The Problem

[drdrake 3,038]

The problem isn't our forward line our main issue for now is getting the ball inside 50m enough. The first half we went in 17 times to the Hawks 34 Double and of those 17 times we had 7 scoring shots. I think we finished the game with 44, 15 in the last quarter. You could have Jonothan Brown sitting a full forward and still not get a kick. We have 21 games left this year we will win 6-8 matches but we will have games like yesterday that we are bad.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

Well you missed my question the first time, so I figured that I'd shame you into answering it. It worked.

Do you honestly think that he wouldn't know that dropping a mark in the goalsquare, which resulted in a goal, was unacceptable? How stupid do you think he is?

I just think that you want an emotional response to make you feel like Strauss has been 'punished' for making the mistake, but I do not think that you have any idea of how your rash emotional response will help Strauss be a better player at all.

I advocate dragging a player for certain things, like ducking your head, shirking a contest and not chasing hard enough or following team rules. These are situations that a coach can correct by dragging a player. But making skill errors and dropping marks is not something that the coach will help by punishing a player. In fact, it makes it much worse because they are living in constant fear of making a mistake. They see getting a serve from the coach as a direct consequence of making a mistake, so they play it safe and don't take risks. That's the worst thing to do, especially for a young team.

You really think you shamed me in to answering your question or is this just another exercise in point scoring?

You see my response as emotive and rash, I see it as a way of showing all of the players that poor efforts like that are not acceptable. You have your opinion and I have mine I respect your right to have an opinion so what about you return the courtesy?

BTW I don't have to answer any of your questions unless i choose to do so, that's correct isn't it.

[Demon16 69]

But which 2-3 year KPF other than Bradshaw has been an achievable target and at what cost?

Bob's anaolgy works - it's currently about getting the base of the cake right. To do that we need to use our high picks and use them well.

When St. Kilda picked up the pieces for their current side it was 2000-2002. Yes they had good years not long after, but they were led mainly by then-senior players. We don't have a senior playing stock that is capable of that. So if it's taken the current St. Kilda core 6-8 years to be as good as they are, it's reasonable to think it will take something similar for us. I'm not sure many people want to acknowledge that. That is not however an excuse for dishing up yesterday's first half.

All of the other players named in this thread bar Bradsaw would have added very little. Any good KPF we could have recruited would have cost us a decent chunk of our cake base.

Once Sylvia, Jurrah. Morton, Garland are back in we will look better than yesterday - but it's going to take a long time yet to be really good.

Recruiting yet more medicore KPFs is not going to speed up the process.

I think Bob has had this thread covered.

the saints also picked up a guy from west coast named Frazer Gehrig who was a pretty handy player even though he probably wasn't going to be a part of their team at it's peak.

i'm not necessarily saying we should draft mature at this stage, in fact i would rather not, but if the only k.p.p we have to work with in our forward line is Miller, then it's going to be a long, painful climb to the top. it's time to start experimenting with our forward line, Garland once fit is my first suggestion, Cam Bruce as a mid may be better value there too.

[Sir Why You Little 34,488]

But which 2-3 year KPF other than Bradshaw has been an achievable target and at what cost?

Bob's anaolgy works - it's currently about getting the base of the cake right. To do that we need to use our high picks and use them well.

When St. Kilda picked up the pieces for their current side it was 2000-2002. Yes they had good years not long after, but they were led mainly by then-senior players. We don't have a senior playing stock that is capable of that. So if it's taken the current St. Kilda core 6-8 years to be as good as they are, it's reasonable to think it will take something similar for us. I'm not sure many people want to acknowledge that. That is not however an excuse for dishing up yesterday's first half.

All of the other players named in this thread bar Bradsaw would have added very little. Any good KPF we could have recruited would have cost us a decent chunk of our cake base.

Once Sylvia, Jurrah. Morton, Garland are back in we will look better than yesterday - but it's going to take a long time yet to be really good.

Recruiting yet more medicore KPFs is not going to speed up the process.

I think Bob has had this thread covered.

We should have kept Robbo for this year at least, he would have cost us bugger all, and if he had planted himself in the goal square 40-60 goals.

Whatever the reason we did get rid of him i would like to hear from the football club one day.

Cameron Bruce still gets a game Robbo shown the door. Bruce has never been right since he did the collar bone sadly.

We can't wait 3-5 years for Watts to be ready, We need Watts to play with a KPF and learn the ropes..i have always given miller chances but i don't think i can cope at watching 3 years of him dropping marks!!!

Maybe with the 2010 year book which i have just read..Great Read. they should have put a packet of valium in each book so at the 'G we could all just sit there and smile vacantly at the game. Yesterday was something i do not want to go through again. I have a lot of hawk supporter mates and they go in hard!!

Edited March 28, 2010 by why you little

[heartbeatstrue 57]

Get the KPF so the young kids know where to kick and how to get to the forward line.

The reason we needed someone like Robbo or Bradshaw for the next year or two, is to take the pressure from Watts. Now, the minute he's in the team, he'll be no.1 target for the best 3 opposition defenders ALL THE TIME (they're hardly likely to have to worry too much about Miller, for instance).

A smart team like Hawthorn wouldn't contemplate such an apprenticeship for a potential champion, in my view.

[Redleg 37,607]

The reason we needed someone like Robbo or Bradshaw for the next year or two, is to take the pressure from Watts. Now, the minute he's in the team, he'll be no.1 target for the best 3 opposition defenders ALL THE TIME (they're hardly likely to have to worry too much about Miller, for instance).

A smart team like Hawthorn wouldn't contemplate such an apprenticeship for a potential champion, in my view.

Agree.

I note that two rookies one from right under our nose in Silvagni and Barlow played for the Dockers tonight. Barlow had 33 possies and starred and is BT's new love child. My point is that they cost nothing yet they have mature bodies and can add something immediately. You don't need to draft babies with every single pick. I certainly agree you get the best kids with the high draft picks, but you need to mix it up with trading and drafting including rookie picks, in looking for talent/experience/maturity that will have an effect on the team and help the younger players through. We did take one mature player in MacDonald this year and I hope he gives us value.

[demoniac 1,243]

Bradshaw did not want to move to Melbourne - the city not the club - as he likes the anonymity of life outside of the fishbowl existence that AFL players in Melbourne experience. So Bradshaw was never an option even if we thought giving him the 3 year deal the Swannies did was the right thing to do given his age.

For obvious reasons Fevola was best served by getting out of Melbourne and given what Voss ponied up when he was the only club bidding for Fev he would have been quite expensive in terms of a trade if we had been in there bidding against Voss.

We are building the best young list in the AFL and in doing so undertaking the most thorough rebuild I can remember any club doing. Given the mediocre list we had at the end of the Daniher era this was the right thing to do. It has, and will continue, to cause short term pain. But it does give us our best chance of building a list that can win a flag. And thats what its all about. Who wants to just make Grand Fials and get shellacked? I'd rather have patience with our best collection of young players that I can remember and see them not only make a Grand Final but win it.

We'll have days like we did against Hawthorn but as we reduce our injury list reduces and our young playrs - like Strauss - gain experience through the year we will also have better days.

Certainly when we field a forward line this season featuring Sylvia, Jurrah, Watts, Wonaeamirri, Jetta, Martin and adding to Bate and Petterd who played on the weekend we'll be more competitive on the scoreboard. Morton and Garland are also pretty important members of our best 22 who are out and will have an impact when they return.

[MO FINE 146]

Bradshaw is probably the wrong example because of his age but I think it's quite extraordinary given a rundown of who we've drafted in the past three or four years that we haven't managed to pick up by draft or trade one strong bodied KPF. Our forward line on Saturday was a total shambles and I'm still trying to work out how we finished with 8 goals and what makes it worse is we're going backwards!

[Bring-Back-Powell 13,200]

we will win 6-8 matches

I'd say 2 wins at the most.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I'd say 2 wins at the most.

If we play like we did on Saturday I can't see how we could win that many. I struggle to see one side that is worse than us, maybe Richmond but who else?

The type of football we play is more designed to limit the loss as opposed to actually winning the game. How are we going to kick a winning score when we have inadequate forwards who are generally in the middle of the ground or in the backline anyway?

[Arrow 1,257]

Well let me ask you, do you think it was acceptable? Perhaps i have higher expectations than you. Bailey didn't have to berate him, your words he simply had to pull him off the ground and let him know what he did wrong and was unacceptable. This is AFL not TAC there are higher expectations on player here.

How about this Robbie

How many of his senior team mates did you see go up to him and help him out and say bad luck get the next one

Here is your enormous problem.

People like you come on these threads and say look what we missed out on because we drafted strauss instead of this that or the other. Its his first game we are down by 40 points and not one bloke has made a lead for him all day.

Give the kid a break and look around at some of the leaders in this team. Did you see one person lead to his kickouts all day.

All well and good to sit on your high-horse and pay the s**t out of him from your level 2 deluxe seating but this is the attitude problem with our club. Our players have no leadership and our fans have no mind

[iv'a worn smith 1,979]

For those of us who had previously dared to challenge the methods of Dean Bailey and the wisdom of extending his contract, before this season had even begun, we received a metaphorical kick in the head for speaking out, from others on this forum.

So let me start this post by getting the accepted facts out of the way.

1. We are a young and inexperienced team

2. DB inherited a list from Daniher that contained a number of very ordinary footballers and those few"stars" that we had were on the wane. As a result, clearly a clean out was needed.

3. We all need to be patient.

Clearly, these 3 factors alone mean that we were always going to be a long way off playing finals. I listened into 3AW yesterday, only because Tim Lane, who I rate as the best caller in the land, was given a gig there. Melbourne was discussed at some length and I was heartened to hear the number of Melbourne supporters who called the talkback line with some real passion. Tony Shaw and Robert Walls commented that they thought we were at least 3 years or 5 years, respectively, away from playing finals. Either scenario may well be the case. I am under no illusions in this regard.

With the above in mind, let me address what I also consider to be patent facts.

1. All AFL clubs clearly compete in the same market and the "playing field" is not always a level one.

2. Like all clubs, the MFC tell us how important membership numbers are to the viability of the club and clearly members are integral to financial stability.

3. Like all clubs, we have to fight tooth and nail for sponsors and Jimmy, his Board and Cam Schwab and his team, should be congratulated for the job they have done in this area.

In relation to Membership numbers, I suspect most, if not all on this forum are members. I have been for over 40 years. I am rusted on and will not be going anywhere. I love this footyclub. But what of the future of our membership base? What will ensure kids take up the cudgels and don the red and blue colours into the future? I would suggest we cannot rely on membership simply occurring as a result of familial lines, where parents successfully press gang their kids into becoming members. Kids always need heroes and it is evident that kids don't always follow their parents, if they can find heroes who run around in other colours. Of course, kids are notoriously impatient and subject to peer pressure.

In terms of sponsors, in this increasingly competitive age, no company wants to associate its brand with a dud. It is easy for any sponsor to find some other body which is keen to take their money and give them a bigger bang for their buck. Can we expect them to be as patient as the club expects its members to be?

I can accept these realities as part of being a business and engaging in the cut and thrust of the AFL industry, but it is becoming increasingly more cut throat.

What I can't accept is a lack of commitment. No supporter/member, who was there last Saturday can say they saw even any semblance of intensity in the contest. We saw nothing from our senior players, which suggested they were playing for and with their "mates". When the chips are down, I cannot accept senior players, who should know better, not flying the flag in front of the "rookies". Clearly, we were not good enough to win on Saturday, and I accept that, but I don't mind being beaten, where there is a contest at the footy. When a bloke puts on the red and blue jumper, I, as a member, expect (demand) 100% commitment. What I found even more galling was this was our first game for 2010, at our home ground and our "home"game. From the opening bounce, it was clear to me that we had not turned up to play. So from where or what source are these intangibles engendered?

Much has been said about the lack of an apparent game plan and I subscribe to the theory that we simply don't have one. The hemorrhaging started very early and the first reaction from the "box" was to flood the opposition's forward line. Clearly, I am not a football expert, but the much vaunted Hawthorn rolling zone was in play from the first bounce. With monotonous predictability, Hawthorn "rolled" of their half back line, switched the play to the opposite wing/flank and then sliced us right up this guts. If this game plan is so predictable, why would you not even at least make an effort to cover it.? Sure, we may not have been good enough to stem the bleeding, but we could have at least had a go at trying to negate the bleeding obvious. In the end, the score line flattered us.

So, it is official, we are a long way off the pace and patience and perseverance is the key for us long suffering supporters. Dean Bailey may well prove me wrong and I sincerely hope he does. He may well be a great developer of young talent; a mentor for youth. But is Dean Bailey a strategist and motivator on game day? I would suggest that these 2 traits are pre-requisites for any coach to be successful.

Before the season begun, his contract was extended, while, I would suggest, the jury is still out. In the cut and thrust of the business that AFL footy is today, I would suggest, despite all the good Jimmy and Cam Schwab have done, this was a blunder. As with any club, a mid-season review – something which every club will do, come the break - was the time to assess all positions.

As a bloke near me shouted to DB, as he left the ground at half time. "We pay, you get paid".

As a side note, I had to attend an auction of Saturday, so I arrived at the ground at 1:40pm. I went to collect my scarf, only to be told, they had run out. Our first game for 2010, membership drive on in earnest, our home ground and the location of our merchandising store. Go figure.

Edited March 29, 2010 by iv'a worn smith

[Dee Fan 3,247]

How about this Robbie

How many of his senior team mates did you see go up to him and help him out and say bad luck get the next one

Here is your enormous problem.

People like you come on these threads and say look what we missed out on because we drafted strauss instead of this that or the other. Its his first game we are down by 40 points and not one bloke has made a lead for him all day.

Give the kid a break and look around at some of the leaders in this team. Did you see one person lead to his kickouts all day.

All well and good to sit on your high-horse and pay the s**t out of him from your level 2 deluxe seating but this is the attitude problem with our club. Our players have no leadership and our fans have no mind

Several players went up to him and consoled him, your point?

People like me? Who are these people and when did I say we shouldn't have drafted Strauss?

I have already said the kickouts were terrible and the only leads were from deep in the pocket. Our leadership group was terrible on Saturday I don't think anyone would deny that.

I don't get paid to play from my level 2 deluxe seat I actually pay to watch the game and the players perform. They get paid to play and if they don't do their job then I, as a paying member and contributor to the club, will criticise them. If you don't like it don't read it, quite simple really.

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

How many of his senior team mates did you see go up to him and help him out and say bad luck get the next one

That's the third time someone has falsely claimed this

You'd want to actually watch what is going on

[Lost Highway 31]

How brad Green is not the captain of our side is a mystery, he is by far and away our best player and did more in the 2 and a half quarters he was on than most did in 4.

Agree.

I have argued in several threads that Green should be captain. He's the only older player who's got a clue and can deliver the ball properly. He's got guts and can take an overhead mark.

If there was any doubt that he is the best of our older brigade, yesterday should have put that to rest. But he's a bit slow for the mid-field.

Who knows what the club will do for next week? But they could do a lot worse than recast the forward line around Green and Petterd.

Dunn, Miller, Bruce and Bate should go; bring in Maric and Sylvia, and try Warnock as a tall forward, with Jamar down there at least 50% of the game. If Jetta is ready, give him a trot, or Hughes. The attack needs to be completely recast and given new instructions. How often did two blokes go up, not one crumbing? How often was the forward line crowded around the fall of the ball? I just gave up counting the number of times about 4 Hawk defenders would have all the time and space in the world to move the ball, unchallenged, out of the 50.

[Robbie57 1,990]

What I can't accept is a lack of commitment. No supporter/member, who was there last Saturday can say they saw even any semblance of intensity in the contest. We saw nothing from our senior players, which suggested they were playing for and with their "mates". When the chips are down, I cannot accept senior players, who should know better, not flying the flag in front of the "rookies". Clearly, we were not good enough to win on Saturday, and I accept that, but I don't mind being beaten, where there is acontest at the footy. When a bloke puts on the read and blue jumper, I, as a member, expect (demand) 100% commitment. What I found even more galling was this was our first game for 2010, at our home ground and our "home"game. From the opening bounce, it was clear to me that we had not turned up to play. So from where or what source are these intangibles engendered?

Much has been said about the lack of an apparent game plan and I subscribe to the theory that we simply don't have one. ...........

So, it is official, we are a long way off the pace and patience and perseverance is the key for us longer suffering supporters. Dean Bailey may well prove me wrong and I sincerely hope he does. He may well be a great developor of young talent; a mentor for youth. But is Dean Bailey a strategist and motivator on game day? I would suggest that these 2 traits are pre-requisites for any coach to be successful.

Before the season begun, his contract was extended, while, I would suggest, the jury is still out. In the cut and thrust of the business that AFL footy is today, I would suggest, despite all the good Jimmy and Cam Schwab have done, this was a blunder. As with any club, a mid-season review – something which every club will do, come the break - was the time to assess all positions.

As a bloke near me shouted to DB, as he left the ground at half time. "We pay, you get paid".

I was prepared to believe. I still am but having to endure the first half of the game on Saturday was humiliating. Dean Bailey it was totally unacceptable. My best mates son was close to tears.

I live interstate and almost flew down for the game. Thankfully the GP meant no flights. The shots of the Demon faithful in the crowd were painful to watch even a couple of little nippers looked sad. Bailey should watch that over and over and ask himself am I good enough? Nice bloke and says the right things but is he good enough? I watched carefully and there is very little by way of a plan. Bailey please please make me look foolish in the coming weeks.

On the TV there was no vision of him being tormented or getting into the players ( I truly hope I just missed it but I doubt it.)

In contrast on Saturday night ¾ time in the Swans match Roos strides out onto the ground approaches the playing group who dropped a 20 point bundle and says "shithouse [censored] shithouse" Points out what they didn't do and walks away he then turns back to them "not good enough just shithouse."

Now the positives. Brad Green wins the Jim Stynes award for inspiration. Guts.

Scully and Trengove looked lost in the first half but undeterred they played good footy in the second half as did Grimes..

Jordie McKenzie well done love his style. Bennell needs to back himself and mark a little tighter. Thought Rivers showed up. The much maligned Miller doesn't do enough but when moved to CHF looked better, lets just play him there and let him hit up and pass off. Frawley good but patchy same with Warnock. Spencer needs to play every week until he stops looking dazed by it all. Big men take time and game play in my view.

Jamar was great, kept at it all day. Kicked a much needed goal. Well done. Can our midfield now support him please.

Where were our senior players trapping the ball in the mid field to stop the rebound ? Same with the forwards if they cant kick a goal at least trap it down there.

We need some honest hard work in the midfield, please. I hate losing but at least make me feel you gave your all

[Dee Fan 3,247]

I live interstate and almost flew down for the game. Thankfully the GP meant no flights. The shots of the Demon faithful in the crowd were painful to watch even a couple of little nippers looked sad.

It was strangely quiet at the game I think most of our supporters were in shock after the first ten minutes, there was no atmosphere at all, it was like the Casey practice game. Even the Hawks Supporters were just sitting the game watching their team treat our with absolute contempt.

I have never seen a side under less pressure than Hawthorn on Saturday.

[Fat Tony 4,409]

Sure we need a key forward, but why would a player at the end of their career (like Bradshaw, Fevola or Hall) want to come to a bottom club like Melbourne anyway? I know we could have taken Bradshaw in the pre-season draft, but he wanted too many years at too high a price given his age and back injuries.

While I think our broad long-term strategy post 2007 was correct, I think it could have been much better implemented. In my opinion the current state of our list indicates that the Bailey regime does not have the conviction or judgement required to make an early call whether or not fringe players will or won’t make it – or they overrate their ability to develop players and believe that they can turn water into wine.

A case in point is Jake Spencer. He is not a good enough athlete and is just plain too unco for AFL, yet it seems that the regime rate him.

Another case in point is the length of contracts offered to Newton, Meeson, Dunn and Bell. These were far too generous given there accomplishments at the time and we are paying for it now. (I was disappointed we re-signed Newton at all after 2008 – let alone for two years.)

Such decisions put significant doubt in my mind about the management of the club.

[Range Rover 1,935]

A case in point is Jake Spencer. He is not a good enough athlete and is just plain too unco for AFL, yet it seems that the regime rate him.

How can they possibly rate Jake Spencer? It beggars belief. It really does.

[Dee Fan 3,247]

How can they possibly rate Jake Spencer? It beggars belief. It really does.

I think that everyone's being a bit hard on Spencer, I feel sorry for him. Everyone knows that Ruckmen take a long time to develop and he is only 20, he is clearly out of his depth at the moment and should be at Casey. He did one good thing on Saturday that made me think he may have a future, that intercept and pass was very good.

[Robbie57 1,990]

How can they possibly rate Jake Spencer? It beggars belief. It really does.

I really think big men can take time in AFl the stars being the exception. Jolly got better with time. So have many others.

He looked like a stunned mullet but he may be ok I reckon we invest in him and see.

[Redleg 37,607]

I think that everyone's being a bit hard on Spencer, I feel sorry for him. Everyone knows that Ruckmen take a long time to develop and he is only 20, he is clearly out of his depth at the moment and should be at Casey. He did one good thing on Saturday that made me think he may have a future, that intercept and pass was very good.

Agree. The problem I see is at the centre bounce his timing is completely off. He ends up standing on the ground while his opponent is in the air near the ball. He needs a lot of work in that area. He also is not a good mark at the moment and needs work there as well. However he is big, raw, willing and young. His co-ordination will improve and he has plenty of time to prove himself.

[Keyser Söze 0]

Agree. The problem I see is at the centre bounce his timing is completely off. He ends up standing on the ground while his opponent is in the air near the ball. He needs a lot of work in that area. He also is not a good mark at the moment and needs work there as well. However he is big, raw, willing and young. His co-ordination will improve and he has plenty of time to prove himself.

Does anyone remember a young raw Jamar..?

[Curry & Beer 5,444]

It's hard to believe we have

PJ

Martin

Meesen

Spencer

Gawn

Fitzpatrick

and precisely none of them look anywhere near becoming a decent ruckman any time soon

[Dee Fan 3,247]

It's hard to believe we have

PJ

Martin

Meesen

Spencer

Gawn

Fitzpatrick

and precisely none of them look anywhere near becoming a decent ruckman any time soon

PJ - Not physical enough, doesn't impose himself

Martin - Not Physical enough to handle the crash bash of the ruck

Meesen - Showed a bit before he went down with injury - He might be ok if we can get him fit

Spencer - Too young and raw at the moment

Gawn - Same as Spencer

Fitzpatrick - Same as Spencer

Other Clubs can cope with one pure Ruckman and another athletic tall to help out, we don't have a Ryder or anyone like that. Someone like Miller should take the Bull by the horns and try to fit that role, God knows he can't play anywhere else.