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Last year's premiers Sydney, conceded the lowest score of all teams over the home and away season - a little over 100 points less than their grand final opponents Hawthorn. The credit for that not only goes to the players who took their places in what we traditionally call the six defensive positions but also the others around the ground who, among other things, have to work to ensure that the defenders are not put under pressure to concede scores. Moreover, you have to give credit to the Swans' coaches for putting into place the appropriate strategies to enable the defenders to succeed in a variety of conditions and against different opponents from week to week. If you look at the Swans' main back six of last year and some of the others who played there from time to time, I don't believe that individually the quality of their players was any better than ours (I think potentially ours can be better) - Richards, Roberts-Thompson, Grundy, Mattner, Johnson, Shaw and Smith all had good seasons in 2012 and it helped that there were no major injuries, but I wouldn't have put them in my list of the top half dozen defences in the competition at the beginning of the year. However, it was the way in which Longmire and co organised the defensive structure and how they worked together as a group and within the wider framework of the team that made the Swans succeed from the defensive point of view and ultimately as a whole to win the flag. IMO the case for the defence is built therefore on a lot more than the placement of the individuals who fill the 6 spots that we once knew as the backline and half backline.

Not surprised I will be surprised if we see him in the seniors before June. He had serious foot injury, it always looked like he would be out for 12 months IMO. Why rush him it will not cost us playing finals in 2013 and we need him firing in the next few years not rounds 1 -8 of 2013.

Melbourne signed two players who were 15 to play in the U19 because zoning was going to be scraped, the players were David Schwarz and Neitz.

OK, I get your point. I tend to hold onto things once I've decided but I think Watts will be a very good player for us in the future. I don't really care what position that is.

Much will depend on the game plan. Last year we asked kids to play man on man footy and kick it around the boundary. It was so easy to defend against as we only used one third of the ground and the bigger opposition just picked us off. Not only that but I think last year we saw the competition as a whole move away from the 2011 Collingwood game plan model and use the corridor significantly more. Players like Nicholson and Macdonald are terrific competitors but turn the ball over in uncontested situations far too often. Dunn is a poor decision maker. If you're going to play those sort of players it's necessary to play boundary line footy because you can't afford midfield turnovers. But if we want to use all the ground we need good decision makers and good kicks coming out of defence. Watts will excel at this and players like Strauss and Terlich would be well ahead of Nicholson and Macdonald. I think it's time we developed the offensive side of our game and gave the younger kids who don't have fully developed AFL body strength the chance to use their strengths as well as learn the defensive side of the game. I'd favour Strauss and Terlich given that their form is good but I recognize the considerable strengths of players like Nicholson. It will be interesting to see how it develops over the season. I'm also a believer that Watts should play an outside midfield/quarterback role, perhaps similar to Goddard. Give him the ball in the midfield 20 times a game and our forwards will have a much easier time of it.

I'm not kidding myself. What has Scully done that Watts hasn't? To this point, neither has lived up to their hype, but I'd say Watts is ahead of Scully in just about every way.

So was Clive Waterhouse....

Another tidbit about Watts. I was at a corporate function about 18 months ago, which featured Garry Lyon interviewing Kevin Sheedy. Gubby Allen was also there. It was during the Bailey period, and the tension about Scully's departure was still red hot. Someone in the audience asked a question about recruiting 18 year old sportsmen, and whether the AFL had to compete with other codes to attract those players. Gubby Allen fielded the question. He said, words to the effect, "most definitely. A lot of these kids are really good at other sports, particularly cricket and basketball". "In fact, in 2009, the number one draft pick was a kid called Jack Watts. He was an elite basketballer, and Basketball Australia were putting heaps of pressure on him to pursue a basketball career. They even suggested he'd play for Australia at the Olympics. They told him not to pursue AFL. Ultimately he did, and most AFL clubs had him as the number one draft pick. Melbourne then picked him." It was all matter of fact. No sly comments about Melbourne or Watts. But I couldn't resist the temptation to set the record straight, so I noted that I was a Melbourne supporter and that Watts was the number one draft pick in 2008. Scully was the number one draft pick in 2009, "but I'm sure you're aware of that Gubby". He gave me a wry grin, as did Sheedy, and Lyon for that matter.

I hope every Demon on 99 games gets his 100th. Lynden will in his first game this year. He is versatile and worth his place on the list.

I don't agree unless I've missed some things along the way. It tells me that 8 members of the 2009 Board have been interviewed and have denied any knowledge of an intention to lose. I find that very interesting. It also confirms that one of the journalists who is covering this story and getting leaks has no smoking gun and his continued focus on the last three minutes of the Richmond game puts the investigation into keystone cops territory. It's a good article from our point of view.

Demons Demons Demons Demons Demons Demons Demons Demons -------------- Demons Demons Demons Demons Demons Demons Demons Demons Demons GWS

"Fear not supporters! I will return and smite the other 17 teams." - Mitch Clark* *may not be an actual quote

So nobody knows what he actually said??

Its not Watt's fault - the footy department didnt play him early enough or enough times in his first year, played in an unusual position with limited rotations and he was told to fumble.

Could get over it? Realise it is Hogan's chalice now to become that player and be thankful that there is such a skilled player placed behind the ball.

I have already booked a seat at the post premiership party for the MFC 2013 flag.

I don't agree BR Scully played 3 -4 good games in 2010. At GWS in 2012 he was poor all season. Watts has had more than 3 -4 good games over the same period. Add in that Watts appears to be physically a lot more sound and I think Watts is in front and will stay there.

I have left my Collingwood supporter daughter to go home via public transport ( in the rain) rather than the comforts of my warm car parked close by after she mouthed off one time too many to me at the football. I have also given the silent treatment and basically ignored my husband for a week+ after QB.

Disagree BBO. To quote the AFL prospectus-remembering he went into defence after the bye (R12). =8th in the comp for rebound 50's, with 34% resulting in F50 entries - 3rd in the AFL. Ranked 64th for intercept possessions (in only 12 games in defence), with the team scoring 73 pts directly from his attacking chains - the 3rd most in the league (behund only Enright and Maxwell). Was direct with the ball and averaged 3rd most metres per kick of any player in the AFL with his retention rate (ie. not going to the opposition) well above the AFL average. And he also kicked 9.6.I think he will become a regular.

Essendon are always in my sights. Their red sash is like a flag to me, it brings out a feral side, like it does with a bull. I guess it's 2000 still haunting me. Surprisingly I haven't had too many problems with many other supporters. I got into a verbal argument with a morbidly obese member of the doggies cheersquad once. He told me to shut up- I told him his club would have more supporters if he didn't eat them all. Fun times.

I thought you were going to give a detailed account as to why we shouldn't be found guilty of tanking. I agree we have an awful lot of 'defenders'.

2000 grand final aftermath, I bit a bombers supporter's finger because he was waving it in my face telling me how much we sucked. I was a hurt and cornered youngster he should have known better, I needed a rabbies shot, although some say the disease still lingers. You don't f with my dees at the footy, I take this stuff seriously haha

We've just published wmth's great article MELBOURNE A VICTIM OF MEDIA LYNCH MOB in our articles and features column. The article was first published here in draft form and the final version was accepted for publication on BACK PAGE LEAD) You can also follow William on wmth's blog We already have a thread on the tanking investigation but we do invite discussion specifically on the content of wjmt's article which we think is great.

More innuendo and assumptions. It's what they call a 'filler' in this quiet time of year. AFL journos have got little to write about and it appears mr pierek has latched on to this, merely writing the same article differently every week. ...thanks for the kind comments re my article above. Cheers Wmth

Anyone else extremely excited for Django Unchained, Tarantino's latest creation? Comes out Thursday.

With regards the training groups and in particular the 'defensive group' : - It's quite likely that things aren't set in stone and we've still got 3 months to go until our first real game. Watts was going to play forward last year (according to the coaching staff) and ended up primarily in the backline (via the wing). Jack may pinch hit in the forward line this season or he might even be tried again in the forward line for a sustained period of time to see if he can make a go of it. For all we know, the groups may be there for any number of reasons. Some might be in certain groups to develop a more defensive mindset or develop more accountability skills. More than a few might get shunted around in the course of the pre-season. Neeld may be looking for flexibilty and adaptability in all our players. The groups could may well be a means to an end. We're coming from a fair way back and many on our list need to establish themselves as regular starters. In any event. all the players in any given game will probably play forward and back (flood and the forward press)

FWIW I reckon the 9-13 range. But..... Did you get permission from Range Rover to start this poll?

had a BFD on sunday. was jumoing out of my skin by monday

We're quick to defend our young players, sometimes fairly and sometimes blindly. The very same people that have been cutting Trengove slack for an average 2012 are laughing at Scully for his 2012 form. Scully averaged more posessions per game, more clearances, was more effective with those possesions and same number of tackles. Yes GWS paid too much for him, but he's not rubbish

We wont need seats Redleg - we'll be dancing the night away.

Defenders live and die by midfield pressure. No pressure and it doesn't matter who the defender is the forward will be able to lead out and take easy marks on most occasions. Apply pressure around the midfield and the ball will mostly be bombed long to a contest and the defenders will have a easy spoil and the forward looks useless.

Not with the ball, he isn't, and the statistics for it are provided in this post on the first page. Sure, he carries on like a try-hard Hayden Ballantyne, but given the ball he makes good decisions and executes them well. He doesn't only kick to the first open man, he kicks to the right open man who will also have an option going forward. Personally, I'm all aboard the Dunn train.

I'd add fitzpatric to that list. IMO if clark isnt fit for round 1, the coaches may want to pick Fitzy as a 3rd tall so that when Clark is fit we will be playing the same structures.

You see, this is where you've got to change your thinking. He will be back by the second half of the season in time to regain match fitness before playing in at least one final in 2013. C'mom OD, you've got to switch on and think positive. Rid yourself of these lingering doubts. The past is gone and done. Look to the future and see the light brother. OPTIMISM... POSITIVITY... FAITH... FINALS Go DEES!

Nor did I. It was his comments that there are more important things in life than footy that grated. Especially on the eve of round 1. If he'd said, "There's virtually nothing more important than seeing the red and blue run out on to the G, but I've long had this commitment, so I'll regrettably have to wait a week", then I doubt that many would have had an issue. But it's fair to say I wasn't a fan of Gardner nearly every time he opened his mouth.

Some are being a bit tough here on Paul Gardner and his board. Despite the fact that many of them were part of the old Szondy board, they still had to pick up the pieces of the train wreck they inherited from an incompetently run administration (the CEO "lost" the club's tax bill in the drawers of his desk, for heaven's sake) and I think they did that well for most of Gardner's tenure working hard against the odds for some years to steadily get the club back on an even keel until they were overwhelmed by tightening economic circumstances that, in the end, forced them to stand down. I certainly had no issue with Paul's walk for Oxfam (it indicated to me that he was the type who wouldn't allow anything to prevent him from following through with a commitment which I felt was a good thing). If anything, the main weakness of the Gardner years was that the eye was taken off the ball in respect to the core business of the club. By the end of 2006 the team was about to go into rapid decline with the impending retirements of many of the better players, our failure to promote a proper succession plan in on field leadership* and to recruit and develop younger players coming in to fill the void (see the recently revived "young guns" thread). In hindsight, I think we probably kept Neale Daniher on as coach for a couple of years too long and for the wrong reasons. From 2005 on, he was often the spruiker for the club when others should have been fulfilling that role. We really needed someone in the middle of the last decade to come into the club and to look at it from an independent viewpoint. Such a person might have seen the storm brewing that many of us couldn't (and I include myself in that lot). In the end, I think the Gardner Board simply lost momentum and became tired battling the odds. The McNamee appointment proved to be a poor one and, given its importance and the existing financial situation, I felt the 150 year celebration should have turned more than a modest profit. I think the tragedy was that one or two more of the board could have stayed on in the transition and that might even have saved us some of the pain we're still suffering to this day. [* not having a go at Junior here but rather commenting on the lack of leadership depth at the club when Dean Bailey took over]

I find it bizarre the amount of negative press Watts has attracted as a number one draft pick in circumstances where others seem not to attract the same spotlight/criticism. This article has just been posted on the AFL website about Tom Scully: http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-01-19/scully-rising To be honest, this kid has done pretty well nothing to date, except accumulating a stack of cheap possessions against the Bulldogs in one game towards the end of 2010. A couple of mates of mine are in the GWS Captain's Club (essentially GWS's coterie group). They reckon GWS's B&F voting last year was heavily skewed in Scully's favour because GWS couldn't justify paying him so much dough and Scully featuring really poorly in their B&F. Bottom line is, according to them at least, Scully picked up a stack of votes in games where his performance didn't really justify it. Their opinion was wholly unprovoked/unsolicited by me - they just reckon he's massively over-payed and think GWS could've got a better player for that much dough. Yet, Scully doesn't seem to attract that much criticism as a number one pick in his year, a draft which also contained Martin, Fyfe and Trengove. And, for a player who'd shown so little at the time, his management team somehow negotiated for him the most insanely rewarding contract in the history of the code. I really don't get it. But I do get this: *Clark + Toumpas + Dawes + Barry > Scully. * We could only afford Clark because of the money we'd put aside to attempt to retain Scully. Thank you GWS on all fronts. I'd also take Watts over Scully for what it's worth.

My God a thread about the players. Now there is a new idea. Love it!

Definitely played in the Under 19s. I remember seeing him playing for them at the Junction Oval which was their home ground for a while. Also didn't know anything about him walking out which threw me. Sunbury qualifies for country.

Was escorted from the ground during Queens Bday a few years back. It was when Daniel Bell nearly got his head taken off by that gutless sniper Ben Johnson. There were some Pies supporters behind me and they started yelling out at Daniel Bell calling him a softc*ck and to stop faking it and get up etc. I told them to shut up, they swore back at me and one of them spilled a drink on my back/head, so I lost it. Broke one guys jaw, sunk anothers eyeball into the socket, and broke a couple of my own fingers in the process. Filth supporters are just that; Filth. Most d*ckheads who talk sh*t can never back it up, and they need to be taught a lesson so they stop running their mouth. I hope those two never forget that lesson I gave them. Who knew studying Kenpo would pay off Also lost it after the Adelaide 2002 semi-final. My mates had to calm me down after I threw a bin just outside the G. Oddly enough, these are the only two times in my life I've gotten legitimately angry. Both caused by footy Back to the main topic, when I tell people I support Melbourne I am met with either mocking laughter or sympathy. We are a sh*t football club unfortunately. Doesn't mean I don't love my club, but being born in the 80s and still yet to see any success, means the club is seen as weak. Hopefully this new cultural shift moves us forward and we can see some success. Us supporters deserve it more than anyone.

Have to admit that in the stand, I too thought for about 15 mins that Juice was coming good. Led well, strong hands, and that Oscar performance slap to the chin (Firrito?).... had all the hallmarks of a classic Italian opera.....betrayal, promise unforfilled, passion, lust..... or am I getting ahead of myself?.......

I hate Essendon supporters with a passion but don't worry felllas I have extracted revenge on behalf of all of us on three separate occasions. I have successfully managed to draw blood from two of the arrogant sods and had a whole family of the ferals ejected from Telstra dome in 2009. The most fulfilling part was tasting the youngest bombers supporters tears, they were so salty!

To everyone who gets down to training and writes these reports, keep up the great work. I honestly don't know what I'd do without the updates - they make the footy off season in Perth bareable! Can't wait for season proper!

Watts and Nic Nat were the two outstanding picks of their year. Both were seen as athletes who had a lot of football to learn. The club needed a CHF before it needed a ruckman and went with Watts. Watts kicked winning goals after the siren in the under 18 champs, therefore was seen as a player who stood up in a game when needed. I beleive that playing well in finals or in Under 18 champs is seen as a bonus by most clubs these days, including the new drafting policy at the MFC. Nic Nat is by far the superior player thus far, but Watts has had litlle support as a CHF, while Nic Nat has a great in Cox to coax him thru and support his development. Currently the rumour is that Nic Nat has an injury that he will not overcome. The player he was in the first half of 2012 will never be again. Fan hit the nail on the head and Watts has been grossly mismanaged by the club and he has suffered as a result. Another fact is that has been ignored is Watts played a lot in the midfield at the Dragons. He was NEVER a pure out and out CHF. I still see Watts as a FWD next to Dawes, Clark, Pedo and Hogan. Watts is a very talented midfielder come forward. I hate the idea of most on here believing that a good set of guns results in strength in the air or on the ground. The fact is that size and strength can be mean two seperate things!! Another fact is that Watts is being groomed differently under Neeld. Neeld is playing him as defender/midfielder. A role he played at the Dragons. If I had the choice to have Watts on another list today, I would say NO. He has talent and its up to the club to develop it. But if a player was thrown into the mix that was tempting, as has already been said, Watts in not indispensable. Another area that isnt discussed too much on here is, the club could not develop players at the same rate of stronger clubs due to the FD structure. The MFC were amatuer, and are yet to prove otherwise!! I like that Denham sticks the boots in. Its now up to the club to rise above the media and show the world that we are ELITE on and off the ground. Time the club walked the talk. I would love to see Watts be the one that shuts up Denham and many others on here

Just got back. There were a few people down there today, enjoying the great weather. While I remember too, there was a bloke from the Casey area letting people know there will be a BBQ and some kids activities (not sure what) at training on Friday at Casey. So get on down. Training today started with some running at the Athletics Track near the ground. Sylvia, Clisby, Gawn, Hogan and Toumpas did their own training which involved running and then skill drills with heaps of running. Toumpas' kicking skills are immaculate, as are Sylvia's kicking, on both feet. The following players did not do the sprints ; Grimes, Dawes, Magner, N. Jones, Dunn, Garland, Joel Mac, Tapscott, Fitzy, and the 5 named above. These guys are all coming back from slight niggles and were not asked to do the hard sprints. The others did 5 x 300m sprints, all at full pace. They were in groups, I think they were in groups from fittest to not so fit. I may miss some names, as I did not write it all down. The first group had Howe, Nicho, T Mac, Couch, Viney, Evans, McKenzie The second group was M. Jones, Pederson, Davis, Frawley, Watts, Tynan, Strauss, Byrnes, Rodan, Barry The third group was Blease, Spencer, Gillies, Jamar, Davey, Kent, Terlich, Sellar, Jetta, Taggert The guys who were the most consistent and at the front are underlined. Howe dropped out after 4 good runs and looked ill and both Jones and Barry dropped out after 2 or 2, not looking too well. The battlers were Davey (but he did it all and you could see he was trying), Rodan (not his style of running really) and the younger blokes on occasions. What must be said, is that some individuals battled on 1 run but then pushed hard through the next one. From what I can see there has been a great overall improvement, and they worked bloody hard. After the running they went back to the ground to do drills. Almost everyone joined in these drills, except for Clarke, Trengove, Sylvia, Gawn, Toumpas, M Jones and Howe. The first few drills were in close hands, quick movement and protcection. The voice and skills were really good. Next they did a drill which was based on the defenders trying to get the ball out of the backline and carry it down the field while the forwards were putting pressure on. In this, the forwards were trying to keep their zone up, work on forward pressure and hold their lines while the defenders had to move the ball quickly and hit targets. At the same time there were guys on the bench and players had to continually rotate. It is great practice to see how well the zone holds up with player coming on and off the ground. The pressure and voice was most impressive in this drill. The decision making has still got room for improvement. You can see the style of game thogh in this drill. They are trying to move the ball quickly and always had 1 or 2 forwards up forward to be a target. The next part of training they split into groups where some players were working on their kicks under pressure while the rest were doing a 6 on 6 drill trying to work their way though under pressure. I left after this, as it was already 12, and they were about to head back into a drill. Maybe someone can fill in anything I missed. I thought it was a great session, especially working hard under fatigue. Again, all the drills involved the following points (which I think are rapidly improving at the club): * hard 2 way running * maximum pressure (to the point where N Jones and Kent had a wrestle after a tackle) * pressure on decision making as the drill is generally stopped and started again when a mistake is made * guys on the mark are running up to the mark at full pace and pressuring the kicker * the voice and guidance is great * the ball is moving quickly, there is not much stopping and kicking over the mark The guys who impressed more most in the session today, overall, were Evans (looks really fit), Tynan (can see a real athlet in him), Kent (worked really hard all the time),Gillies (skills look akward, but work, but he looks to be a smart defender), Frawley(looks really fit and ran well and he did well in the defensive drills), Spencer (putting real pressure on Jamar for the #1 ruck, and his kicking skills are vastly improved). I can see the pressure on all players now as the depth is better than it has been in a while, and players are going to have to work hard for a spot in the team (finally). If you have any questions, happy to answer them. Cheers.

Many of the kids I teach give me grief over supporting Melbourne. Of course I obtain revenge by downgrading their marks and writing them poor reports.

Three seasons ago Richmond were being compared with Fitzroy and there were bets on whether they'd win one game for the season. Now not only does every man and his dog have them playing finals this year, but some are even boldly predicting top 4. Perceptions change when people see hard evidence, everything else is just talk. Win and shut people up, lose and reinforce their already held beliefs. Part of the problem is that Melbourne supporters, including yours truly, predicted how good we'd become with the maturation of Scully, Trengove, Gysberts, Morton, Strauss, Maric, Watts, and Blease. Half of those are no longer at the club and the other half have hardly fired a shot. Is it any wonder that opposition supporters doubt Melbourne ?

Good lord, Sloony, please wear a name badge to the footy in future so I know not to let my 5yr old wander into your path in the event of a Sloonatic fight.

Dogs in Space. Saw it on ABC2 last saturday night. Set in the Melbourne Punk scene 1978. Stands up very well. Had a good friend in it who played a small but important role. He died a few years after it was made so it was great to see him again. Highly recommend it.

since we are being retrospectively hounded by the AFL, keeping with that theme, I will retrospectively out myself and say that i didnt vote but I was an unabashed Juice lover. I always claimed that he could have been anything and I was proven right - he turned out to be anything but an AFL footballer - damn.