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I guess after making the epic journey down to Casey yesterday I should put in my 2 cents worth. The obvious difference in the match to me was skill. Hawks players had the confidence that their team mate would be able to hit a target, be there for support, make good position or a good contest. I saw this a little in the Geelong match, but the Melbourne players would handall too much, break under pressure and turnover the ball. Delivery by foot was also a little haphazard. It seems to be a confidence issue manifested in poor skills, probably a noticeable observation for most. Again, in the Geelong match, frequently there'd be generally one player going up for the contest and a player waiting to crumb, yesterday I saw too many contests of old where 2 Dees would go for the same mark. Lack of confidence, lack of communication, just bad habits I guess. Kennedy-Harris I believe was a sub (along with Georgio and Viney), and only came on in the second half. His efforts where noticeable and certainly added a lot of energy to our performance when he was on. I'd be very surprised if he didn't play in the 1st round. It's hard to knock Viney's performance, he was definitely giving it everything, just needs a bit more composure with his disposal. As has been mentioned by previous posters, I also noticed Watts getting into good positions on numerous occasions, but was largely ignored for his efforts. Had a few clangers too. I was under the impression that Strauss and Watts were some of our better kicks, but it didn't seem to stop them from turning over the ball (although, who didn't!) Michie, Vince, Tyson and Cross seemed to do reasonably well. I'd hate to think how we'd be without that influx of midfielders. Not feeling particularly positive about the whole experience, 8 hours round trip, delayed in traffic and got there late, partway through the second quarter when the score was already starting to blow out. But then again, it's never been easy being a Melbourne supporter has it? Random observations: It's hard not to feel some admiration for Roughy, not only was he kicking a bag and generally making life miserable for the Dees, but he also found time to replace divets in the field and fetch the ball for the umpires. Delta Goodrem made an appearance at the game. And no, I'm not proud that I noticed she was there.

Saw the first half two-sixths of this game. Melbourne listed players that suited up were: Bail, Barry, Clisby, Evans, Hunt, Jetta, Kennedy-Harris, Kent, King, Nicholson, Salem and Viney. I assume that given they'd already played a partial game in the curtain raiser, Viney and JKH would play limited time. Of what I did see, wow Box Hill's forward line was like a land of the giants (not the GWS variety), Ceglar and Lowden at both 204cm and Grimley at 199 were all rotating through the middle and up forward causing huge headaches for a drastically undersized Casey back 6, that generally consisted of Jetta, Nicholson, Barry, Clisby and Hunt. Didn't know many of the Casey players without a record other than Gent, Best, Petropolous and Smith. If Panozza was playing I didn't notice him, as a young stringy beanpole was wearing his regular #1 guernsey. Of the Demons: Bail was extremely busy off half back, creating run and drive. Barry was busy and getting a bit more of the ball than in the past, but somewhat wasteful. Clisby, by virtue of the sheer number of inside 50s being generated by Box Hill (despite the scoreline being virtually even) was getting a ton of posessions and generally using them well. Could be a chance to leapfrog Strauss. Evans was only just going, didn't have much impact. Hunt did a couple of nice things from not many touches but was encouraged at times by his surrounding teammates which was good to see. Jetta was pretty handy, we know he loves the tough stuff and thought he was quite good at taking on the play. JKH was an absolute livewire, he was getting involved at both ends of the ground. already looks a step above this level. Kent was pretty decent on a half forward flank, his foot skills stood out. I assume this is his first run for the year so he'll be better for it. King was pushed around by the bigger bodied aforementioned Hawks talls had no impact whatsover. Nicho was Nicho. We had a break with 2 on 1 where the chip came over the top, instead of letting the player running with the flight take the ball, continue his momentum and bang it into the square, Nicho cannoned into him trying in vain to mark with zero awareness, and the ball was turned over. Salem racked up a few touches drifting down to the half back line from his HFF position, and didnt waste one, but they were only a few. Looks classy but a bit of a way off. Pleasantly surprised at his size already this is the first I have seen of him. Viney was good, overdid things on a couple of occasions, but his workrate means he will dominate clinches at this level. One more game for Casey next week could give him a chance of being selected for Round 1. Of course, I only saw 1/3rd of the overall game, so these assesments could change drastically in the ensuing sixths, but gives a small glimpse. Casey will I think struggle to kick goals this year if Tim Smith is our only big forward. He did play very well early on, but is the kind of player that needs to complement the AFL depth rather than be the focal point. I assume Pedersen will assist for much of this work. No sign of Troy Davis today.

As Ross Lyon says."anywhere,anytime". I once had a girlfriend who was the same.

You are just plain WRONG. Do you even watch the games? Toumpas running one way is blatant bull___t. Get the hard ball son! That is a job any hack can do. Give me skill and class like Toump's any day. His kicking is sublime. look how many of us envy the Hawks disposal skills, and you wanted to draft another donkey to go fetch when you can get them anywhere. How would you have coped with getting your head knocked off? His form against the Tiges was good in the second half. Apart from 1 glaringly bad kick across goal in the Geelong game, tell me where he was poor. Comparisons to Ollie are for losers. Both kids had no say in where they ended up. Ollie looked like death warmed up on Draft night whereas Jimmy was ecstatic to come to our career destroying club. Look at the difference in development of our young guys and look at what Hinkley and Kochie are doing! Get over it. Wines is at Pt Adelaide and Toump is here. I think I know where I would have preferred to be drafted to. Typing away at a keyboard and sending your venom is not palatable to any of us. Give it a rest man. If you want to "see something, anything" try opening your eyes.

I can only imagine your speaking with tongue in cheek..... none were really any good

I think it's time we take note of the lesson of Watts and apply it to Toumpas. Ie. it's time for Jimmy to play a stretch of VFL and become and inside and out VFL midfielder who wins contested ball, tackles etc. He did a few nice things but also a lot of running up and down on the spot unable to get in to the game (as most forwards can't in a team like the one yesterday). It's going to suck seeing Bail and Byrnes play over Toumpas when they butcher the ball but come the second half of the year Toumpas will be much better for it. Watts. I'm at a loss with him. I just don't understand where his head is at. He picked up the ball and got slammed in tackles a few times yesterday. Yet he never seems to respond with what I think is the natural response and the one I always have playing footy. Ie. If I get caught and bumped around a bit I start going harder and more direct. I'm a rubbish footballer playing in the reserves but at least when things aren't working I try and have a dip.

Reading DemonDave and KC on the Casey thread it brought home the fact how the Hawks have a very small injury list (Lake, Schoenmakers and perhaps one or two others) whereas while we have an equally small official injury list we have half a dozen others who apparently aren't injured but are also not quite ready to play football or being rested according to the spin we're getting from the club. Most of our tall players seem to have disappeared into some sort of Southern Hemisphere Bermuda Triangle and who knows when we're ever going to see them play again? The result in terms of yesterday's performance and without wanting to make excuses for injuries (but as RDB called them "explanations") was rather devastating in terms of what we saw out on the ground and on the scoreboard. I suspect that it didn't matter all that much to Paul Roos whether the loss was 50, 75 or 110 points because we seemed to be playing the game without a half forward line (and IMO, you need to win at CHF if you're going to do any good so if you have nothing there then you're cactus). I'm sure that when we take St. Kilda on in much different circumstances and conditions we'll have a much better forward/following structure even if we still don't have Jamar, Gawn, Hogan, Dawes, Garland and Clark back. At some stage during the year, the fog will lift over that Bermuda Triangle and we might have a full side which will make the coach's job a lot easier. In the meantime, despite yesterday's setback, our midfield is slowly building and that's important for the medium and long term of this team.

My impression from this thread is that the Chicken Littles are in the minority. I think most understand this isn't a surprising result, albeit a slightly disappointing one. I'm still confident we can and should get a win in Round 1.

Also of interest possibly. While sitting on the grassy knoll, Alex Georgiou came out and sat with a group of friends a few feet away. While he was chatting, a little boy walked up and stood staring intently at him for about 30 seconds, looking very much like a hunting dog on point before walking up and having the following conversation: Random Kid - "are you a player?" AG - "yes I am" RK - "What's your name" AG - Alex" RK - "Alex what?" AG - "Georgiou" RK - (after a pause for thought) "Can you sign my ball?" AG - "Sure"

We're in trouble if Byrnes is getting a game round 1.

I've stated ad nauseum that I don't see Watts as a quality mid and nothing thus far has changed my mind. He and Toumpas are a mile off against quality sides. Their lack of physicality is pronounced. It's still early days and many Demonlanders get very upset by these sorts of opinions, but not taking Wines could end up one of this clubs biggest blunders. It is too early, but the signs are most definitely there.

I've decided to run with the, I didn't see it, therefore it didn't happen approach.

I was there yesterday and was pretty upset. What we can take is it's not gonna be the last time that we're put to the slaughter by a side this year. We were alright for the first quarter in terms of possession quantity/quality, but from then we were just a lost cause. Numerous times our entire 18 were in their defensive half and since we gave up on a forward line the Hawks just toyed with us and had Luke Hodge as a singular guarding defender and put Gibson forward. I don't think it was quite as devastating as some performances last year, but it had a similar feel. The Hawks are just a masterful side who we are nowhere near in getting close to in a head to head. They just play a possession style so much better and know where to run and who to run with. Plus they have a plethora of forward options. They made our midfield look shabby again too. Not sure about stats, were stats of the game posted anywhere/counted? Vince was very quiet after quarter time as were most. Grimes and Frawley were solid in defence, which was a bit consoling. Most players had pitiful disposal. N.Jones was probably our best mid. By the way, I could do without seeing Shannon Byrnes play. I would've rather seen Evans play or JKH or Viney starting the game. I can't see what value he adds to the team and was hugely disappointing last year and regularly makes blunders

You cannot guess BBP?

Nah They were just crap selections from day1

Really happy to have Jimmy at the club.

Even if Harris never plays another Test, I think he'll be able to look back pretty satisfied with his work in the international arena.

You can do what you wish. This club has made some shocking recruitment decisions over the past 5 years, many believe a lot longer. Jimmy has shown very little to get excited about so far. Sadly that is a fact. I wanted to see best mates Jack Viney & Ollie Wines play together. It didn't happen. I continue to be very annoyed.....

Interesting talking to an Essendon supporter yesterday spinning the story that ASADA have stuffed up etc. his point was that even a murder trial doesn't run this long. My point was that it's not a trial, it's an investigation and some murder investigations last many years. Too many people, including Essendon supporting journo's have some fixation on the time the investigation is taking. I know it would be good to have everything wrapped up so we can get on with the new season but life doesn't work that way. Not everything can be packaged up neatly.

Did anyone actually stay for the Casey game? Would love to know how Salem and rest of the young kids went.

Prostitution is one of the world's oldest professions. Embrace it.

I hope Freeman is not a better player than Salem. This place will explode.

I wish it was Mute. I'm sick of hearing about it.

we will only stop playing there when we can afford to do so. a guaranteed bye after each game up there would be great, but hard to arrange.

What about the hidings every other week, to cold, to hot, to overcast, boys don't like Etihad, boys don't like being interstate away from Teddy, fellas dunna come ready to play.

We have now played three finalists actually. The Tiges, cats and hawks.

Just watched Roosy's post match press conference. I feel better Please watch before contemplating suicide.

Jimmy Toumpas is a born leader, Captain of the SA under 18's had been playing against men for 2 years before we drafted him and winning games in the SANFL, he was rated higher than wines by alot of recruiters and he is still very young i have absolutely no issue with the decision to draft him over wines, i think he will be a great player for us, today he was outclassed by better opposition as was most of our side.

An expected result Loving all the meltdowns LOL

That is not what worries me. What worries me is getting those forwards back into the team. Injuries have just killed any chance to improve structure in the last few years.

My world is back to normal - For a while there,I was getting excited and optimistic about footy!

Yes, I will. Does that mean we can't have opinions now, notwithstanding the vagaries this early on ?

The more I think about the playing of the sympathy card for the Essendon players, the more it riles me. Let's take a different tack on the subject and reprise the Wade Lees case - VFL player Wade Lees cops 18-month ban for importing performance-enhancing drugs. One of the arguments made for Lees was that, as a VFL player who received no education on how to deal with supplements and any other substances which might lead a sportsperson to be charged with anti doping violations, he deserved some consideration. His plea fell on deaf ears. Now consider Lees' AFL counterparts at Essendon who, like all AFL players receive regular advice and education on drug use. Confronted with waiver forms that detail a number of supplements that don't sound like your regular vitamins to me, their education should have alerted them to the potential peril they were facing. Did not one of them take the trouble to check the nature of the substances they were taking? That some of those things had not yet been tested for human consumption or that some were human growth hormones? Sorry, but I have no sympathy for these clowns - they deserve what should be coming to them and any whitewash by officialdom of this sordid affair would be absolutely reprehensible and an insult to those athletes and officials worldwide who strive to keep the sport clean.

It's easy to forget the Toiges were finalists... we're so used to them being 9th

A team with 2 wins vs a premiership team with seasoned players.... A team culture & development screwed over the last 5+ yrs A team that was coached (last 2 yrs)by having a stake driven thru it Roos & Co are repairing minds & developing players which will take more than just 2 practice games

When anything comes out of PR's mouth it sound a hell of a lot better than coming out of a no name apprentice coach. "We know where we're at" means we know we are bad but r working on it whereas "I didn't see that coming" means I have no idea what I am doing and may have to run or turn up to training. We r in good hands with PR and that does provide comfort on days like today.

playing 2 finalists was meant to show how far we need to go, we did ok against geelong and not so well against the hawks. They probably had their best list while we were still missing a few. They have a settled lineup with a team game plan they have been playing for years while we are just starting. Early days, lots to learn from today, we never expected to play finals this year we just want to see big improvements, there will be days like today, hopefully far fewer than last year. and a few more where we get to sing our song after the match. looking forward to the year and better things.

How's "we know where we're at" compared to "I didn't see that coming"?

Just a reminder. I did predict this carnage and I was pilloried at the time by some. But my point was not the effect of a poor scoreline but the dent to our momentum, player's confidence in themselves and each other, and of course the effect on supporters and memberships. I believe the final non NAB practice matches were negotiable between the clubs. We made a bad choice in my mind. After tackling two finalists we should have been taking on a mid ranking side to build on our preseason momentum. From the posts I have read so far there are zero positives coming out of today just more self doubt! And Shyte in such a professional game how can one team be so far ahead of almostveveryone else? I know they are good but really!

I left 5 minutes into final term. I wasn't prepared to watch Gibson tear us (another) new one! A few observations ... Thought we played selfish today from early on... case in point, Trengove marks at 45 early in first, Blease is wider but closer and well clear, running into pocket. Trengove sees him but elects to go back and take the shot. I think it went OOB on the full. Now Trenners, Blease needed you to show some faith. A goal to Blease at that point would have lifted him, given him a shot in the arm. Our short kicking was very ordinary. Spencer has to stop looking at the opposition ruckman as he contests the centre bounce. I'm surprised the umps aren't pinging him more often. He's a big lump of a lad who needs to get up as high as he can at the jump. I thought Fitzpatrick was more effective at the centre bounce when he took it. The foreign legion were still among our best on the day. Vince, Cross, Michie and Tyson were good to very good at times. Georgiou must be elevated. He can play on blokes that are taller than him. Strauss struggles on taller opposition. We need Georgiou while Garland is on the sidelines. Thought Trenners and Grimes made too many errors of judgement today. Dunn was our best out of defence but they all reverted to kicking long to the boundary, hoping for a throw in. Umpiring on holding the ball was ludicrous. I think it should be mandatory for AFL umpires to have played 50 games of senior football, somewhere, before getting a gig. Let them see how impossible it is to get the ball out when four or five blokes are piled on top holding it in.

I'm surprises you guys could see that much. The ground is quite flat so I struggled to see who was who. Bloody warm down there and the parking was utter chaos

It is what it is. We tried to play the Hawthorn way and got exposed and shown where we're at. They chopped us up on the outside, but I thought our endevour at the stoppages was OK. Roos will get far more from this loss than the win against Richmond. Also, we went head to head all day. It was a practice match and Roos didn't try to rein in the loss. We know where we're at and it will do the players good to know where we need to get to. Seemingly I'm not as upset as others.

I have the perspective and don't place much store in the result but it's nevertheless disappointing even given the lack of any forward line or forward structure whatsoever. Bottom line - beaten for skill, endeavour, class, football brains etc by a vastly superior combination and since I bagged Brisbane a few weeks ago for showing no ticker against the same opposition, I'll add that we were just as bad. ON top of that the umpires were cr@p..

Thankgod it was free and the bbq and the gelati from MR whippy were the highlight of the day.

Clarkson has been building his side for 8 or more years, Roos has had less than 5 months. Have some perspective people. This is a 2 win side playing the premiers. I have little doubt that we will be much improved this season, however we can not expect to be anywhere near hawthorns level this early into the process.

I am shocked and appalled that the worst team of last year (minus a forward line) couldn't compete with the premiers of last year. This is a disgrace and I call for a Royal Commission into this.

Did you guys actually think after a couple of good NAB games we were going to compete with the best at the moment? Welcome to reality.

I left at 3/4 time. Hawthorn's pressure and spreading was amazing. They were far more composed and their skills were brilliant. Funnily enough we had a crack today, but were simply outclassed. We over possessed and the lack of forward targets really hurt. It didn't feel we were as bad as the scoreboard suggested, but others may disagree. Roos and co now know exactly where we need to improve. It's onwards and upwards from here. I need to add that we got the rough end of the umpiring. As usual.

Never in doubt.

Peter is a kind, caring individual who does a hell of a lot for ex-VFL players who have fallen on hard times. He also earns a fortune by being 'Crackers' in the media and at sports nights interstate. And I'm proud to call him a mate.