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I think Jones will play a few games, but I doubt that he'll be on the list in 2017. While his kicking isn't great, what I do like about him is his pace, which is something that we have struggled with in recent times. Roos seemed to make his intentions with Terlich pretty clear in 2015; I doubt he'll get a game. I liked that he showed desire and competitiveness a few years ago when we needed it most, but the fact of the matter is that he just doesn't have the ability. JKH is a victim of his own success. He impressed in his first season, but suffered from the second year blues in 2015. Because of his early performances, some posters seem to forget that he is only 20, was selected late in the draft, has already played 22 games despite his size, and struggled a bit with injury and being the sub this past season. He broke into the team for our last match of the season, and showed glimpses of what he's capable of. On top of all that, he's contracted until the end of 2017. I would say that he has exceeded expectations so far. Give him a break.

On Monday 14th December I ventured down to the paddock to record some images of the Dees training as I'm want to do from time to time and posted around 100 photographs of the Dees at work. To post the 100 pictures I take around 500 pictures and share what I consider to be a representative cover of the boys effort on the day. You don't see every frame that I take. I thought that because we are now in a bit of a hiatus with the cub shut down till next year that I would spend I bit of time exploring one of my passions (photography) examining the result of my afternoons work and sharing an extended view of what I see at training covering one of my other passions (The Dees).. I'll go through the full 500 shot gallery and pick selected shots and sequences over the next couple of weeks until the boys are back in town. You'll see shots you have already seen in the original post but they will be in context with other shots. If you have no interest in this, have a lovely Christmas and I'll see you in the new year. For all of the rest of you, the first small set is of the big Gawn. Two of the shots were in the original post. Take 1 : The big GawnStar ==>https://six6six.smugmug.com/Monday-take-1/n-VjjkJf Take 2 : The Truck ==> http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-KXgjvb Take 3 : Forgotten and dedicated #2 ==> http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-TGsdp6 . Good Luck Jack. We are all on your side Take 4 : Christmas with the kids ==> http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-GPKdqr Take 5 : Boxing Day ==> https://six6six.smugmug.com/Monday-Take-5/n-h4LbMb Take 6 : Who's the cat in green? => http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-TBqQ45 Take 7 : Gotcha => https://six6six.smugmug.com/Monday-Take-7/n-FhDcXL Take 8: Best of the rest => https://six6six.smugmug.com/Monday-Take-8/n-VtHMMQ ******************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** Original Gallery ==> http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-vWmhGZ

all dreamtime stuff

One of the worst posts i have read

I think right at this moment these two and probably Michie are on their last legs as AFL players and know it, having said that it's a great sign on where the club is at, 3 seasons ago they were third and fourth in our best and fairest... now they're probably the last two on the list..

Not much good can really come from this thread. You don't want to be disrespectful to guys who have worn the jumper, but clearly if these two are getting games next season, things aren't entirely going to plan. It's safe to say we've seen the best of them. Jones is now 28. It is in all likelihood their last season.

I hope that 2016 will be his best season. He is our best kick for goal and best goal assist. With better players around him, he could become a very handy player for us, especially as the 3rd or 4th tall in the forward line. His mobility could be a big asset.

Joe was never one to back away from a battle and it looks like he's going as far as he can with this one. A fascinating character in Melbourne's history. He took the opportunity to lead the fight against the merger in 1996 when approached by Brian Dixon. Whilst the official result voted in favour of the merger many argue there were such anomalies in the count we (Joe) would have challenged it in court had the Hawks not rejected the proposal and saved our bacon. I remember after the vote feeling that Joe had the opportunity to galvanize our club which he did for a time. He appointed Neale Daniher and we had some fantastic times under his leadership but by 2001 with many influential (and normal) supporters and members of his own Board dissatisfied with his leadership it all hit the fan. Joe threatened a spill of the Board mid season but thankfully that was averted and he lost the subsequent election battle with Szondy, who I backed, and who was to turn out to be the worst Chairman in recent times. Joe put a lot of money into the club but sadly his style was confrontational and controversial with his many battles with the AFL doing little to help our cause. He decided to expose our salary cap rorts (overseen by guess who - Cam Schwab) when the AFL had no interest in them causing many to question his motives. He exposed them by getting his own lawyers to audit our payments but the auditors report, as I understand it, was never tabled with the Board and his Board were unaware that he was going to have a news conference exposing the breaches. I think I'm right in saying all this but perhaps either Redleg or WJ would like to comment as I think at the time they were quite close to Joe. Of course it's all water under the bridge but as Whispering Jack has said on so many occasions - if you ignore the lessons of history you are prone to repeat them. I still believe that our greatest failing has been having Chairmen who did not necessarily have MFC as their primary motive for holding the position. Joe arguably led the rest of the field in this respect but he was a larger than life character who certainly made life interesting and promoted our club. Anyway thankfully after many years the AFL has taken control and we have a fantastic CEO and a Board who know their role and I think we can be as confident in our future now as at any time since the AFL was formed.

I am always happy to give him a break. Why? Because he is a good bloke, who tries hard and is a good club man. If he isn't up to it, the way we'd like him to be, he will get repaved when better players take his spot. He isn't commanding crazy high salary. He isn't settong a poor off field example for others. He isn't wasting his talent by not traininf hard or by partying. When Watts stops getting a game this team will have seriously improved. Until then he offers a better on field option than many other available options while at the same time offering off field value. Why the hate?

I don't want him at the club. He bashes women. He is a scumbag. NO!

Think it's more a case of "keep quiet about the injections of substances that we now don't know what they were or have any records of" that makes it very suspicious in terms of cheating. In fact I'd say people should be in jail for that.

Kicked 10 from 16 shots. That's a pretty reasonable percentage. But don't let using the full stat ruin your shallow analysis.

I am pretty level headed about my football and whilst I have passion, footy is a part of my life amongst other things and I move on pretty quickly. I am not sure why but that little rodent still upsets me. Not because he took the money ( good on him I say), not because he is gone ( we did much better out of the deal) but because, as you said he could have fudged the leaving scenario but went outright lies and deception.

I think you raise a fair point . I do not write them off as many do . Terlich is a fearless attacking defender who marks well. He is not afraid to run with the ball and has pace. He makes kicking errors. I think he was B o G in a SANFL GF jones may find it harder to get a game as an on baller playing a defensive role on the forward line as he did several times this year. Again, he is prone to kicking errors. But he never throws in the towel and gives it his absolute best shot. I do think Terlich has more natural ability to suggest that these two are hopeless is inane nonsense. They are very useful backups in a young squad

Yeah that downhill slide that took us to a Grand Final....

Jack will be a much better player in a better team with a stronger midfield. He will show his worth as he gets better players around him He is not the saviour we were sold. But he is a very talented player and will help us reach finals, and win a few besides I wish him the best

Living in Sydney this is gold six6six. Thank you very much for doing this, it is appreciated probably more than you realise. Have a great Christmas and a safe and happy New Year. and keep clicking please.

He is a human highlights reel who is up there with Flower, Farmer, Jakovich and the Ox for pure natural talent. There was a purity about his football that is rarely seen and I feel privileged to have had him at the Dees for the short time he was able to give.. But he is not suited to the social and psychological demands of AFL standard footy, or the pressures of full-time suburban life. He has major cultural/moral clash issues all mixed together with alcohol and violence. I hope he can get back to playing footy in NT and that he enjoys life and footy again. I hope he can find sobriety, freedom from rage and acts of violence, and a way forward to find his place in the world again.

You can put away the keyboard for the rest of 2015 dc. You will not type better than that one.

Draft him now! Kick the ball inside forward 50 and he will beat his opponent. FOOTY CAN BE THAT SIMPLE!! The better player wins the ball and kicks the goal. Liam is that better player. Boy we had a poor midfield when he was playing yet he still kicked more goals than Hogan did in his first 20 games. Would kick 40+ this year without thinking about it - such is his talent. Apparently he is very 'prison fit' at the moment (skills/weights/no booze). The excruciating pseudo professionalism of the AFL (rewarding GPS data and running patterns over the ability to influence games for example) means that he won't get another shot without being put through torturous non-footy hurdles. But if someone showed some belief in a genuine match winner he would be fine and train the house down I'm sure. Plant him in the F50, spot him up on leads (an old school Ablett Senior role) and he would bolt into AA as a 27 year old I believe. Even if his player ran off him a couple of times, it would be a net 4-5 goal/assists gain per game having him in the team. Won't happen, but one can dream...

Fair enough. You can only judge players against other players from their own era. Flower is named on the wing in every "best of" team of the 1980's and has been named on the wing in some from the 1970's. In my opinion he was without peer as a wingman in his era. He was a better footballer than Keith Greig. Flower kicked 315 goals, Grieg kicked 47. To this day it annoys me that Flower didn't take Greig's place on the wing in the TOC. By the way, I'm not just judging them on goals kicked, but overall skill and ability. You wouldn't see a better mark for their size than Flower. And no-one sold candy like Flower. Craig Bradley, Dipper, Hawkins and others rated him the best they played against. He's not in the same stratosphere as Matthews, Whitten and Carey, but he's definitely worthy of superstar status and sits comfortably alongside anyone the next rung below. Flower wasn't a key forward, so it was virtually impossible to have that type of impact, and we must remember that the game was played differently in those days. It's also worth bearing in mind how hard it is to play in a crap side. It is FAR more difficult. Imagine how Flower would be remembered if he was surrounded by quality for the bulk of his career. Flower and Peter Matera are the two best wingmen I've seen.

Don't confuse a comeback to playing footy with a comeback to AFL footy. Good luck on the former - might help fix him up. The latter would be a miracle needing divine intervention.

I actually think that's his biggest asset, and why I think he is the perfect player to slot in with Hogan and Garlett as a full time forward.

Was also third at the club for goal assists.

If he could seriously get himself mentally and physically right and prove that he has left his past behind i would absolutely jump at him.. One of the most naturally talented players i have ever seen.

my mentor told me that sometimes people get the truth confused with opinion.

A couple of my most influential mentors always taught me, "If you haven't anything nice to say, say nothing at all." Does it really matter that much about Jack with all these thousands of posts of hand wringing? He is much talked about because he is a no.1 pick that arguably has or hasn't lived up to expectations. He's a bloke who was unfortunately tagged a great hope for our club very early on - rightly or wrongly. At a club that was deprived of strong leadership on and off the field in his introduction to AFL football. One which arguably was neglectful or lacking in development. The strengthening of the list is now evident, let's see how he goes among a stronger list. Instead of the go-to man we probably all envisaged back in '09, he may be a versatile go-to man for the coach that will be looking for "check-mate" in games to get a positional advantage and help win us games. He creates interest because he has value we want to extract, and he has lasted this far. As frustrating as it has been for clearly many, Jack's journey in AFL football is not finished and one we all follow with great interest. Whether he was or wasn't put on the table in October is now irrelevant for 2016. He is well liked among the playing list and the coaching group indeed see his value. When he's within 45-50m of goal with the ball in his hands, there's not many on the list you'd want lining up for goal, confident of slotting the goal to seal a finals win. Watts would be one.

I try to stop caring so much about Watts but the reality is there are so many factors that mean he'll never be treated like any other player. Number 1 pick Incredibly likeable team mate and club man Does things that other players can't and doesn't do things that most players can and are expected to do Cops it in the media The strangest thing now is that he's one of the more senior players and still one of the most recognisable players at the club. I'll always try to judge him by current form and on that he had a slow start and end to the year surrounding a pretty decent patch of form in the middle where he looked like a genuine AFL footballer for probably the longest stretch of his career. My hope is the club treats him as just another player and if that means dropping him he's dropped instead of being afraid of the public fall out. For too long I think we tried to stop bad press about him by not dropping him and instead shuffling his position. By now we surely know he's a half forward flanker who can rotate on to a wing for stints and that's about it. He's not going to play down back, he's not playing on the ball, in the ruck, key forward or as a crumber. If he's best 22 to pick him, if he's not then give him the chance to go back to Casey and work on his game like any normal player. In some ways he's a bit like Shaun Marsh. Maybe the solution is playing against the Windies! But otherwise we've got to try and treat him like any other player and drop him and pick him and position him without fear of failure.

He's the only MFC person in my lifetime who has stood up to the AFL and the power clubs of the game and for that I'll always have a spot in my heart for him. He helped make us relevant and refused to let us be the pushover we have so often been.

That's exactly what they're trying to argue in the horse racing/cobalt case that's going on as we speak. "We didn't mean to do it, and it's not performance enhancing anyway." Both points and their rebuttal are old ground that I won't go over, but the racing people have banned cobalt because they suspect it may be performance enhancing. Just like AOD-9604 is on the WADA S0 list because it may be performance enhancing. If the racing people want to ban hay, then they can ban hay. If you the trainer don't like it, lobby to get the rule changed. But don't feed your horses hay in the meantime and argue that the rule is wrong. If the AFL ban oranges at half time, don't eat oranges. And if you do, don't front up to the tribunal arguing that the rule is wrong. Do that elsewhere, while not eating oranges.

Robbie was Victoria's "only clear winner" in the first State of Origin game Some interesting stats and names from the same game: Another BOG for Flower in the Vics win over WA in 1980. Flower's teammates that day included Leigh Matthews, Kevin Bartlett, Wayne Schimmelbusch, Keith Greig, Southby, Templeton, Garry Wilson, Tim Watson and Bruce Doull. Plus stats of the match: Flower was Vic's best again... 1983 State of Origin South Australia 26.16.172 d Victoria 17.14.116 Goals - SA: Lindner 5, Bradley, Kernahan, Motley 3, Naley, Aish, Platten, Schneebichler 2, Thomas, Copping, McAdam. Vic: Flower 4, Daniher, Wilson 3, Madden 2, Smith, Marcou, Cunningham, Ashman, Hawker. Best - SA: Aish, Bradley, Motley, Giles, Craig, Lindner, Thomas, Rendell. Vic: Flower, Daniher, Serafini, Wilson, Rowlings, Madden. Just pipped by Southby in this one... 1980 State of Origin Victoria 15.12.102 d South Australia 12.13.85 Goals - Vic: Templeton, Bartlett 3, Moncrieff, Flower, Jess 2, Sheldon, Raines, Turner. SA: Roberts 4, McSporran 2, Cornes, Heinrich, Davies, Taylor, Phillips, James.. Best - Vic: Southby, Flower, Lee, Nankervis, Raines, Turner. SA: Cornes, Davies, phillips, McSporran, Kuhlmann, Williams. I hope some enjoy the names and memories. And remember, this was the best against the best. Flower shone. Flower was a superstar.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=586IkN-l5Ok Those one handers though...

Very easy to mistake opinion for truth. A mistake many people make, especially here on DL.

One more thing, just to make things clear. Just because I and others moved on and I don't give a stuff about him anymore and couldn't care less of something that happened a few years ago now, doesn't mean I or others have necessarily forgiven him.

I was too young to appreciate him fully - I only remember glimpses of his 87 season but he was still my hero as a little kid and I proudly wore the number 2 on my back as a 4-5 year old. All I really have to go on are those youtube clips and the odd state game I can get my hands on.

you forgot the all important "trashed"

Wealth acquired entirely ethically and legally, I'm sure.

In the absence of facts, conjecture is a pretty handy back up.

Once he has reached his goal of Carlton playing every Friday night!

Don't get me wrong - I am very happy that he has gone somewhere else - is he still playing AFL? We have done incredibly well out of his departure. But, I just despise him and cannot forgive him for lying to a dying great of our club, of the game, when he could and should have done what others have, and obfuscated. Others may choose to forgive but I cannot and will not.

Very likeable guy whose faults are not character flaws but traits of temperament. He genuinely loves the club and wants to succeed and I still feel he can be an important part of our future especially with more grunt players around him.

Was thinking you could get twice the laughs! The other link is embedded in the article of the one I posted You have pointed out the areas where they are completely neive as to why the code is the way it is. There are very good reasons for it and it actually relatively easy to live within the code, hence thousands of athletes manage to do it.

Agreed. Lets make it keep the Captain and have one pick pre draft...we can't let Taylor Harris play for anyone else. She is also a 'must keep' in my book.

Fantastic stuff Pro! Flower would have stood rightfully on the stage with any player to play in the modern era. As well as his brilliance he was versatile. Perhaps it was in a game against WA above but in the last quarter and with the game in the balance Victoria had no key position forwards and Flower was moved to CHF where he was opposed to Ross Glendinning. He won the match for the Vics taking Glendinning apart. He was a superstar and anyone who doesn't think it didn't see his career. I saw much of it. I started going to the footy every week where possible from about 1970 onward and reckon I saw him play on 200 or more occasions. He is clearly the best player I've seen in red and blue and the only players who come anywhere near having his level of skill and match day influence were a pre knee David Schwarz and the fruit cake who was Allen Jakovich. As good as players like Neitz, Lyon and Stynes were they didn't hold a candle to Flower.

Hmm, Pro Dee's post a few above this one pretty much nails it. Flower was on a different level to the other players during a normal VFL (AFL) match. When you stuck him in State of Origin format he was still on a different level. As PD mentioned when the best played the best he was invariably BOG or close to it. Flower was a superstar

Not on this thread. Only one fruit is the gospel on this site.

Flower was a genuine superstar of the game and it's only those that either weren't born or were primary school kids when he retired that would even question his status. It was a different era with no AFL and 12 Victorian teams. At times in his career Flower was considered the best player in the league, which is why he captained his state. He was invariably named best aground or in the "best" in winning teams for the Big V. Imo, Flower should have been named on the wing in the team of the 20th century, but the fact that he was considered in the 4 for that position (along with Peter Matera) is testament to his standing. Consider that again for one moment - Flower was considered in the best 4 wingman in 100 years of footy when footy was all about positional play. Flower was inarguably the greatest goal kicking wingman of all time (40 goals from a wing one year) and in my view should have made that team. If you're not overly familiar with Flower it's probably best that you don't posit an opinion.