Pessimism or Reality?

[beelzebub 22,279]

We wont advance either til we cease with concedual footy ( new word..see ref elsewhere lol )

Much is a mindset.. if you go out there looking to stop the other once they have ball instead of getting the ball and being positive ourselves we will stand still eternally.

I wonder where this directive must eminate ??

[Guest hangon007]

That's obvious isn't it? Geelong, Collingwood and Hawthorn, with either WC or Carlton rounding it out.

Interesting you mention those 5 names. So obvious everyone wants to over analyse it.

The players are not doing this, they are not doing that. - This player and that player are not good enough.

The coaching department are not doing this, they are not doing that. - This coach and that coach are not good enough.

hehehehe ... nice stuff guys.

[furious d 447]

Interesting you mention those 5 names. So obvious everyone wants to over analyse it.

The players are not doing this, they are not doing that. - This player and that player are not good enough.

The coaching department are not doing this, they are not doing that. - This coach and that coach are not good enough.

hehehehe ... nice stuff guys.

OK i'll bite. Are you suggesting we shouldn't discuss football matters on a football discussion site?

[Sir Why You Little 34,772]

Interesting you mention those 5 names. So obvious everyone wants to over analyse it.

The players are not doing this, they are not doing that. - This player and that player are not good enough.

The coaching department are not doing this, they are not doing that. - This coach and that coach are not good enough.

hehehehe ... nice stuff guys.

Yes your angle of discussion over the last 10 days has been somewhat "Different" so what would you suggest we supporters discuss 007??

[Redleg 37,933]

Yes your angle of discussion over the last 10 days has been somewhat "Different" so what would you suggest we supporters discuss 007??

He might be happy discussing my breakfast. It was poached eggs on multigrain bread with roast tomatoes. The eggs were too hard, the yellow solid, the bread thin and soft and the tomatoes gooey. Now I could blame the chef but Hangon 007 might say that is unfair as the chicken was young and inexperienced, the baker is only learning and the tomatoes came in a bad season and will get better in the coming years. Lets not blame the cook of course because he takes no responsibility whatsoever. Let the discussion begin.

[Sir Why You Little 34,772]

He might be happy discussing my breakfast. It was poached eggs on multigrain bread with roast tomatoes. The eggs were too hard, the yellow solid, the bread thin and soft and the tomatoes gooey. Now I could blame the chef but Hangon 007 might say that is unfair as the chicken was young and inexperienced, the baker is only learning and the tomatoes came in a bad season and will get better in the coming years. Lets not blame the cook of course because he takes no responsibility whatsoever. Let the discussion begin.

+1 (I enjoyed the entire first season of "Boardwalk Empire" btwv Redleg, may i suggest a 2nd viewing)

[Guest hangon007]

He might be happy discussing my breakfast. It was poached eggs on multigrain bread with roast tomatoes. The eggs were too hard, the yellow solid, the bread thin and soft and the tomatoes gooey. Now I could blame the chef but Hangon 007 might say that is unfair as the chicken was young and inexperienced, the baker is only learning and the tomatoes came in a bad season and will get better in the coming years. Lets not blame the cook of course because he takes no responsibility whatsoever. Let the discussion begin.

Thanks I liked that. We have many great minds around here. Sad at times what they spend nearly 100% of their time talking about.

This place should be positive & constructive yet our "voice" wants to coach our side than assist in improving our club. I'm as guilty as anyone at times so I'm not having a go at anyone .. no need to be so touchy.

But hey merely an observation.

Edited July 25, 2011 by hangon007

[Redleg 37,933]

+1 (I enjoyed the entire first season of "Boardwalk Empire" btwv Redleg, may i suggest a 2nd viewing)

I still remember the first half of the season fairly well but am happy to come in at about half way and give it another chance. Glad you enjoyed it though.

[Guest hangon007]

OK i'll bite. Are you suggesting we shouldn't discuss football matters on a football discussion site?

No I'm not ... I just reckon toooooo many focus 100% of their time on the on-field matters. They care little & show no will to get to where they can make any real influence today ... off field matters.

Edited July 25, 2011 by hangon007

[Sir Why You Little 34,772]

I still remember the first half of the season fairly well but am happy to come in at about half way and give it another chance. Glad you enjoyed it though.

First class show RedLeg....Steve Buschemi is a truly great actor, but so is the whole cast.

[satyricon 267]

Hello,

I just got back from Darwin after watching the team run themselves to a standstill in stifling heat to record a great victory.

Yesterday I went to the G hoping we wouldn't get smashed, if we cut out the free kick and 50, Maric miss and a couple of silly turnovers we would have had a close game.

We had ten players 21 and under.

We ran out of legs in the last quarter, and it blew out a bit but we didn't give up, at the moment there are the top 4 and then the rest who will lose to the top 4 and depending on sets of circumstances will either win or lose against the rest

Hawthorn are 3rd because they are crap right.....

Positives Howe, Martin and Watts making saving marks in the back half (education continues, Frawley not giving up on Franklin when he had the right to.

Everybody relax take a few deep breaths, not this year, but next when the 'kids' have a few more games in them, we have Davey, Bail, Grimes to bring back in if we need them....etc etc..and then the year after.....keep the faith

[furious d 447]

No I'm not ... I just reckon toooooo many focus 100% of their time on the on-field matters. They care little & show no will to get to where they can make any real influence today ... off field matters.

In case you haven't noticed, footy is played on field. It's not surprising people talk about that aspect of the game. There are lots of threads on here and plenty of them relate to off field matters, so I'm not sure what your complaint is. I am curious though, what exactly can I do now, off field, today, that will make a real influence?

[RalphiusMaximus 5,993]

Some over the top statements there but the decision to get rid of Mcdonald is turning out to be a shocker.

While I agree that we could have used Junior this year, I have some serious reservations about the notion of keeping him on.

Firstly, who would we have delisted in his place? We offloaded Junior, Bell, Miller and Johnson from the senior list, and lost Bruce as a direct result of sacking Junior. Therefore had Junior stayed we would most likely have offloaded only Bell, Johnson, Miller and the Rookies. With the veteran spots filled by Bruce and Junior, Green stays on the main list. This means that we either cut McKenzie and Spencer loose or we promote them to the main list and only have one live pick in the draft. Obviously the club was not letting go of Jordie and at the time our ruck stocks were looking in very bad shape, so Spencer was required. Since it would be madness to go into the draft with only one live pick, we would have had to drop someone to keep Junior. Who was that player going to be?

Secondly, I think that his body was beginning to show signs of wear and tear. I would have hated to see him have a farewell season like Brad Johnston over at the Bulldogs, constantly injured and more or less a liability when he got on the park. Better to go out while you are still able to earn a spot in the team.

Finally, there is the fact that we are seeing so much from the first year players who are getting games for us this year. Would Evans or Nicholson have had a chance if we had a senior midfielder or two to spare? These guys are the future of our club and they need to get time on the field playing with the firsts to get the hang of the game. In the short term they are not as effective as those they replace, but long-term the benefit is huge.

I honestly think that it was the right time for Junior to go. He was told that at the beginning of the year, and the fuss, however muted it has been, is to me the only selfish thing he has ever done in his football career. Had he been able to accept that the call had been made months earlier and just enjoy his final season for what it was, I have no doubt that he would now be working as an assistant coach/player development person with the MFC and continuing the amazing job he did as a mentor and guide to our young list.

[Sir Why You Little 34,772]

While I agree that we could have used Junior this year, I have some serious reservations about the notion of keeping him on.

Firstly, who would we have delisted in his place? We offloaded Junior, Bell, Miller and Johnson from the senior list, and lost Bruce as a direct result of sacking Junior. Therefore had Junior stayed we would most likely have offloaded only Bell, Johnson, Miller and the Rookies. With the veteran spots filled by Bruce and Junior, Green stays on the main list. This means that we either cut McKenzie and Spencer loose or we promote them to the main list and only have one live pick in the draft. Obviously the club was not letting go of Jordie and at the time our ruck stocks were looking in very bad shape, so Spencer was required. Since it would be madness to go into the draft with only one live pick, we would have had to drop someone to keep Junior. Who was that player going to be?

Secondly, I think that his body was beginning to show signs of wear and tear. I would have hated to see him have a farewell season like Brad Johnston over at the Bulldogs, constantly injured and more or less a liability when he got on the park. Better to go out while you are still able to earn a spot in the team.

Finally, there is the fact that we are seeing so much from the first year players who are getting games for us this year. Would Evans or Nicholson have had a chance if we had a senior midfielder or two to spare? These guys are the future of our club and they need to get time on the field playing with the firsts to get the hang of the game. In the short term they are not as effective as those they replace, but long-term the benefit is huge.

I honestly think that it was the right time for Junior to go. He was told that at the beginning of the year, and the fuss, however muted it has been, is to me the only selfish thing he has ever done in his football career. Had he been able to accept that the call had been made months earlier and just enjoy his final season for what it was, I have no doubt that he would now be working as an assistant coach/player development person with the MFC and continuing the amazing job he did as a mentor and guide to our young list.

+1

[Brayshaw Self 847]

I was in the rooms after the game and, with a few obvious exceptions, the players looked like an under 16s team. That's the trade-off of drafting fast, skilled kids as opposed to solid bodies. The only remedy is to wait for the players to develop their bodies over the next few pre-seasons and develop their footy through playing teams like Hawthorn and Collingwood.

[satyricon 267]

While I agree that we could have used Junior this year, I have some serious reservations about the notion of keeping him on.

Firstly, who would we have delisted in his place? We offloaded Junior, Bell, Miller and Johnson from the senior list, and lost Bruce as a direct result of sacking Junior. Therefore had Junior stayed we would most likely have offloaded only Bell, Johnson, Miller and the Rookies. With the veteran spots filled by Bruce and Junior, Green stays on the main list. This means that we either cut McKenzie and Spencer loose or we promote them to the main list and only have one live pick in the draft. Obviously the club was not letting go of Jordie and at the time our ruck stocks were looking in very bad shape, so Spencer was required. Since it would be madness to go into the draft with only one live pick, we would have had to drop someone to keep Junior. Who was that player going to be?

Secondly, I think that his body was beginning to show signs of wear and tear. I would have hated to see him have a farewell season like Brad Johnston over at the Bulldogs, constantly injured and more or less a liability when he got on the park. Better to go out while you are still able to earn a spot in the team.

Finally, there is the fact that we are seeing so much from the first year players who are getting games for us this year. Would Evans or Nicholson have had a chance if we had a senior midfielder or two to spare? These guys are the future of our club and they need to get time on the field playing with the firsts to get the hang of the game. In the short term they are not as effective as those they replace, but long-term the benefit is huge.

I honestly think that it was the right time for Junior to go. He was told that at the beginning of the year, and the fuss, however muted it has been, is to me the only selfish thing he has ever done in his football career. Had he been able to accept that the call had been made months earlier and just enjoy his final season for what it was, I have no doubt that he would now be working as an assistant coach/player development person with the MFC and continuing the amazing job he did as a mentor and guide to our young list.

Careful, that is a brilliantly written, well though out piece, agree totally, we may be able to set a trend here...

[beelzebub 22,279]

While I agree that we could have used Junior this year, I have some serious reservations about the notion of keeping him on.

.......................

.......................... Had he been able to accept that the call had been made months earlier and just enjoy his final season for what it was, I have no doubt that he would now be working as an assistant coach/player development person with the MFC and continuing the amazing job he did as a mentor and guide to our young list.

This will be far too harmful for the poor folks who insist on looking for some sort of magic bullet excuse for all our woes.

The reality is its only ever been honoured by Bailey that it might have been handled better... Not that the result ought to have been different and on that i completely agree.

some suggest theres a lack of leadership out there. In some ways yes but in others theres far to omuch reliance on this notion. For mine , in my limited days of footy ( and possibly many many years of other competitve sport ) I took ownership of my presence on the field > I didnt wait to be led by the nose to the ball and shepherd along the way ( mind you a good shepherds was always welcome, or given ) . 18 blokes take to the field at a time. There's 18 consciences out there at a time..Its beholding to them to put in from the first boune not wait until some inpsirational move by the nominated captian, or the elders ( and god forbid as youd be waiting at Melbourne).

Trengove doesnt wait, Scully doesnt, Martin doesnt, Gyspberts doesnt, I dont think Jordie wait for anything !! Tappy isnt waiting ..well maybe for an opportunity to kill someone !!

For mine it isnt really teh notion of leadership per se that was possibly Maccas forte it was that he gave 110%. Others are supposed to too, they dont.

Its not a lack of leadership were missing...but the input and effort of many players who ought to know bettter.

I see leadership out there...I dont see a whole team putting in..and shame on some !!

[jnrmac 19,283]

Melbourne has defeated two, repeat TWO Victorian teams in the four years since since DB took charge.

It is untenable for DB to continue.

[dee-luded 2,958]

Melbourne has defeated two, repeat TWO Victorian teams in the four years since since DB took charge.

It is untenable for DB to continue.

Oh you obviously didn't believe in tanking to rebuild the list in a hurry. But you will except the benefits of the improved list. But, want to whinge about the time it takes them to learn & grow.

Weak.

[satyricon 267]

Melbourne has defeated two, repeat TWO Victorian teams in the four years since since DB took charge.

It is untenable for DB to continue.

Are you going for a record to see how many topics you can fit this statement into?

I thought it was the Australian Football League, not Victorian Football League

[Diablo Deemon 220]

You are living on cloud 9 in your own head Diablo.

I share the same passion and love for this club, but I don't think everything is all rosey and that success

will inevatibly come about because of our list etc. You shouldn't either.

Stop accepting mediocrity.

I agree wholeheartedly with the opening post in the sense that we have a serious lack of quality leaders. That

has been a problem for a while now.

My other concern is that we have a game plan that in no way can penetrate or match it against many sides in

the AFL.

Here are some problems that immediately need addressing before the 2012 season begins. (Whether Bailey stays or not)

1 - We MUST adopt some form of a modern day press. Only once this year have we seriously troubled a good side in their backhalf and that was against Essendon where we smashed the 'tackles inside 50' record. Why has it happened only once this year if Bailey keeps saying that our game plan relies on turnovers in our forward half? Why? I always hear Bailey speaking about forward pressure, but how often do we see it?

2 - Our kickouts. Is our plan to just kick long to a 50/50 contest, hope that we get numbers around the ball and then move the ball with numbers into our forward 50? If it is, (which it seems as though it is) we are never going

to get anywhere near beating quality sides. You would think an AFL club would have more than just a 'bomb it long to a contest' approach to kickouts. Why don't we have a plan B, or C?

3 - Lack of quality kickers. Has been a serious issue, especially in the backline. Just look at Hawthorn's backline

or team for that matter. We need to inject some silky skilled players.

4 - A quality experienced player. We have so many youngsters and as the opening post suggests, we have a serious lack of quality leaders and experienced players. If we could somehow trade for a gun forward/back/or

mid next draft, it would do wonders to our side. Create hype, boost morale, all of that goodness that helps develop

and inspire players.

Your not Paul McNamee by any chance?

Wasn't it his great white hope, the absolute fillet to bring in a big name player in exactly the same way you describe. See how far that got him

with Jonathon Brown

Too bad the salary cap pressure it would have bought to the club turned that theory into a absolute white elephant.

I reckon there's plenty of 'hype' 'morale' and 'goodness' with all the recent draftees. There are superstars amongst our list they need one thing TIME.

Lack of on field leadership - has been an issue for 10 years quite simply we lacked the quality for any sustained success we took a broom to our list and

rebuilt our club from ground - Why start again?

Send Barry Prendergast an email and ask him why we don't have any quality kickers he'll tell you since 2007 that been a major criteria of our recruiting.

Do you know more than Barry? Are you within the inner sanctum? Can you unbiasedly access player development?

Kick ins - it is the plan if there isn't a free player kick long down the line halve the contest set up for a ball in this is the case of the majority of teams.

We smashed Adelaide with our press that was the best display of our press.

Our effort against Richmond for total team defence was also a better display then the Essendon game - we set a club record for tackles

The reason there is such a glaring disparity? we don't set up a tight enough zone why not? Inexperience.

Again I got back to this chestnut

On average this year we have less games experience than gold coast

On average we have been younger side than gold coast.

We try to inact a press we're not consistent enough in application there are often holes.

These are facts.

You say cloud 9. I refuse to be sucked in by media, opposition and MFCSS which this thread is entirely corrupted by.

If you cant discuss football without the removal of emotion if you cant see where we are at in our development there's no point continuing to discuss

it cause MFCSS sufferers just won't get it.

What I am in favour of is identifying the media/supporter driven expectation of where we are at and critically and factually assessing what the reality is.

I mean it is insane to believe that after 2010 we have all the pieces in place to perform consistently.

It's also insane how people's expectation has clouded the reality of where we are at.

less games on average than gold coast, less years experience than gold coast consistently throughout the year.

Now go on and pass it off as if this means nothing....

Edited July 25, 2011 by Diablo Deemon

[binman 39,045]

To be a top four contender, you really need the core of your best players to be physically mature and the genuine leader of your team (usually around 24-27yo). At present, our problems are two-fold. Firtsly, we only have a very small core of players in that age bracket. Secondly, the quality of these players is not quite at the level required for a top team anyway. We have two or three B+ graders in that age bracket (Davey, Sylvia, Jamar and Green who is a bit older) and some solid B graders (Moloney, Rivers, Martin). Of the B+ graders, only one has played to standard this year IMO and that is Sylvia. The rest have been below their best.

All the top fourn contenders have multiple A graders in or around that age bracket. Collingwood's are right in the age sweet spot as are Carlton's and Hawthorn's. Geelong's and West Coast's are a bit older (which means they will probably fall back down the ladder quicker than the other three). St Kilda has a reasonable mix of senior plaeyrs also. Sydney, Fremantle, Essendon and the Kangaroos are all lacking a large core of senior leaders like the top 5 but have much better service from their top end (Goodes, O'Keefe, Pavlich, Sandilands, Watson, Fletcher, Harvey, Petrie, Wells etc.).

In reality, we would need to either trade for probably two A-graders in that 24-27yo age bracket (not likely) or, in reality, wait for our core group of youngsters to fill this age/experience bracket in 2014-2015. This is no different from the journey we have been expecting all along. Still all about patience, no matter how frustrating it is in the meantime.

Spot on, was going to post something very similar but didn't have the energy. Was just saying the other day to a mate that we don't have any A graders in that crucial age bracket 24-27. In fact we don't have one, full stop - Frawley perhsp but just, maybe Jamar?. When was the last time we did? Perhaps as far back as Lyon before he went bung, perhaps Viney also?

We are not likely to be able to draft any and yes we just have to be patient. We also have to help like hell that are youngsters do develop into real a graders. If they don't we're in trouble. There's no gaurentees. Morton was talked about early as top liner but looks along way off A grade atm.

However i would like to see us go after a big forward as i reckon we need one for the next couple of years while we wait for Cook, Watts etc to fill out. We need one to help our structure i reckon. On sunday too many high balls to just inside 50. I'm sorry to say, having been a fan, Bate should have played his last game for the dees on the w/e. To slow, not big enough. Sorry Bater

The margins against top sides? Yep a worry, but i reckon the sub rule really disadvatages the younger sides and conversely is a big advantage to the older more mature bodied sides, partic. late in quarters and games. Haven't seen any stats but i reckon all Melbourne's real peers (north, rich, essendon, - sad to say but Gold Coast, in terms of their age anyway) all have been touched up by the top sides

Edited July 25, 2011 by binman

[Sir Why You Little 34,772]

The margins against top sides? Yep a worry, but i reckon the sub rule really disadvatages the younger sides and conversely is a big advantage to the older more mature bodied sides, partic. late in quarters and games. Haven't seen any stats but i reckon all Melbourne's real peers (north, rich, essendon, - sad to say but Gold Coast, in terms of their age anyway) all have been touched up by the top sides

We give away our big margins in the first Quarter against Top Sides...before the sub rule kicks in. Not an excuse that one. Watch sundays first Quarter. It is a trend sadly.

[Mondê 525]

We don't put nearly enough money into the FD, compared to clubs like Collingwood, Essendon, Hawthorn, Geelong and surprisingly even North Melbourne etc. who all buy premium data packages from champion data including behind the goals vision, advanced statistics etc...the kind of data which i suspect is referred to in every pre and post match meeting. It really shows on gameday with our lack of on field strategy (coaching could be the issue) changeability, and our general inability to match the powerhouses. Not just tactics like the press which I have repeatedly stated is essential to employ or at the very least generate a strategy to counter it. How easily do the good teams we play get out of our forward line. And how easily to we get out of the good teams forward line? It's just basic modern day football and we haven't evolved as other clubs have. I am unsure as to whether or not Dean Bailey should continue or not - as I am certain if he had access to the resources and intelligence Malthouse and Clarkson do, he could be a great coach. Just as he inherited a terrible playing list, he also inherited a sub-standard football department.

[Born to Run 204]

I will be very interested to see if by the end of the season we have knocked over a top 8 side this year.

We did beat Freo who currently sit in there at the moment, but they have a pretty tough run home.

It is conceivable that we may not have notched a win against a single top 8 side this year when finals come around.

Wins thus far coming against:

Port (17th)

Brisbane (15th)

GC (16th)

Richmond (13th)

Freo (7th with a tough run home)

Essendon (9th with a tough run home)

Adelaide (14th)

Most assume we will / can beat Port, Rich and GC when we meet them for a second time this year.

If we cant beat WCE, Carlton or Geelong, then there is a real chance it cant happen.

Did we roll a top 8 side last year? We got mighty close against the pies and WB.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Born to Run