Athletes or footballers

[Harrisonrules 273]

The general trend in the AFL has been to increasingly value the Athlete as a footballer. Many footballers are exceptional athletes, but in numerous cases the lesser skilled player is still tolerated. At Melbourne our coaches are lagging behind other teams in solving this matter. We continue to play footballers with skill way below final four level. If it is believed they can develop the required skill they should do this in the VFL. They wear Red and Blue so we love them, but Bartram, the great survivor Miller, Spencer (to early to play him) Bell, Dunne (disappointing, are all holding the team back. Why do supporters see but the coaching team don't?

[Vagg 2,439]

The general trend in the AFL has been to increasingly value the Athlete as a footballer. Many footballers are exceptional athletes, but in numerous cases the lesser skilled player is still tolerated. At Melbourne our coaches are lagging behind other teams in solving this matter. We continue to play footballers with skill way below final four level. If it is believed they can develop the required skill they should do this in the VFL. They wear Red and Blue so we love them, but Bartram, the great survivor Miller, Spencer (to early to play him) Bell, Dunne (disappointing, are all holding the team back. Why do supporters see but the coaching team don't?

Guess dem dumb coaches are not as smart as the brilliant supporters on this forum. Time to switch roles...? (LOL)

[Keyser Söze 0]

This thread = fail.

[Steamin Demon 392]

This thread = fail.

Off the high horse Keyser, It's a forum.

[Keyser Söze 0]

Off the high horse Keyser, It's a forum.

Exactly.

I was quite succinctly expressing my opinion that the ideas put forward in this thread are hogwash.

Anything to add?

[DeeSpencer 25,744]

The general trend in the AFL has been to increasingly value the Athlete as a footballer. Many footballers are exceptional athletes, but in numerous cases the lesser skilled player is still tolerated. At Melbourne our coaches are lagging behind other teams in solving this matter. We continue to play footballers with skill way below final four level. If it is believed they can develop the required skill they should do this in the VFL. They wear Red and Blue so we love them, but Bartram, the great survivor Miller, Spencer (to early to play him) Bell, Dunne (disappointing, are all holding the team back. Why do supporters see but the coaching team don't?

Every team plays guys every week who have below par skills, probably because they find and win the footy much better than the skillful alternative. Or they work hard off the ball, or bring others into the game. Their is so much more to footy than skills. Even tonight Luke Ball and Mark Blake will be out there.

That said we should look to develop the more skilled on our list over the battlers.

But at CHF Miller is in this week because 3 more skilled alternatives are injured - Bate, Petterd and Jurrah.

Spencer is in this week as PJ is crap, Martin is injured as are others. Yes he's being played early but we are trying to get an advantage over Port instead of playing Dunn (who you've identified as a player going nowhere). On that point Bell hasn't played for ages anyway.

Bartram is an interesting case. I think he survives in the back pocket as his defensive work is a class above what Strauss in particular can offer. He doesn't hold the team back he actually improves it. I'd be playing him if I was the footy department.

[The Big Ticket 94]

Mark Blake, Matty Egan (AA in '07) are two players I remember, can't kick the ball. Egan was centre half back in '07, probably Geelongs best year.

So yes, not a very good OP at all.

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

The general trend in the AFL has been to increasingly value the Athlete as a footballer. Many footballers are exceptional athletes, but in numerous cases the lesser skilled player is still tolerated. At Melbourne our coaches are lagging behind other teams in solving this matter. We continue to play footballers with skill way below final four level. If it is believed they can develop the required skill they should do this in the VFL. They wear Red and Blue so we love them, but Bartram, the great survivor Miller, Spencer (to early to play him) Bell, Dunne (disappointing, are all holding the team back. Why do supporters see but the coaching team don't?

Its an esoteric take on modern football but one that I embrace (particularly after a bottle of red).

Football used to tolerate players of modest athleticicm but other talents, but there were always players of exceptional athleticism but modest skill as well. Perhaps the football departments of many clubs find it easier to add skill to the athlete rather than to add athletics to the skilled. Witness the host of Gaellic footballers who grew up on the modest challenges of the round ball but who with requisite athleticism and application have developed AFL skills.

The simple fact is that if you cant get to enough positions or contests through lack of speed or endurance (athleticicm) then it is impossible to exercise your skills. By contrast a good athlete can acquire the requisite skills. You say that "the lesser skilled player is still tolerated" - truth be known not for long and they are only tolerated because of the lack of an alternative.

Just way off the track I well remember a reserves playing coach at the Mt Eliza Demons (Brian McQ) who would recharge at quarter time with a [censored] and a cup of coffee - he wanst alone. He wasnt much of an athlete (or role model for that matter) but there was a place for him then. Times have changed.

[Chook 15,013]

The simple fact is that if you cant get to enough positions or contests through lack of speed or endurance (athleticicm) then it is impossible to exercise your skills.

Exactly. A body around the ball is still a body around the ball, no matter how little skill it has. If you can get yourself to contests when you don't have the ball and get away from your opponent when you do, then you have a place in a modern AFL team.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Or put another way, Clubs are a little more precise these in their assessment and expectations of players when

1. They have the ball (and what they do with it)

2. They dont have the ball (eg accountability, tackling and defensive pressure)

3. The ball is neutral territory (eg judgment, commitment, contesting ball winning attributes)

[pm24 451]

I'd hate to say it, but i see Stefan Martin as our attempt to convert an athlete into a footballer. Granted he hasn't been playing the game long, but sometimes you get sick and tired of hearing about the potential of a player, and would prefer to just see some results. PJ is another example of an athletic guy (for his size) who just has no football brain whatsoever.

Those two are living proof that athletic ability seems to trump football ability more times than not.

[Felix 92]

... Dunne ...Why do supporters see but the coaching team don't?

The coaches know best, they would also know how to spell the players name.

[Dinosaur Rover 197]

I'd hate to say it, but i see Stefan Martin as our attempt to convert an athlete into a footballer. Granted he hasn't been playing the game long, but sometimes you get sick and tired of hearing about the potential of a player, and would prefer to just see some results. PJ is another example of an athletic guy (for his size) who just has no football brain whatsoever.

Those two are living proof that athletic ability seems to trump football ability more times than not.

We arent the only ones trying out athletes. Other clubs are playing rugby (league and union), basketball and irish footballers. Recruiters are scouring China, Africa and Aregentina for talent. Could be collective madness or a calculated risk. If all your list was this type of gamble...but its not. I would not have called PJ athletic - but ruckmen always seems to be a bit slow on the uptake - must be the rarefied air they breathe or the time it takes for signals to go from brain to foot! Dunne was pick 15 (check) in the 2004 draft so judges other than demons thought he was the right mix of athlete and skills.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I'd hate to say it, but i see Stefan Martin as our attempt to convert an athlete into a footballer. Granted he hasn't been playing the game long, but sometimes you get sick and tired of hearing about the potential of a player, and would prefer to just see some results. PJ is another example of an athletic guy (for his size) who just has no football brain whatsoever.

Those two are living proof that athletic ability seems to trump football ability more times than not.

No they aren't. PJ is just a mobile ordinary footballer.

The skillsc required these days for football are such that I dont think the necessary skill sets for football and other ball codes are that different. Athleticism is now a core ingredient in every sport.

Years ago I loved Mick "The galloping gasometer" Nolan for North. Pity is, he is a dinosaur and would not cut it today or 10 years ago for that matter.

[dee-luded 2,959]

Guess dem dumb coaches are not as smart as the brilliant supporters on this forum. Time to switch roles...? (LOL)

oh, Hello then 'Vagg'???

[dee-luded 2,959]

The general trend in the AFL has been to increasingly value the Athlete as a footballer. Many footballers are exceptional athletes, but in numerous cases the lesser skilled player is still tolerated. At Melbourne our coaches are lagging behind other teams in solving this matter. We continue to play footballers with skill way below final four level. If it is believed they can develop the required skill they should do this in the VFL. They wear Red and Blue so we love them, but Bartram, the great survivor Miller, Spencer (to early to play him) Bell, Dunne (disappointing, are all holding the team back. Why do supporters see but the coaching team don't?

I don't think your really talking about OUR coaches,,, because WE have been doing just the opposite to that over the last 3 or 4 drafts 'Harrisonrules'...

Just because those footballer-athletes of ours haven't come through yet, most of, you poss' can't see it.

IMO, we have been doing just that.

But your right in that we're playing those athletes from past admin' era's, while the baby Dees grow.

Edited May 21, 2010 by dee-luded

[Roost It 1,434]

The general trend in the AFL has been to increasingly value the Athlete as a footballer. Many footballers are exceptional athletes, but in numerous cases the lesser skilled player is still tolerated. At Melbourne our coaches are lagging behind other teams in solving this matter. We continue to play footballers with skill way below final four level. If it is believed they can develop the required skill they should do this in the VFL. They wear Red and Blue so we love them, but Bartram, the great survivor Miller, Spencer (to early to play him) Bell, Dunne (disappointing, are all holding the team back. Why do supporters see but the coaching team don't?

I'd hardly call Miller, Dunn, Bell, Spencer or Bartram "athletes" They are limited footballers, that is all. As for supporters seeing thuings that coaches don't, you are kidding aren't you.

[darkhorse72 1,920]

its been a point of discussion for the last 15 years, since maybe Kouta from Carlton as the first true athlete footballer that I remember.

I prefer a footballer over an athlete as they know where to get the footy and give it. When an athlete players tends to do well when they play in the backvline. As forwards they really seem to fail as they have no footy brain, just good at getting to a contest.

[Dappa Dan 2,188]

The general trend in the AFL has been to increasingly value the Athlete as a footballer. Many footballers are exceptional athletes, but in numerous cases the lesser skilled player is still tolerated. At Melbourne our coaches are lagging behind other teams in solving this matter. We continue to play footballers with skill way below final four level. If it is believed they can develop the required skill they should do this in the VFL. They wear Red and Blue so we love them, but Bartram, the great survivor Miller, Spencer (to early to play him) Bell, Dunne (disappointing, are all holding the team back. Why do supporters see but the coaching team don't?

So you're saying Bartram, Spencer, Bell and Dunn are athletes before they're footballers? What are you on? I might have gone with you if you'd said Martin... and even then we have a #1 draft pick who is an athlete first (ex basketballer), so you can't hate the athlete drafting that much.

Bartram is the definition of good ordinary footballer. His skills aren't spectacular, but he's a footballer first, certainly.

Bell may not have a footy brain, but he certainly grew up playing the game and has a picture-perfect kicking action. Footballer first.

Dunn has a beautiful kicking action too. He lacks a bit of ticker in my opinion, certainly hears footsteps, but he's certainly not an athlete first.

Miller and in a roundabout way, Spencer, you may have a point.

And after all that, in answer to your question, players are given time to see what they have. If they show anything at all (Miller, Bartram, Spencer) theyre given a LOT of time. I for one hope the club continues this trend.

[Vagg 2,439]

oh, Hello then 'Vagg'???

Ever heard of "sarcasm"?

[jayceebee31 761]

Ever heard of "sarcasm"?

There is one thing for sure- Deeluded is not a sarcastic person..however many are on this site.

[Ryan Dee 140]

I'd hate to say it, but i see Stefan Martin as our attempt to convert an athlete into a footballer. Granted he hasn't been playing the game long, but sometimes you get sick and tired of hearing about the potential of a player, and would prefer to just see some results. PJ is another example of an athletic guy (for his size) who just has no football brain whatsoever.

Those two are living proof that athletic ability seems to trump football ability more times than not.

Exactly. He should not play forward for this reason. Why would someone who can't kick be put forward to finish off the work and kick goals?

[dee-luded 2,959]

I'd hardly call Miller, Dunn, Bell, Spencer or Bartram "athletes" They are limited footballers, that is all. As for supporters seeing thuings that coaches don't, you are kidding aren't you.

I think Bell is a footballer, but one of yesterday. what I mean is he appears to me a player who grew learning the game in a time when a player was allways in more space with the ball than we get today with the interchange & it's rotations causing floods & zones. This doesn't have seemed to have suited Belly, but when he has space he looks like a player.

I'm sure this would apply to many, but I think Bell is a footballer, not an athlete. He just doesn't have planned what to do with the ball prior to receiving it.

Look at Ablett Jnr, he nearly allways knows what he's doing, & if that's anticipated, he's developed a instinctively reactive, changes of direction to get himself into a better position. He really trusts himself.

[Theo 272]

I think the players mentioned in this post don't have much confidence in their own ability. Miller, Newton, PJ, Bell etc. Or they just don't have enough ability at AFL level.

Watching the Geelong game last night the players in both clubs (except maybe Leon Davis) ooze confidence with themselves and teammates. They also have big tickers and continue to present when it is their turn. At the moment there's a few serial offenders at the MFC that go missing and don't push themselves anywhere near enough. It's left to too few in particular the backline to keep us in the game.

Scully was intervied after the game last week and said that the players didn't come to play. What he really meant't to say was that SOME players didn't turn up to play.

Who are these serial offenders or those players who tease us with their ability one week but are very inconsistent and go missing too often. To name a few I would suggest Sylvia, Martin, Jones, Maloney, PJ, Dunn Spencer. Bennell also plays a very important role in the team but goes missing. I would not be too hard on him because I think he will develop into a very important player.

For us to win we need every player to have an influence on the outcome. Each week the same players seem to feature in the best players: Grimes, JMac, Green, Bruce, Bate, Frawley, Scully, Trengove, Jamar.

These players have confidence in their ability, if only a few others did as well.

[Vagg 2,439]

There is one thing for sure- Deeluded is not a sarcastic person..however many are on this site.

Um. It was MY post that was sarcastic! (I have no idea what Dee-luded was on about...)

Think I'll have another drink...!