded 2,959]

AFL recruiters will be disappointed to know they've been wasting their time all these years. All they need to do is read bigfooty, one or two mocks should suffice. Then they'll have the unquestioned knowledge of dee-luded.

You have no clue

Sorry furious, I didn't realise You were a Melbourne recruiter.

I thought we were talking about our Opinions on the matter & where we thought the players should fit.

[furious d 472]

Sorry furious, I didn't realise You were a Melbourne recruiter.

I thought we were talking about our Opinions on the matter & where we thought the players should fit.

No, I was pointing out that you're not a recruiter. Viney "ranked" 8-12 is your opinion, and your opinion, like mine, is meaningless.

[dee-luded 2,959]

No, I was pointing out that you're not a recruiter. Viney "ranked" 8-12 is your opinion, and your opinion, like mine, is meaningless.

Exactly, you just realised? You didn't need to point that out. I already know that, unless your just realising yourself, that were both stating opinions.

Mine is that Viney isn't the very best fit for us ahead of Toumpas, Whitfield, Wines, & possibly Stringer & Mayes as well.

And opinions aren't meaningless at all. Only less valued if the opinion is based on nothing.

My opinion is based on studying our needs & whats on offer @ the top of the U-18's tree. We Need Class ball handlers who can pinpoint targets & make great decisions, & have a bit of pace.

-------------------------

We should by rights, as per how other F/S drafts have gone, pay slightly unders for him.... not overs.

We shouldn't be screwed by Sheedy or Blight.

This Draft is Crucial for our immediate survival & prosperity & having the Giants screw us again or The Suns do likewise, is just wrong.

I would not take it & if they nominate him, I'd make them take him.

I would then do to them, what Sheedy did to us with $cully.

[furious d 472]

Exactly, you just realised? You didn't need to point that out. I already know that, unless your just realising yourself, that were both stating opinions.

Mine is that Viney isn't the very best fit for us ahead of Toumpas, Whitfield, Wines, & possibly Stringer & Mayes as well.

And opinions aren't meaningless at all. Only less valued if the opinion is based on nothing.

My opinion is based on studying our needs & whats on offer @ the top of the U-18's tree. We Need Class ball handlers who can pinpoint targets & make great decisions, & have a bit of pace.

-------------------------

We should by rights, as per how other F/S drafts have gone, pay slightly unders for him.... not overs.

We shouldn't be screwed by Sheedy or Blight.

This Draft is Crucial for our immediate survival & prosperity & having the Giants screw us again or The Suns do likewise, is just wrong.

I would not take it & if they nominate him, I'd make them take him.

I would then do to them, what Sheedy did to us with $cully.

Last page you claimed Viney was ranked 10th in the draft. I asked you "by who?"

You gave some long winded answer with quotes from bigfooty. Would have saved a lot of time if you had just said me.

[Hazyshadeofgrinter 80]

Last page you claimed Viney was ranked 10th in the draft. I asked you "by who?"

You gave some long winded answer with quotes from bigfooty. Would have saved a lot of time if you had just said me.

Out of interest, do you subject the claims that Viney is ranked in the top 3 to the same level of skepticism?

I see this written on here quite a lot but as far as I can tell, the first mention of it on Demonland was in a post which appeared to base this assertion on a bigfooty phantom draft ranking which may or may not have taken into account the father/son situation. Since then it seems to have been repeated a lot and there seems to be a touch of the "drinking our own bathwater" to my eye at least.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't put Viney in the top 3, but this is based on armchair scouting and I certainly don't pretend to be an expert. This also means that I wouldn't take Viney if he is nominated by another club with a top 2 pick but that's another argument.

[furious d 472]

Out of interest, do you subject the claims that Viney is ranked in the top 3 to the same level of skepticism?

I see this written on here quite a lot but as far as I can tell, the first mention of it on Demonland was in a post which appeared to base this assertion on a bigfooty phantom draft ranking which may or may not have taken into account the father/son situation. Since then it seems to have been repeated a lot and there seems to be a touch of the "drinking our own bathwater" to my eye at least.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't put Viney in the top 3, but this is based on armchair scouting and I certainly don't pretend to be an expert. This also means that I wouldn't take Viney if he is nominated by another club with a top 2 pick but that's another argument.

I'm no expert either Hazy, but I don't think he can be rated yet.

It's still a long way till draft day and there doesn't appear to be any standouts behind Whitfield. There is no consensus among the supposed experts. Mayes, O'Rourke, Grundy, Toumpas and Viney have all been mentioned as possible #2 picks and all but Grundy have been predicted by others to be late top 10 or worse. It seems to be a pretty even bunch behind Whitfield and there's still plenty of footy to be played, including finals, then draft camp.

I think VFL finals will have a big say in Jack's perceived value at the draft. If he tears it up against men in the VFL finals series then Gold Coast may see him as a worthy second pick and so might the bigfooty consensus. In the end though, any kids real value at the draft is only known when his name is called out.

[ChaserJ 5,157]

I'm not sure Jack will be exposed all that much in the second half of the season, meaning we'll be left to speculate on the merits or otherwise of having to bid a high pick on him.

What impressed me about Jack in the champs was the number of times he hit the pack at pace and ended up sprinting away, winning the clearance. Not too many other inside mids were doing that in the nationals, and I definitely think we could use a clearance winner with some pace on the inside. I think he's being undervalued by a few posters.

His kicking and decision making appeared to be of a high enough standard, and he had sufficient pace to burst from packs. All of this was on managed time and interrupted preparation. I really hope that he'll get to the 2nd round, but very comfortable if we have to spend a high pick. My dream scenario has us doing a deal with GWS to get Jack Martin and negiotating a no f/s bid from them.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I'm no expert either Hazy, but I don't think he can be rated yet.

It's still a long way till draft day and there doesn't appear to be any standouts behind Whitfield. There is no consensus among the supposed experts. Mayes, O'Rourke, Grundy, Toumpas and Viney have all been mentioned as possible #2 picks and all but Grundy have been predicted by others to be late top 10 or worse. It seems to be a pretty even bunch behind Whitfield and there's still plenty of footy to be played, including finals, then draft camp.

I think VFL finals will have a big say in Jack's perceived value at the draft. If he tears it up against men in the VFL finals series then Gold Coast may see him as a worthy second pick and so might the bigfooty consensus. In the end though, any kids real value at the draft is only known when his name is called out.

You sound like your a relative of the Vineys, or your doing the clubs spruiking, softening us for the Viney name being called @ Pick 3...

We don't need hard in/unders prior,,,, to getting the Class midfielders we so desperately need. We need rugged inside players with elite kicking & decision making, & run. a bit of size would go a long way as well...

Kicking, Speed, & Run in our midfielders are the A Class we need . JV isn't in that bracket.. he'd be in the (A-), or (B+) bracket.

To me the top echelon seems to be > Whitfield, Daniher, Grundy, Toumpas, Wines, with a question mark over Stringer with injury... Then players like Plowman, Viney, O'Rourke, Mayes, Garlett, Vlastuin, Simpson, Kennedy, Colquhoun...

With Inside players with run & kicking > Whitfield, Toumpas, Mayes, Stringer, Garlett, Simpson, Kennedy.

My best take on hard inside ball winners > Wines,, & Viney, Stringer, O'Rourke, Vlastuin.

[dee-luded 2,959]

I'm not sure Jack will be exposed all that much in the second half of the season, meaning we'll be left to speculate on the merits or otherwise of having to bid a high pick on him.

What impressed me about Jack in the champs was the number of times he hit the pack at pace and ended up sprinting away, winning the clearance. Not too many other inside mids were doing that in the nationals, and I definitely think we could use a clearance winner with some pace on the inside. I think he's being undervalued by a few posters.

His kicking and decision making appeared to be of a high enough standard, and he had sufficient pace to burst from packs. All of this was on managed time and interrupted preparation. I really hope that he'll get to the 2nd round, but very comfortable if we have to spend a high pick. My dream scenario has us doing a deal with GWS to get Jack Martin and negiotating a no f/s bid from them.

This is the last season of GWS U-17 bidding if i'm not mistaken, & I expect some strong bidding. Maybe more than last year.

If so, the bidding may be 2 compo picks for a Martin, or 2 for a Hogan.

I don't want to spend more than one pick per set of arms & legs attached to one AFL talented young player...

We have too many spots to fill, to go giving away 2 for one.

[Jordie_tackles 354]

Viney isnt in the top 2 players in this draft, it is Whitfield and grundy. this is close to fact i think.

So the definate risk is to GC and GWS that they are bidding for someone who is not valued at their pick for starters and who will only be CONSIDERED at picks 3-7 or so possible nowhere near pick 2 depending on O'rourke, Toumpas, Stringer, Mayes, Garlett and even Wines ends to the season

this is just such a big gap....

[ChaserJ 5,157]

I would have thought one of our high picks would do it. GWS, you can have pick 3, but there's only one way you can get it. Happy to give it up and take Viney in 2nd round. If Martin was eligible for the 2012 draft, he'd be top 3 in my opinion.

Only team that could trump us at this stage is GC, and I've read that they could well trade pick 2 to GWS to get into the mini draft with an intial eye on Hogan.

Edited July 24, 2012 by ChaserJ

[dee-luded 2,959]

I would have thought one of our high picks would do it. GWS, you can have pick 3, but there's only one way you can get it. Happy to give it up and take Viney in 2nd round. If Martin was eligible for the 2012 draft, he'd be top 3 in my opinion.

Only team that could trump us at this stage is GC, and I've read that they could well trade pick 2 to GWS to get into the mini draft with an intial eye on Hogan.

What did O'Meara & Crouch cost the Suns & Crows last year in the GWS U-17's mini draft?

[ChaserJ 5,157]

What did O'Meara & Crouch cost the Suns & Crows last year in the GWS U-17's mini draft?

GC trumped us with pick 4 for O'Meara, Crows sent pick 10 & their Phil Davis compensation pick to GWS for Brad Crouch.

[dee-luded 2,959]

GC trumped us with pick 4 for O'Meara, Crows sent pick 10 & their Phil Davis compensation pick to GWS for Brad Crouch.

Ohha, is that all. I thought it was more. How quick you forget.

[Jesse Christ 2,884]

We really need to lose to GC and have them beat GWS to be in with a chance of Viney 2nd round.

The sad thing is it could actually happen!

[olisik 4,060]

If gc are contemplating trading there first pick for an u17 then they wont use it to bid on viney.

[cowboy_from_hell 2,390]

If gc are contemplating trading there first pick for an u17 then they wont use it to bid on viney.

With O'mera coming into the GC squad next year you would think they don't need Viney as much as key position players in the draft . They might go for Hogan as a under 17.

[Hannibal 5,814]

We don't need hard in/unders prior,,,, to getting the Class midfielders we so desperately need. We need rugged inside players with elite kicking & decision making, & run. a bit of size would go a long way as well...

Kicking, Speed, & Run in our midfielders are the A Class we need . JV isn't in that bracket.. he'd be in the (A-), or (B+) bracket.

To me the top echelon seems to be > Whitfield, Daniher, Grundy, Toumpas, Wines, with a question mark over Stringer with injury... Then players like Plowman, Viney, O'Rourke, Mayes, Garlett, Vlastuin, Simpson, Kennedy, Colquhoun...

My best take on hard inside ball winners > Wines,, & Viney, Stringer, O'Rourke, Vlastuin.

Viney and Wines played together up in the Echuca area when they were kids and Wines speaks in awe of Viney. I don't think I've seen or heard one expert put Wines ahead of Viney and usually I read that Viney is the best inside mid in the draft. In fact, I've read widely and haven't yet read where he isn't. I'm not sure why you have a different take. Also, Viney's speed is very good, especilally breaking away from a stoppage. His kicking isn't elite in it's penetration, but he hits targets with regularity and is far better than Scully.

I think the general consensus is that Viney would slot somewhere into the 5-15 range, so I completely understand why some supporters wouldn't want to give up pick 3, but for the leadership and culture he'd bring and the class he'd give as an inside mid I would - even though I don't think we'll have to. Within 12 months he'd be our best inside mid and give us quality clearances.

But this leads me to another point. Who are presently the best players at most of the better clubs ? At Essendon it's an inside mid in Watson. At Collingwood it's Swan and Pendlebury, both start in the centre square and are inside mids. At Hawthorn it's Franklin, Rioli, Hodge and Mitchell. Mitchell and Sewell are arguably their most important players at the moment, as they're the engine room that gets them going. Both are inside mids and Mitchell is expected to poll well in the Brownlow. The Swans best players along with Goodes are their inside mids in Jack, Kennedy, McVeigh and Bolton. At Carlton it's Judd and Murphy. Both inside mids with the latter having developed it in more recent times. At the Saints it's Reiwoldt and Hayes, the latter a terrific inside mid. Adelaides best player is their best inside mid in Scotty Thompson. The Dogs aren't a top team, but their best player is their best inside mid in Boyd. Richmond's best player is their best inside mid in Cotchin. Do you see a pattern emerging as to some of the most valuable players in the league ? It seems to be quality key forwards, or A grade inside mids.

Conclusion ? I agree that we're desperate for pace. I agree that we're desperate for outside class. But I also know that we're desperate for an A grade inside mid. I think too many are dismissing the value of inside mids and the value of the best inside mid in this draft. And it's not like they grow on trees. There are plenty of inside mids at our club and every club, but there's not many that are A grade.

Players like Redden, Beams, Fyfe, Sidebottom, Shuey, Hannebery, etc weren't drafted in the top 10 in their respective years, but where would they go with the benefit of hindsight ?

Edited July 25, 2012 by Ben-Hur