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I was hoping this thread was going to ask me to choose between olisik and Whispering_Jack.

How do you solve a problem like Col Sylvia? How do you catch a cloud and pin it down? How do you find a word that means Col Sylvia? A flibbertijibbet! A will-o'-the wisp! A clown! Man, I need sleep.

OK late summary here, hope somebody sees some value in it (Is there anything worse than the poster who couldn't be F'd going down there, but they look at a stats sheet and pontificate on it as if they were there?) -Anyway, Frawley played well, I saw ONE instance where Riewoldt (who is clearly one of the best in the game) beat him, and even that incident occured because NR had a nice little runup to be able to come over the top of a flat footed JF to mark it. That incident aside he guarded the goals as the all australian we know,. Same goes for Watts, he was clinical as usual, exc the full back kickout he did in the last few minutes that hit dal santo on the chest. Apart from that he delivered his usual game of precise, clever football. We were the better team for about 85 of the 100 minutes. Jones and Jamar are the real deal, as we all know.. couple more A graders in there and we have a midfield, cue viney blease trengove toumpas. Lyden dunn had a couple of moments that would be regarded as franklin-like.. i've never been a big fan but some of the things he has pulled out in the last few have been A grade. What I couldn't believe was the amount of handballs that missed the target, as others have touched on, we had just too many hacks playing, i'm thinking Gillies and Nicholson first and foremost. Others inc Matt Jones and Terlich were guilty of similar but these are guys who have just started their journey We need to be fielding a 22 that doesnt make thse basic mistakes... call me captain obvious..We could not connect 3 or 4 possession changes without some hack fluffing it up, for the season proper we will have trengove and mckenzie in there, kicking to clark and dawes instead of nobody, as was the case yesterday. Obviously, we lost a game because of a 15 minute period domination, this has been the pattern for the last few years, and is clearly our biggest challenge. Despite my general distrust of stats, we beat them for I50s and we didnt have our best 2 monster forwards down there. Davey played a disgusting game. Almost as bad as having 21 in the squad.. I have been a huge fan over his career but at this point i view him as a cancer that must be removed. You didnt see any of the power sides over the last few carrying a prissy, selfish, primadonna in the forward pocket. Apart from a 15 minute period we were quite good despite the fact our opponent was clearly at higher strength than us. Clark Dawes Blease Viney Trengove McDonald we are so much better than that, these guys take the place of the hacks we saw out there yesterday I am well known as a doom-and-gloomer but i left cranbourne yesterday with a slight spring in my step. Everbody was expecting the 5 goal lead at 3QT to become a 10 goal win, but they had more mettle than that.For this preseason in general I am very confident we will move from 4 wins to 8-9, possibly more if a certain view like sylvia and grimes can up the ante BTW I saw some knocks on Toumpas and I wonder if some people have the slightest idea about football. He spent a lot of time on the bench, but when involved he showed why (similar to Trengove) he was the captain of SA. He went back and nailed that goal from about 50 in high winds and it confrimed his class for mine. Bottom line: If we can address our propensity to get owned for 15 minutes a game, we will approach 8-10 wins this year

Bloody hell.

A team is a team when members of the team self sacrifice in order to achieve the team's goals. A successful team is one where this self sacrifice is valued highly. eg. shepherding. Shepherding is the act of taking a bump or bumping in order to allow a team mate more time with the ball. It's a simple thing but allows the player with the ball more time to deliver and therefore deliver more accurately and efficiently than he would otherwise have under pressure. We bemoan lack of skills but we never do stuff like this!

A good case study might be the comparison between two young speedsters in Sam Blease and David Zaharakis who were both selected in the 2008 AFL National Draft. During the Under 18 Championships of that year, one of our many deficiencies was considered lack of pace through the midfield and two players identified in the Vic Metro team were Blease (a bottom ager) and Zaharakis. In fact, I had my eyes on the latter the year before when it was suggested in the media that Melbourne was interested in selecting him with one of the late picks that were eventually used on Kyle Cheney and Tom McNamara. Blease really impressed me at the championships and he was eventually selected at 17, just ahead of Luke Shuey who went to West Coast. Zaharakis went at 23, Jack Redden at 25, Dayne Beams and Daniel Hannebery at 29 and 30 respectively and Rory Sloane, who made the Sheahan top 50 today (as did Beams), was taken at 44. Given that we also had pick 19 which was used on James Strauss, our recruiting effort that year was, on the face of it, rather unspectacular to say the absolute least. Of course, the blokes we drafted that year have had their issues and Blease suffered that debilitating schoolyard injury but we really do need he and Jack Watts, Strauss and Nev Jetta to come of age this year to avoid the embarrassment of a badly flawed piece of recruiting (and we've had a few of those!) Meanwhile, Zaharakis took no time to get into the limelight at Essendon. Watch him tonight on FOX Footy's 30 minute thrillers starring in an Anzac Day clash for Essendon. And, he's won a b & f with the Bombers. We need our players to step up to the plate early in their careers and progress and develop far better than in the past.

It's always amused me that there can be differences from his end of season list and his subsequent pre-season list. What's changed in that time given no-one has played a game?

I suppose it's stating the obvious but we'll know we're getting close to winning a premiership if we start talking about players of the calibre of those mentioned and we don't have to use the word "if" any more.It's an indictment on the coaching and football development at this club over the past decade that, by and large, too many players have failed to live up to potential and never managed to step up to the elite levels suggested by their natural talent. At least we're now investing in this area so we have the opportunity to remove the "if" from the equation.

I would not put Howe in the same boat as Sylvia, no way, he is a 2 year player coming into his 3rd for a start. Playing with Casey he showed enough to push into the senior team half way through his first season and developed further last year putting in a consistent season. Don't mistake his spectacular marking for a lack of effort in other parts of his game, he works hard at it, he runs, he chases, he tackles, he trains hard. To me he is exactly where he should be as a player at the moment and I would expect to see him improve further this season.

As long as I don't have to share a tent with Bitter But Optimistic

That story makes me want to cry.

There are some surprising aspects to his list, Melbourne not having a player isn't one of them.

While I think a good 'game plan' is important, I do think that it is highly overrated. Yes a good game plan will improve the team but in the end it is going to be the players instinct, fitness, skill etc that will get the team over the line. For much of the start of the 2012 season all our players seemed to do was try and kick a long ball along the boundary which would almost always result in a scramble of players at the end of the kick. The opposition would either out muscle us or use their numbers to then launch another attack inside 50. I think towards the end of last year and what we have seen from the preseason is that the players are now willing to take some risks, go down the middle of the ground (like dunns kick on weekend), the players are starting to link up with leads and not just kick the ball as high and far as possible. I believe this is a sign that Neeld has accepted the fact that his original game plan would not work, it was predictable and the ball movement was slow. If we can begin to have chains of possessions and take the game on like Hawthorn then we would already look a different team (we can only do that if our team has good fitness, decision making and disposal).

A team becomes a team when players exhibit signs of instinctively knowing what teammates are going to do in given situations. A team becomes a team when personal glory is automatically dismissed in favour of self-sacrifice. A team becomes a team when the hunted become the hunters. Can this be achieved by a second year coach fresh off a 14 player list overhaul? Doubtful. But in-roads can certainly be made. By 2015 we'll know if the Neeld Way © was the right way. Let's hope he can survive until then because there'll undoubtedly be times when the blowtorch is applied. Expect to see some very ugly footy at times this season as the Coach does anything in his power to scrape together wins.

If only that was the explanation for the worst drubbing in the history of the game (I make some allowance for our 1979 debacle v Fitzroy because our team was injury-riddled and awful to start with). If you were right, Geelong would have beaten us by something like the 119 point margin they had over Port Adelaide in the 2007 grand final (and Port have yet to recover from that). 186 was a momentous event for which the entire club needed to accept collective responsibility. We needed to bring in change and remove the worst aspects of the pathetic culture that pervaded the club at that time and which was symbolised by that game. That's what happened and I'm surprised it was achieved so swiftly at this club because we've historically been so conservative and averse to change. New coach, new football department, massive turnover in players and the only thing we can't do overnight is become a power house of the competition because that's a really tough gig. Give it a bit of time but let's not kid ourselves about how bad we were in July 2011.

Watts did some good things yesterday. He is calm and composed and generally wins more 50/50s than he loses. He's been very good in that role and I can certainly see him continue to play well as a rebounding defender this year. We don't have many players in our defence with his sort of composure and distribution under pressure, so it makes him avery important player for us. I though Terlich was good, although I think he's a better attacker than defender at the moment. He's good with the footy and calm, but he needs to find the balance between his offence and defence. Jamar was good, as he should have been. I think, despite Sellar's excellent form, that Pederson is the better player for us in his role. He's a better runner and that's required pushing up the ground in the role they'll play. Pederson did some very good things that created opportunities for us, even if they didn't get on the stats sheet. He's a big, mobile body. Hopefully he is good enough in the ruck to play the role, although he broke even with the other back up rucks in Kosi and Blake. Sellar is a taller, stronger option, but I don't think that this is the role we need with Dawes and Clark to return. Our defensive system is much better this year. You can tell that they are better drilled now and fitter, but we it isn't yet natural enough for us to do it without thought. In the second quarter we let them get the ball over the back and they go some very easy goals. Other than that we were probably the better side. We do need, however, just that extra bit of class in teh midfield to be able to turn our half chances into easy chances, and our good play into goals. Just lacked that hint of crispness when it counted. St Kilda had some very classy midfielders that consistently took the chances to create that came to them.

I think we have a core dozen players that could be involved in a flag. The rest are "interchangeables". Collingwood, Hawthorn and even Geelong still have a core group that you build premiership teams around. I must say though that Sydney's win last year has had me reassessing what is possible. I reckon it's one of the more extraordinary football feats I can remember. They won the flag in 2005 and in just 7 years virtually rebuilt their list and won another. There were just 4 players that played in the 05 team. It's crazy how they could do it with virtually no access to decent draft picks. I appreciate the salary cap difference, but it is truly astonishing what they were able to do. Even when I look at the premiership side on paper it looks pretty average.

So we begin the year not knowing how bad we'll suck...again. What has crossed my mind recently is the question of when is a team a team? When do they go from a good collection of players to a 'unit' - a team whose cohesion makes it more effective? I'm used to dealing with individuals, not teams. When our senior list is so volatile, when our experience in general is poor, we need to add that being a poor team is also a hindrance. Add to that, our coaching 'team' is pretty new as well. How long is enough for the team to start playing like one - to be able to work well together? How stable does a footy team need to be to be able to function as a team? And then, what are sensible expectations for our team this year?

After the well-known 2009 draft, myself and I think many others thought that we had built a premiership team. However after a couple of eye opening seasons I think many demonlanders have come to a realisation. Like so many of you I find myself always asking the same question will this current list (with maybe the addition of a couple trades, free agency, draft picks etc) be good enough to win a premiership. I believe we will experience success with the current list but to what extent? Will we be a top 4 team for a number of years without winning a premiership and then have to go through another rebuilding phase? I personally believe we have the talent and resources (players/coaches) to win a premiership but it will rely on the club as a whole to make the most of them (players/resources). I think if we are to succeed it will all begin with a "winning culture". With a winning culture I think players such as Jamar, Jones, Sylvia, Frawley will lift and this will lead to the development of stars (Trengove, Viney, Toumpas). However we need more than this, we need to take advantage of everything we have! With a winning culture/serious football department we need to be able to make players out of our under the radar draft picks: Taggert (pick 36) - desperately in need of midfielders with class and a good kick!, Jetta - another potential midfielder with pace, aggression and a beautiful kick - can play inside and outside while resting up forward, Sam Blease (Pick 17) - Need his pace and confidence in wing to high forward position - need to fix his disposal, Max Gawn (Pick 34) - another who has great potential it just is yet to be harnessed, Dean Kent (Pick 34) - has shown promise and talent could be a great midfield/high forward, James Strauss (Pick 19) - needs to step up and be that medium defender - with run and carry/great kick out of defence, Luke Tapscott (Pick 18) - another which has shown promise but has done little since - I like other have come to question where he fits in on our list - would like him to become like Chappy (a high forward that can go into the midfield (like Sylvia) - I think if this is going to be done he will have to tone down (to become quicker/fitter), Jack Watts (Pick 1) - we all know his weakness'/strengths - needs to get more aggressive and use his supposed talent!, Dom Barry (Pick #) - From reports has show talent, lets not let him become a Jamie Bennel (who I thought was immensely talented but just didn't want to use it). That's 8 players (more than a 1/3 of a team) who you could say are average/fringe players that have the talent to be premiership players. If we can develop/groom 4 or more of these players in to premiership players than I think with the addition of our current top 18, I think we have a chance of winning a premiership! I think our only hope lies in creating the right culture to develop young talent (a winning culture)! If we get to the point of being in finals I think we will all be blown away by the increase in devotion and desire to win (by the whole list). We have recently begun to witness what I believe is the first step to creating a winning culture, the competition for spots on the list (ie. Sellar and Pedersen). Success will only make the club greater! For example look at Nathan Jones or Lynden Dunn (Pick 15) for so long he has been nothing more than a fringe player who has continually made silly decisions but with a change of culture/coach he has been given a position down back which he seems to have cemented despite pressure for that spot (Garland, Watts, Terlich, Gilles etc). And so to cap it up yes I believe we have the potential to become a premiership side but it will require us (club/supporters etc) to take advantage of every resource whether that's turning an under the radar player such as James Strauss into the player that he has the potential to be or using a fringe player such as Pedersen to at the very least create competition for spots. So heres my starting 22: For Round 1 and beyond FB: Watts, Frawley, Stauss CHB: Dunn, McDonald, Jetta C: Blease, Jones, Toumpas CHF: Howe, Dawes, Sylvia FF: Byrnes/Barry (need small fwd), Clark, Byrnes FOLL: Jamar, McKenzie/(Need a Star), Viney INT: Trengove, Grimes, Kent EMER: Tapscott, Sellar, Rodan, Gawn, Taggert + Hogan What do you think? do we have the potential?

If you'd ever worked or live in an impoverished aboriginal community I've no doubt your tone would be different. The mere fact that he got to us at all was a miracle worked by some very committed Magpies. The club recruits young men and owes them the same support they offered Liam. I hope that support is continuing. He "walked" out because his community went into full melt down and he chose family over football. Something most other bogans playing the sport would never do. We owe the aboriginal community of this country much more than an apology. Maybe spend some time looking into the divisions and problems that the white mining boom is causing whilst you consider Liam's predicament. You're still a f..wit, only a bigger one for crapping on about something you clearly no nothing about. Now head off to the tattoo parlour for you celtic band.

It was Pick 3/13/Barry for 20, Hogan and "for heaven's sake don't nominate Viney with #1". It wouldn't have been a verbalised or written deal, just the MFC saying "pick 3 might be up for trade", and GWS being smart enough to draw the inference that they couldn't receive it if they forced us to use it on Viney. The obvious wouldn't have needed to be said (although with the tanking deal I guess you couldn't trust the MFC not to say it anyway), so there should be nothing to spring. I maintain that Toumpas being available wasn't part of the deal, it was just an enormous stroke of luck. You wouldn't be able to make that deal without saying it -- that would be inviting trouble. Nonetheless, getting all three of Viney, Toumpas and Wines was not possible. Bottom line is that had we not traded pick 3, GWS would have forced us to take Viney with it. And I can't believe you'd wish Hogan away anyway.

Agree Jnr what you see is what you get. He will be else where in 2014

Really? The thought of hindsight drafting Wines instead of the Dawes/Barry/Hogan swap actually makes me feel sad.

I'm pretty sure what the OP means is that Todd Viney has fathered both these boys and therefore we actually had the choice and did we pick the right one. That's what you meant right? Ridiculous.

I watch games unrelated to Melbourne and the umpires make me want to throw a brick at my tv. The frees have never been softer.

Trick question... We were always going to take Viney The choice was between Wines and Toumpas. Your question is faulty.... Faulty I tell you!

Runner up in B&F last year, first full injury free year, only MFC player rated elite by the dodgy brothers. I think he's going ok.

The definition of a "Team" has got to be The Melbourne Storm. The have it on & off the field. God i long for the day some of it rubs off on the Demons. Stripped of points for a season & still won enough games to make the finals. The Coach stays because the Storm is his team, regardless of other contract offers. Look no further for a team than the Melbourne Storm.

Forgot to add a fourth ingredient ... the MOST IMPORTANT. A team becomes a team when it starts WINNING. Winning. There's no other cure.

Great question. I couldn't help but admire Geelong in the NAB cup saturday when it got tight. Instinctively they played to a plan and knew were to run as they moved the ball up the middle of the field. The secret I believe is in how many games you can get into the young players when they arrive at the club in the seconds. Thats right in the 2's learning the game style so they react instinctively when they make the ones. In the 80's at the Hawks it was not uncommon to play 50 games in the seconds before making your senior debut (Michael Tuck) and now Geelong have a core of young players to bring on who have played 2 seasons in the 2's even the great Gary Ablett, Enright etc played a seconds grand final which they won. Collingwood is currently developing its second stringers at their 2nds. Contrast this to MFC and casey where we wont let our players play finals at Casey and look to get as many games into you in your first year. Thank goodness Viney got to spend a year at casey as will Jessie Hogan there is NO quick fix to team culture!!!

I wish I had.

And when you think about it - if you get 30 touches a game (if) - youve got the ball for about 30 seconds. Maybe less. So what are you doing to help the team the other 79.5 mins?

Disagree. Jack always had a smirk, but he never believed in Bosustow as anything more than a good ordinary player. He defended this view many times after being questioned on this.

This reeks of starting with the conclusion and then trying to find the evidence afterwards. It's like an argument for a 6000 year old earth. If you were at the game then you must have been facing the wrong way.

Howe has had a great preseason, but is struggling a little with his new role. Last year he was regularly up on a wing as he was part of the midfield rotations, but this year he's playing a permanent forward role. And when you're not a key forward it's not an easy gig. You'll have the odd great quarter, or even game, but they don't call it starvation corner for nothing. Sylvia just isn't a great midfielder. He's not creative and lacks awareness. He's a great finisher and power runner, so I'd rather him on a HFF and Blease on the wing. At the moment it's the other way around.

Ben- you have become painfully repetitive. We know you don't rate Watts. Enough already.

Yes, I think we can make the top four if certain things happen and they are big ifs: 1. We get ourselves a young very large dominant mobile ruckman who is capable of dominating sides. I think a fit Max Gawn could be that person if he can stay injury free. He is mobile, the second tallest in the AFL. He has the potential to develop into an A grader; 2. Watts becomes the superstar we all believe he can be; 3. Several of our top 1st round draft picks develop into A graders: I would nominate Trengove, Hogan, Viney, toumpas, Grimes, Jones, tapscott, Frawley 4. Several second and third rounders, develop into Aand B graders. The ones I think have the potential to do this are MacDonald, Barry, Bleese, Garland, Jetta, Dunne, Howe 5. The new attack of Clark, Hogan, Dawes, tapscott, Davey, Howe develops to its potential. In my view we have the potential to be the best in the league here. Incidentally, with Clark, Dawes and a mature Hogan, as well of course the high flying Howe, it will allow us to us a lot longer kicking gameplay, where the likes of Dunne, tapscott, toumpas and even Kent become a lot more important - long kicking players all of them. That will in turn encourage us to use the corridor more, not unlike North Melbourne in the Carey years and seemingly the Buckley coached collingwood. I must say our forward line in 2 years will be a lot more potent than Collingwood's today. We can all see Hogan's huge potential: I counted five potential contested overhead marks which could have been paid to Jesse at the weekend and with a different umpire may have been. He is very close and in 12 months time after a year at Casey and training with the seniors he will hold them and several more. A huge bonus for us. The weakness though remains the midfield. For us to get top four we need Trengove, Gawn, Grimes, jones, Watts, Viney, toumpas and maybe tapscott to all become A graders. If all of the above happens then I predict top 6 in 2014, and premiers 2015. Around 10th or so this year though I suspect.

Put him on the wing.Our disposal into inside 50 is vfl 2's standard. The bloke has a beautiful shoe, and his defensive weaknesses won't be as exposed on the wing.

I have a lot of love for you Bob. Your posts and the occasional text from Jack on game day, are the only voices I listen to. Thanks.

exactly right, i think we were 10 points or so up at qtr time, should have been more like 20. Upmires blah blah blah but its a simple fact frees were 15-5 at half time, it had nothing to do with the way were playing they just got the advantage of every contentious one. That was one factor, the other massive one was that we were missing clark and dawes, we had more i50s surprise suprise we couldn't kick as many. The other factor is that our infantile side let their gaurd down for 12 minutes against the wind, ultimately costing us the game. We were the better side everall despite missing about 7 of our best 22

if you ask me, if you live in the city of melbourne, anywhere near cranbourne you should get your arse down there. I had a huge night friday night and i really wasnt feeling enthusiastic but i effing did because i love and support this club. Last week renmark, next week southport, there is nothing you can do about that, but casey you have the opportunity to get down there. It's our lot in life to be the AFLs whipping boy, but you have no excuse not to get on the freeway like 5000 of us did yesterday in the searing heat

Absolute domination in that first quarter. The only time the Saints got any momentum was from a cheap or dodgy free, and their only goal came from a simple turnover from Jones' boot, of all people. A couple of Hogan marks not paid too. You add a couple more goals and the deficit created in the second quarter would've been alot more manageable. If we can play like that for four quarters we'll compete with most teams. Also, Rodan, wow. More of that this season thanks.

seconds always kicked off at 11:30

Can we win a premiership with this list? Definitely. Will we? That's impossible to predict. If this team is prepared and ooached well, it should become a force in the competition. Whether that equates to premierships we'll just have to wait and see.

good get. Neeld is a beginning coach with one of the worst teams in AFL history (relative to its competition). no real leaders, poor onfield and off-field culture, limited talent, limited experience...and you reckon you know how he is going to get us to play? Let's all be terribly clear about this: none of us know if Neeld can coach. None of us know how it will look if and when he gets it together and none of us know what style will win a grand final with the one exception: that competitiveness around the ground and a team built on defensive principles has always stood the best chance of winning a premiership once its talent has got up and going. And that is where Neeld has started. Neeld has been clear about who he wants and who he doesn't. He has been clear on trying to build a forward structure. He has been clear about the character of people he wants to recruit. Thompson got years to shape a list: he almost lost his job before it all clicked. Let's give Neeld some time: he clearly has direction.

Some good points above but it's not all about the list only.You only have to go back to the GF,where the Hawks had the more talented team on the day but the Swans had the superior gameplan which ultimately won them the cup. Hawks couldn't stand up to the pressure for 4 quarters,they couldn't get their 30 metre chipping game going because the Swans owned the space. As much as we need to build a very talented list,if Neeld doesn't get the gameplan right,we won't play top 4 football,same goes for Giants & Suns.

Overheard Watts' Dad telling friends that Watts is playing at 91.5 kgs this year and the aim is still to get him to 95 -96kg. For mine Watts has the attributes to be a great player and the current coaching and fitness personnel are far more equiped to assist him in realising his potential than those who proceeded them. He reads the play well, can take a contested mark, is quick and is a beautiful kick.

Rohan rates the forward line, must be "footy dumb" because Ben-Hur said it's no good..

"Deal with three regional independents" logic. The government committed to delivering the upgraded service to regional and remote locations which were at the time worst serviced by existing infrastructure. Also part of why the NBN is so heavily behind it's roll-out targets - hardest places first. Like the 'trunk cable' between Queensland Coast and Mt Isa, basically the length of Bob Katter's electorate. Sigh, I should clarify before someone calls me a 'biased crony of the witch Ju-Liar', I have stated a fact. That's all. But go on, get your blowtorch out before you even stop to think about whether I actually approve of massive pork-barrel deals to buy off a majority in the House of Reps. Political discussion in Australia is about as pointed and issue-based as a typical Demonland thread is by about page 17. Anyway, Liam quit the club rather ignominiously and it seems his life continued to spiral down since then. Meanwhile, the people most responsible for managing his welfare (and other player's welfare) while with the club were unceremoniously shown the door a year ago. Apparently in bad blood. Our then coach and football manager no longer have any direct role with the players. Our entire leadership group has changed. Our recruiting philosophy has changed from 'leaping for the speccie' to 'following the percentage play'. Perhaps the most important thing to note is that however things were back then, there's very little in common with it now. The only constant is that this year, like last year and the five before that, will be Colin Sylvia's breakout year.