Narrowing in on either Grimes or Trengove for Captain

[Lutz 76]

I watched the games. Stats dont lie perceptions do.

As does a lack of understanding of how the stats should be interpreted...

Green and Davey were decidedly average in 2011.

[Allus Monk 568]

Here's my way of looking at the captaincy. It's beautifully unscientific, but I'm a writer so romanticism is my stock-in-trade.

Imagine (and I hope you only ever have to imagine) that you're in the heat of battle. In the cauldron of war, in the trench with the enemy just ahead. You get orders to go. You're scared as hell, but you know this is why you're here.

You have just enough time for one glance at the bloke next to you. One last connection. One last sense of shared purpose and fighting for the right. Who do you want to see? Who will make you think "we can do this, and we will prevail"?

Who will make you go, when every fibre in your body and mind is seeking survival and self-preservation; the most basic human instinct there is?

In recent AFL history, for me, Glenn Archer, David King, yes Nathan Buckley, Luke Hodge (maybe), Todd Viney, Garry Lyon, Michael Voss...

Seriously try to imagine this. You are putting everything in the hands of this person.

Of our current list?

James Frawley

Brent Moloney

Mark Jamar

Maybe Nathan Jones

That is all. For 2012.

[Sir Why You Little 37,039]

Here's my way of looking at the captaincy. It's beautifully unscientific, but I'm a writer so romanticism is my stock-in-trade.

Imagine (and I hope you only ever have to imagine) that you're in the heat of battle. In the cauldron of war, in the trench with the enemy just ahead. You get orders to go. You're scared as hell, but you know this is why you're here.

You have just enough time for one glance at the bloke next to you. One last connection. One last sense of shared purpose and fighting for the right. Who do you want to see? Who will make you think "we can do this, and we will prevail"?

Who will make you go, when every fibre in your body and mind is seeking survival and self-preservation; the most basic human instinct there is?

In recent AFL history, for me, Glenn Archer, David King, yes Nathan Buckley, Luke Hodge (maybe), Todd Viney, Garry Lyon, Michael Voss...

Seriously try to imagine this. You are putting everything in the hands of this person.

Of our current list?

James Frawley

Brent Moloney

Mark Jamar

Maybe Nathan Jones

That is all. For 2012.

You could add Jordie McKenzie to that list...He would never stop trying...

[Allus Monk 568]

Yes. I just think this construct illuminates the need for a certain gravity; a sense of a man for a man's job. Michael Voss was a man at 21. No criticism at all, but I don't have that sense about Jordie, JT or Frank Grimes for 2012.

[Demonsterative 3,020]

Then you need a perceptual readjustment old boy. Green was a shadow of his former self in '011.

Re the captaincy, people need to disabuse themselves of this tired notion of it being too much of a "burden" for a youngster.

It's a worrywart mindset, not a winner's one.

Im just trying to point out he was not our worst player and the club fell over in many depts. No captain could have lead well under such circumstances. Instead of shooting him down, understand the difficulties that confronted him.

Im not sure who should be captain. I think the leadership group is more important than the captain.

[jnrmac 20,065]

I've heard something similar. And it's not who you'd think.

I hope it's Davey. Needs a rocket.

[Sir Why You Little 37,039]

Yes. I just think this construct illuminates the need for a certain gravity; a sense of a man for a man's job. Michael Voss was a man at 21. No criticism at all, but I don't have that sense about Jordie, JT or Frank Grimes for 2012.

fair enough, we all sit in different parts of the ground...i did like your war analogy.

[Lutz 76]

I'd select Grimes first.

Some people see things others don't, I guess.

[monoccular 17,431]

Surely one cannot expect to have an "interim" from say Moloney or Jones, only to say in 12 months move over, here comes JT or Grimes? What would that do for the morale of the temp?

I really feel that Green for another year would be the best option, not being indecisive or weak, but just pragmatic. And I really don't think, on reflection, that he was maybe not as bad a leader last year as many would say: honestly, the way the team was prepared, drilled and set up on match days in 2011 who could have inspired them?

Allow JT and JG to get another full year (or in the case of JG more than a few consecutive games) into them, then decide.

[Damo 3,356]

If its not Green, the playing group must be 100% on board. If not then as I have previously stated I would hope Mark Jamar is able to embrace the role.

[Akum 2,660]

Surely one cannot expect to have an "interim" from say Moloney or Jones, only to say in 12 months move over, here comes JT or Grimes? What would that do for the morale of the temp?

I really feel that Green for another year would be the best option, not being indecisive or weak, but just pragmatic. And I really don't think, on reflection, that he was maybe not as bad a leader last year as many would say: honestly, the way the team was prepared, drilled and set up on match days in 2011 who could have inspired them?

Allow JT and JG to get another full year (or in the case of JG more than a few consecutive games) into them, then decide.

Well that's the way I'd do it if it was my decision to make.

But I'm trying to make the point that if the process for selecting the captain comes up with Moloney or Jones, it won't be because we need an interim. It will be because they have the best leadership attributes by a clear margin.

The process as described by Neeld himself will NOT throw up an interim. It will give us the guy with the best attributes to be captain, for Feb 2012 and for the future.

[Akum 2,660]

Im just trying to point out he was not our worst player and the club fell over in many depts. No captain could have lead well under such circumstances. Instead of shooting him down, understand the difficulties that confronted him. Im not sure who should be captain. I think the leadership group is more important than the captain.

What got me about Green last year were that there seemed to be a number of times when he had a chance to kick a real "captain's goal" and get us back into a game in which we were struggling. But in such a situation, he missed what for him was an easily-gettable set shot every time.

You could look at it one way and say, well, the game was in the balance and the captain's managed to get the ball in his hands, which is where you'd want the ball to be and what you'd want the captain to do when the game is in the balance. So that's a good thing. On the other hand, he invariably flubbed it, which is not good. But at least he was there for the opportunity, so something's gotta be said for that.

[DemonOX 8,791]

Have Moloney as captain and Trengove and VC, thats it. Beamer deserves it he bleeds red and blue.

[Akum 2,660]

Here's my way of looking at the captaincy. It's beautifully unscientific, but I'm a writer so romanticism is my stock-in-trade. Imagine (and I hope you only ever have to imagine) that you're in the heat of battle. In the cauldron of war, in the trench with the enemy just ahead. You get orders to go. You're scared as hell, but you know this is why you're here. You have just enough time for one glance at the bloke next to you. One last connection. One last sense of shared purpose and fighting for the right. Who do you want to see? Who will make you think "we can do this, and we will prevail"? Who will make you go, when every fibre in your body and mind is seeking survival and self-preservation; the most basic human instinct there is? In recent AFL history, for me, Glenn Archer, David King, yes Nathan Buckley, Luke Hodge (maybe), Todd Viney, Garry Lyon, Michael Voss... Seriously try to imagine this. You are putting everything in the hands of this person. Of our current list? James Frawley Brent Moloney Mark Jamar Maybe Nathan Jones That is all. For 2012.

Like the romanticism! But let's take it further.

Who is it that stands tall when the chips are down? When the rest of the boys are struggling, who continues to do the right things, the hard things, to show the way by example, to rally the troops?

All your list of past great captains would tick that off. But the Dees? Frawley definitely. Trengove & Grimes, both yes. Watts at times, & even Jones perhaps, and McKenzie as a smoky. But frankly ... that's about it. None of the senior players I'm afraid.

[Wadda We Sing 10,685]

Well you think a decision would be made pretty soon, if not already with the NAB Cup just 5 or so weeks away...

[Kento80 83]

What got me about Green last year were that there seemed to be a number of times when he had a chance to kick a real "captain's goal" and get us back into a game in which we were struggling. But in such a situation, he missed what for him was an easily-gettable set shot every time.

You could look at it one way and say, well, the game was in the balance and the captain's managed to get the ball in his hands, which is where you'd want the ball to be and what you'd want the captain to do when the game is in the balance. So that's a good thing. On the other hand, he invariably flubbed it, which is not good. But at least he was there for the opportunity, so something's gotta be said for that.

What got me was not so much the missed goals, but the body language. How many successful captains do you see, when the chips are down, hunching their soldiers and walking about. To me a good captain has least to do with how they play. A good captain needs to be a vocal captain. When things aren't working, he needs to be out there on the field talking, trying to inspire, trying to pass on ideas and knowledge. Green was completely incapable of this. The amount of times this year where I was looking for him to rally around the boys and have a word, get in their ears and try to inspire them equals the amount of times that I saw him doing nothing of the sort. I saw hime miss the "captains goal", and instead of running back and getting verbal trying to inspire in a different way, he would just mope. That's the only word I can think of to describe it effectively. His onfield body language when the chips are down, is that of a moper. And, sorry guys, but that aint the actions of a true captain. The other curious thing I noticed whilst looking for Green to be getting vocal, was someone else who seemed to be filling that role quite nicely. His name is JT, and for this reason, I do believe that he should be the next captain of the MFC. When the chips were down, he never showed it. He never let it get on top of him. He just kept going about what he needed to do, talking to the men beside him and trying to find a way to win. Yes he's young, but he is mature beyond his years and I can think of no better candidate at the MFC.

[Range Rover 1,935]

Like the romanticism! But let's take it further.

Who is it that stands tall when the chips are down? When the rest of the boys are struggling, who continues to do the right things, the hard things, to show the way by example, to rally the troops?

All your list of past great captains would tick that off. But the Dees? Frawley definitely. Trengove & Grimes, both yes. Watts at times, & even Jones perhaps, and McKenzie as a smoky. But frankly ... that's about it. None of the senior players I'm afraid.

I like your line of thinking Akum but still feel there's a missing ingredient ... intelligent leadership.

This quality requires more than leading by example, doing the 1%'s etc. Granted, those are essentials. But what sets the top man apart is his nuanced understanding of the game and of the individual personalities and psyches of his teammates (and opponents).

ie. When a backman has had two quick ones kicked on him by a Cloke or a Franklin, he'll know just what to say to bring that player back into focus. Or when we're getting the rough end of the stick of the umpiring (which seems to be often!), he'll approach the men in white with tact and guile.

He'll know what to say to the group when we're five goals down at half time in a grand final.

Too much to ask? I don't think so. Not at the new Melbourne. When we're thinking about who should be leader, let's consider the level of intelligence required by these types of scenarios. It should reduce any shortlist dramatically.

[Good Times Grimes 2,396]

Even if a player is not named captain, it doesn't and shouldn't stop them from leading. Sure, the captain plays a somewhat larger role than other players both on and off the ground, but the main difference is being the face of the club in the media and picking heads or tails before a match. Jack Trengove has displayed that he is cool, calm and collected in the media (see all interviews re $cully) and he plays with his heart on his sleeve; while Frank Grimes has shown that he can lead even without playing (leadership award in 2011) and is also great in the media. Both players are Melbourne through and through, and I expect them both to retire as one club players. Either of them would be a great choice for the captaincy, but even if they don't get it I'm sure that they will continue to be leaders of the MFC both on and off the ground for the rest of their careers.

[Webber 10,468]

Here's my way of looking at the captaincy. It's beautifully unscientific, but I'm a writer so romanticism is my stock-in-trade.

Imagine (and I hope you only ever have to imagine) that you're in the heat of battle. In the cauldron of war, in the trench with the enemy just ahead. You get orders to go. You're scared as hell, but you know this is why you're here.

You have just enough time for one glance at the bloke next to you. One last connection. One last sense of shared purpose and fighting for the right. Who do you want to see? Who will make you think "we can do this, and we will prevail"?

Who will make you go, when every fibre in your body and mind is seeking survival and self-preservation; the most basic human instinct there is?

In recent AFL history, for me, Glenn Archer, David King, yes Nathan Buckley, Luke Hodge (maybe), Todd Viney, Garry Lyon, Michael Voss...

Seriously try to imagine this. You are putting everything in the hands of this person.

Of our current list?

James Frawley

Brent Moloney

Mark Jamar

Maybe Nathan Jones

That is all. For 2012.

We need more quality expression on here Allus Monk, so I plead with you to post more. Romanticism and lyricism go hand in hand with football, and particularly as it relates to those all too emotionally invested observers........US! Heading into the realm of intangible character observation (if not spiritual fantasy), whilst I'm a huge fan of Brent Moloney and Nathan Jones as uncompromising club men, I have never, at any club, over too many decades, seen more obvious captain material than Jack Trengove. Maybe not this year, but just as next thursday is Australia Day, it is a cosmic certainty he will be captain of this football club, a premiership captain, and one of the greatest in our history.

[Allus Monk 568]

We need more quality expression on here Allus Monk, so I plead with you to post more. Romanticism and lyricism go hand in hand with football, and particularly as it relates to those all too emotionally invested observers........US! Heading into the realm of intangible character observation (if not spiritual fantasy), whilst I'm a huge fan of Brent Moloney and Nathan Jones as uncompromising club men, I have never, at any club, over too many decades, seen more obvious captain material than Jack Trengove. Maybe not this year, but just as next thursday is Australia Day, it is a cosmic certainty he will be captain of this football club, a premiership captain, and one of the greatest in our history.

Thanks for the compliment Webber. I agree with you in many ways, and I just so hope you're right.

[Fitz Fitzpatrick 886]

There has been a lot to like from Neeld since he was appointed and this report, if its kosher, is anuther one in a good list

I'm liking 2012 more and more,,,,,,

Go Dees Give 'em HELL!!!

This isnt good news at all. if true it means that half of the pre season has slipped by and the players are still not putting in as hard as the coaching staff are requiring. I cant see how this is a good report? It shows that Neeld has not been able to extract from the senior players the heart and dedication he feels is required - and its January!

[Guest Jackie]

This isnt good news at all. if true it means that half of the pre season has slipped by and the players are still not putting in as hard as the coaching staff are requiring. I cant see how this is a good report? It shows that Neeld has not been able to extract from the senior players the heart and dedication he feels is required - and its January!

Or it could mean that the lost causes have been identified and ready for pasture out to Casey in preparation for a future cull.

[deesrule 104]

I feel that the captain should be a midfielder so that he can communicate with everone during the game this would rule out Green and Frawley. He should also be a good communicator to the media which may be a problem with Beamer (maybe Jamar) and Davey.

He should also be a regular member of the team which leaves Grimes a bit doubtful.

Trengove fits as does Jones

[Lil_red_fire_engine 11,177]

Surely one cannot expect to have an "interim" from say Moloney or Jones, only to say in 12 months move over, here comes JT or Grimes? What would that do for the morale of the temp?

I really feel that Green for another year would be the best option, not being indecisive or weak, but just pragmatic. And I really don't think, on reflection, that he was maybe not as bad a leader last year as many would say: honestly, the way the team was prepared, drilled and set up on match days in 2011 who could have inspired them?

Allow JT and JG to get another full year (or in the case of JG more than a few consecutive games) into them, then decide.

The new coaches have already stated that they have different focuses from an individual, team, leadership and gamestyle perspective.Each coach is rating each player on the leadership characteristics they bring to the table. No disrespect but does anyone seriously think that Green will come out on or even close to on top?

[rpfc 28,433]

What got me was not so much the missed goals, but the body language. How many successful captains do you see, when the chips are down, hunching their soldiers and walking about. To me a good captain has least to do with how they play. A good captain needs to be a vocal captain. When things aren't working, he needs to be out there on the field talking, trying to inspire, trying to pass on ideas and knowledge. Green was completely incapable of this. The amount of times this year where I was looking for him to rally around the boys and have a word, get in their ears and try to inspire them equals the amount of times that I saw him doing nothing of the sort. I saw hime miss the "captains goal", and instead of running back and getting verbal trying to inspire in a different way, he would just mope. That's the only word I can think of to describe it effectively. His onfield body language when the chips are down, is that of a moper. And, sorry guys, but that aint the actions of a true captain.

This is the picture I saw.

And no stats will illustrate it for those who love stats (and I am partial to numbers).

But stats lie.