Recruiting or Development.

[Redleg 40,925]

Given the fact that many "experts" out there are now describing our list as poor, not that I necessarily agree, is it the result of poor recruiting, poor development or a combination of both?

Many players seem to kick on quickly at other clubs while many of our high picks seem to stagnate. Again let me say when I give a few examples I am not writing off these players. We took Watts and Hurley who went later is a strongly built star of his club. Like wise Melksham is a developed mid while our higher pick of a couple of years earlier Morton is playing at Casey with the same build and development as when he came to the club. Cook our first pick of 2010 seems a long way off though so many of his year are now regulars. Blease also seems to have gone backwards and I am not sure that Bennell has developed above his natural talent he had when selected.

I know recruiting is not an absolute science but have we failed to get the best at our selections or have we failed to develop our players?.

Something is clearly or has been clearly wrong in the past at the MFC.

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,602]

Cale Morton should have been given the arse. Just like Brad Miller and Travis Johnstone we just keep players on our list because we want to believe they will improve, but they often dont seem to.

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

It has got to be both areas.

We will be very busy at this years trade table i believe. Players have this season to show their worth.

[Arsene Wenger 72]

I say development and impatience.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the choices we've made, but they haven't been developed well, and in the main supporter's expectations have been unrealistic about how long it should take for this development.

There's nothing that makes our choices inferior to others, bar the usual later choices that turn into guns from nowhere.

Longmire discussed in the papers how the image of Fyfe in a swans jumper haunts him, since they planned to select him with their next pick after Rohan and Jetta.

They were sure he'd still be there, but the Dockers snatched him at 20.

The Swans ended up using their next pick on Sam Reid at 38.

There have also been articles where Mark Harvey has expressed absolute shock at how quickly and how well Fyfe had come on.

So, as much as "we should have picked him", no one else seemed to know he'd be such a gun, even those teams that clearly rated him.

Also a question has to be asked about what we are trying to achieve with our choices?

Wins now? or a premiership team in a couple of years?

I know these 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, but they're not mutually inclusive either.

Anyway, I've been surprised by some of the insight from Cameron Mooney at times when on the radio, and this morning I heard him discussing Melbourne's list briefly.

He said from playing against us for the last few years, his opinion is that we have kids who clearly have talent, but either they haven't been developed well, or they've been developed in the wrong way, and told to focus on the wrong things.

Neeld will rectify this, but it will take time.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Both.

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

Can somebody give me a rational excuse as to why we did not pick Jack Darling?

He is exactly what we lack at half forward.

Did Bails consider him uncoachable?

That one will always haunt me, even more so than $cully.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Can somebody give me a rational excuse as to why we did not pick Jack Darling?

He is exactly what we lack at half forward.

Did Bails consider him uncoachable?

That one will always haunt me, even more so than $cully.

I'm sure it will be haunting Baz Prendergast for the rest of his career as an opposition analyst (or whatever he's doing now), too.

[Sir Why You Little 37,038]

I'm sure it will be haunting Baz Prendergast for the rest of his career as an opposition analyst (or whatever he's doing now), too.

Yes no doubt. All care and no responsibility.

What a joke.

[1858 285]

Both.

Correct.

[Gorgoroth 12,954]

More development for me.

Most players went roughtly were they were predicted to go, we just seem to be able to ruin them.

I think also not having any one to set a true AFL standard for the new players to come in and measure themselves against has really hurt us.

[leucopogon 1,519]

More development for me.

Most players went roughtly were they were predicted to go, we just seem to be able to ruin them.

I think also not having any one to set a true AFL standard for the new players to come in and measure themselves against has really hurt us.

Last sentence couldn't be more true. Once you get into the position we're in though, what can you do, its a vicious downward spiral surely?

[Gooner 9]

I think it's a bit of both. I can't understand how we've gone backwards over the last two years. Off field problems may have a part to play but there are players out there who are better than the players that we've picked over the last few years.

In a lot of cases, we've picked the sort of players that were expected to go around the same time that we picked them, on other occassions (eg. Cook, Howe, Gysberts etc) we've picked players that were expected to go much later in the draft than we picked them.

We've also picked a lot of players that take time to develop, compared to the WCE who have picked a lot more ready made players (eg. Nic Nat, Darling) so we need another couple of years to work out how successful we've been.

[Clintosaurus 7,848]

I think the development of our young players is held up by the lack of genuine A-graders on our list. A kid who gets drafted by Geelong or Collingwood is going to develop quicker and be a better player in most cases as they have Chappy, Bartel, Selwood or Swan, Pendlebury, Thomas to train with and setting the example for them to follow. Who do we have?

Edited April 7, 2012 by Clintosaurus

[Gorgoroth 12,954]

Carlton players always talk about trying to measure themselves against Judd, pies about the way swann, thomas and pendelbury go about it, hell even Brisbane have Black. We have no one and have had no one for a long long time.

[jackaub 1,402]

I'm sure it will be haunting Baz Prendergast for the rest of his career as an opposition analyst (or whatever he's doing now), too.

Any body who knew anything about football would have selected Darling

Maybe BP and DB were not allowed to by our soft [censored] board and the various hangers on and urgers in the background who never stand up but exert influence

Think about it

[Carlos Danger 380]

A bit of both.

Can see a lot of delistings happening at season's end and rightly so. A mixture of kids from the super-draft and hardended 20-25 year old VFL/WAFL/SAFL players is what this squad needs.

[Norm Smith's Curse 2,602]

You know its almost laughable that some at the club predicted a premiership in 2013.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Given the fact that many "experts" out there are now describing our list as poor, not that I necessarily agree, is it the result of poor recruiting, poor development or a combination of both?

Many players seem to kick on quickly at other clubs while many of our high picks seem to stagnate. Again let me say when I give a few examples I am not writing off these players. We took Watts and Hurley who went later is a strongly built star of his club. Like wise Melksham is a developed mid while our higher pick of a couple of years earlier Morton is playing at Casey with the same build and development as when he came to the club. Cook our first pick of 2010 seems a long way off though so many of his year are now regulars. Blease also seems to have gone backwards and I am not sure that Bennell has developed above his natural talent he had when selected.

I know recruiting is not an absolute science but have we failed to get the best at our selections or have we failed to develop our players?.

Something is clearly or has been clearly wrong in the past at the MFC.

I don't think we have a bad list, but a poor culture from a long time. It shows in our Leaders. Lacking. Soft culture...

So because of this we are behind the 8 ball always, when trying to develop the kids into a hard bunch.

The pump games into them scenario, re morton, bennell, watts etal, hasn't worked. We need them to fight for they're places in the team...

Anyone who won't put the head over the ball, should be relegated to Casey for 3 weeks Min, each time. We have to make sacrifices to build a harder culture. Even at the expense of possible wins.

[Gooner 9]

Any body who knew anything about football would have selected Darling Maybe BP and DB were not allowed to by our soft [censored] board and the various hangers on and urgers in the background who never stand up but exert influence Think about it

How can you say that anyone who knew football would have selected Darling?

Every recruiter in the country overlooked him with their first pick?

There's a very good chance that Darling would have been selected with our second pick had he dropped that low, but twelve different recruiters overlooked him between our first pick and pick 26!

We've made recruiting errors I'm sure, as every club has, but let's be realistic about the extent of our errors.

[Chook 15,013]

Carlton players always talk about trying to measure themselves against Judd, pies about the way swann, thomas and pendelbury go about it, hell even Brisbane have Black. We have no one and have had no one for a long long time.

Free agency might actually help sides like us, contrary to the belief of people like WYL.

[Range Rover 1,935]

How can you say that anyone who knew football would have selected Darling?

Every recruiter in the country overlooked him with their first pick?

There's a very good chance that Darling would have been selected with our second pick had he dropped that low, but twelve different recruiters overlooked him between our first pick and pick 26!

We've made recruiting errors I'm sure, as every club has, but let's be realistic about the extent of our errors.

I'm sick of this argument. We've been through this a hundred times on Demonland before.

Only a couple of other clubs were outright looking for a KPF after the Gold Coast snatched Tom Lynch at pick 11 ... us and Carlton and one other who I can't recall.

We went for Lucas Cook instead of Jack Darling who is already a gun and don't give me a crap about him only being good because he's in a good side.

WE STUFFED IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jackaub 1,402]

I'm sick of this argument. We've been through this a hundred times on Demonland before.

Only a couple of other clubs were outright looking for a KPF after the Gold Coast snatched Tom Lynch at pick 11 ... us and Carlton and one other who I can't recall.

We went for Lucas Cook instead of Jack Darling who is already a gun and don't give me a crap about him only being good because he's in a good side.

WE STUFFED IT UP!!!!!!!!!!!!

RR I dont always agree with you but on this I agree whole heartedly

[jackaub 1,402]

A bit of both.

Can see a lot of delistings happening at season's end and rightly so. A mixture of kids from the super-draft and hardended 20-25 year old VFL/WAFL/SAFL players is what this squad needs.

Can we clear 18 in one year?

[Real Demon 232]

It has to be both.

Is it any wonder a club that has for so long had limited financial resource and misfired in so many areas of the clubs management, also had a very poor track record in recruiting and player development.

It would be unrealistic to expect anything else, and pretty much a miracle if we were getting our drafting spot on, and the club was a champion factory!

It's unfortunately as much about where we have come from as a club unfortunately.

Schwab said we were at Base Camp after debt demolition.....................it's clear that goes for all sections of the club.

[titan_uranus 25,020]

Development.

It's too easy to blame recruiters. I have said this many times before: I will not stand here and blame recruiters for poor players if there is no evidence to suggest they did something to draft a player that was out of the blue, unexpected, or against the knowledge.

Morton is a dud. But in 2007, he was considered a clear top 5 pick.

Right now, Naitanui is better than Watts. But in 2008, there was no doubt in anyone's minds that Watts was a top 2 pick.

Watts is not even close to being able to be classed as a failure. Too many people have no idea what they're talking about when they talk about Watts.

Sure, we could have taken Darling over Cook. But we don't know what Cook will be like. Sure, we could have taken Hurley over Watts. But if that decision was so obvious, why didn't Hurley's name ever pop up in the discussions of who to take?

Fact is, whilst recruiters should be best placed to know who will work at AFL and who will not, if there is a groundswell of support from all the clubs saying that a decision is valid, then I'll take it. And I'll place blame for subsequent poor performances on the player, for not adapting, and the coaches (mainly), for not doing a good enough job.

I say development and impatience.

I don't think there's anything wrong with the choices we've made, but they haven't been developed well, and in the main supporter's expectations have been unrealistic about how long it should take for this development.

There's nothing that makes our choices inferior to others, bar the usual later choices that turn into guns from nowhere.

Longmire discussed in the papers how the image of Fyfe in a swans jumper haunts him, since they planned to select him with their next pick after Rohan and Jetta.

They were sure he'd still be there, but the Dockers snatched him at 20.

The Swans ended up using their next pick on Sam Reid at 38.

There have also been articles where Mark Harvey has expressed absolute shock at how quickly and how well Fyfe had come on.

So, as much as "we should have picked him", no one else seemed to know he'd be such a gun, even those teams that clearly rated him.

Also a question has to be asked about what we are trying to achieve with our choices?

Wins now? or a premiership team in a couple of years?

I know these 2 things aren't mutually exclusive, but they're not mutually inclusive either.

Anyway, I've been surprised by some of the insight from Cameron Mooney at times when on the radio, and this morning I heard him discussing Melbourne's list briefly.

He said from playing against us for the last few years, his opinion is that we have kids who clearly have talent, but either they haven't been developed well, or they've been developed in the wrong way, and told to focus on the wrong things.

Neeld will rectify this, but it will take time.

The general ideas here are correct. Development is a problem. Impatience is also a problem (e.g. Watts, Cook).

But there has to come a point where we stop saying 'give it time, it will work'. There is only so much 'time' we can give coaches and players.

Fact is, we've had a lot of these players for 3-5 years. By now, we should be seeing so much more improvement than we are. Moreover, we are seeing similar mistakes which are rectifiable regardless of how well we're implementing the game plan. The non-negotiables - tackling, chasing, looking like you give a s--t. If we lose repeatedly but we look like we're trying, then we can pull out the 'time' card.