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The unfortunate thing about this "investigation" is how much it sings of McCarthyism - a disgraceful episode in US history, and one that I had hoped I wouldn't observe in any area in Australia in 2012/3. Everything in this current "investigation" seems to be based on wholly unreliable innuendo. In my observation to date, the investigators and the commentators conducting this "show trial" are unsophisticated in the extreme and seem determined to achieve an outcome irrespective of whether the underlying evidence actually supports such a conclusion/outcome. It's interesting to note the description of McCarthyism on Wikipedia to see the similarities to the way in which this "investigation" seems to have been conducted: "McCarthyism is the practice of making accusations of disloyalty, subversion, or treason without proper regard for evidence. It also means "the practice of making unfair allegations or using unfair investigative techniques, especially in order to restrict dissent or political criticism." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism I wouldn't mind going to court on this. I suspect it wouldn't be particularly pleasant for the likes of the "investigators" or Ms Wilson if we did take that step.

I love the increasing use of the phase "up to" as in "up to a dozen people". Can I add that up to 35,000 MFC supporters always take the most pessimistic view. Of course, I may mean the one or two who boldly state things like "the entire 2009 coaching team has rolled over". The other 34,998 supporters may prefer to wait for real evidence.

Is it too much for the following question to be asked of the AFL by the MFC? "Why after clearing us at the time, have you launched another investigation purely on the say so of a former disgruntled player, who never said we tanked, but rather that the club was experimenting and not making winning the be all and end all, yet not investigated other clubs whose coach, assistant coach and players have said their clubs tanked to get draft picks and certain players"? Next question, "why have you singled out the MFC alone, for this lengthy, costly, disruptive, heavy handed investigation"?

The investigation was surely into whether the Melbourne Football Club actually committed any breaches of the AFL's rules and not about the philosphy of its football department insofar as list management was concerned. In any event, all of the evidence to date indicates that MFC's list management was consistent with Demetriou's directives and what had been done before by other AFL clubs which had met the AFL's approval. The only guilty party here is the instigator who told the On the Couch panellists that he left because of the experimentation when he left because the club he went to offered him more money. I trust that the MFC makes this abundantly clear when it makes its submission to the AFL.

As mentioned previously, my very old dog has had a Dee's membership for many years. She sleeps on her Dees blanket and is Melbourne through and through. My new dog arrived at our house with his Collingwood football that has since mysteriously "disappeared". He is now also a proud Melbourne pet member. My husband bought a Melbourne membership to help the club out a few years back during the debt demolition days. Every year his membership renewal arrives and i just renew if for him.......he is a Collingwood supporter.

Remember these Famous Words from Andrew Demetriou “My view is that (tanking) hasn’t existed, that people have experimented, list management, whatever you want to call it.” If I’m proven to be wrong, that’s fine by me because – if someone wants to come forward and provide evidence – then we should investigate it,” Demetriou told Fox Footy Andrew Demetriou is expected to outline tomorrow sanctions that will apply to the MFC if tanking allocations are proven true The following is expected to apply Loss of one Firstround pick from 2009 , The coach involved during the tanking period will leave the Melbourne Football Club Those ex Players that tanked during this period will also leave the club. The clubs fitness coach and fitness boss at the time of the tanking event will also leave the MFC Club And last but not least The MFC will forfiet all Finals Premiership points it has won since the Tanking affair is deemed to have occured I think the above penalties are more than Fair

Absolutely nothing new here since the investigation story broke in late October/early November or to be more precise - nothing new since 2009 when Demetriou gave the club the green light to list manage at the expense of necessarily winning games. In other words, to do what several others who have not been subjected to six months' scrutiny all did and were allowed to get away with. The discussions and all of the supposedly sinister meetings that are alleged are nothing more and nothing less than what you might expect of clubs in circumstances like Melbourne's in 2009, Carlton's (2005 - 7) and a raft of others. This is not much of a case to answer because Demetriou answered it for us a long time ago.

Unity and rage. That's my MFC slogan for this year.

mjt - as a sh!t stirrer, I mark you an E- but if you hang around long enough you might improve your ranking a little because some of the best of them hang around here pretending they have the club's interests at heart. In short, you're way out of your depth.

Dean Bailey's forward spread and running patterns were outstanding - when they were on! It was the almost total absence of defensive structures around the ground that stuffed us around. Even really good defensive footballers like Chip found it tough to be defensive with no structure for support. 2013 will be a pleasure/pain year for mine. PLEASURE I don't reckon we will get beaten once by 10 goals. We will slowly become that team who is hard to beat. Most of our losses will be within 20 points. We will surprise lazy teams like Bombers, Tigers, St. Kilda and probably beat them Our skill level will finally rise. Blease, Toumpas, Watts, Clark, - these players are skillful and will be delivering into our forward 50. We get to see a spine of Frawley, McDonald, Jones, Dawes, Clark and a midfield including Trengove, McKenzie, Sylvia, Grimes, Viney, Toumpas etc... Our body size means we match it at the contest with Pies, Eagles, Hawks, Swans. PAIN Through inexperience and some brain-fades we will lose to teams we should beat - Brisbane, North Melbourne etc... Our skill level will hurt us when we think we are past the worst Our interstate record is appalling and I can't see this changing too much yet. GWS and Suns aside. 10 wins maximum for me this year.

If Toumpas and Viney become what we expect, which is no guarantee given recent history, then the list and midfield isn't a mile off, even if the output next year doesn't reflect that. In reality most top teams only have two or three "gun" mids. Those gun mids make life far easier for their other mids, which elevates their status in the football industry. Hawthorn have Mitchell and Sewell, Adelaide Thompson and Dangerfield, Collingwood Swan, Pendlebury and Beams, West Coast Priddis and Kerr, Essendon won 8 of their first 9 games on the back of Watson and Stanton. If we can unearth a couple of AA quality mids the difference in the whole sides output will be massive. We need to relegate Jones to third, or fourth best mid and not best mid. Once we do that we'll play finals regularly. Toumpas and Viney won't star next year, but they will make a real impact. And by their third years I'll be surprised if they're not feared throughout the competition. And one player that seemingly comes out of the blue, like a Lewis Jetta at Sydney, can also make a major difference. In my view, Sydney don't win the flag without Jetta. Who knows what Dom Barry may become for us, but pace, endurance, evasiveness and great kicking skills are terrific weapons to possess.

The above quote is merely confirmation of the tactics used by the investigators, which has subsequently been leaked to the HS. It isn't evidence of any wrong doing. Naturally, when one reads between the lines it "sounds" like some are squealing. The club has already complained about these tactics weeks ago, so they're well aware of how the "interrogation" was handled and have subsequently confirmed they will fight the allegations. AS PF stated, there's nothing new here. I'm still yet to hear any concrete evidence. That's not to say there isn't any, but no "smoking gun" has been leaked. There may have been associates of the club that have provided their gut feel and stated that in their view something "wasn't right", but the AFL will need more than those types of responses to hand down serious sanctions.

Happy Festivus. Cant see us winning one game in the next few weeks. In the meantime we should continue working on the Pennski file.

You give her far too much credit. If you must know, she received her information as a pay back against the Herald Sun for an article published a few weeks earlier ridiculing the tanking enquiry. The result was the Age got the leaked info. That's how it works and it's as simple as that.

Lord be praised. Hellelujah!Hellelujah! Hellelujah! Stuie has had his Paulian moment. I'm down on my knees Stuie (and I'm sure Biffen is too) . B efore you know it we will exchanging messages and private jokes!

I am astounded at the number of Dees supporters who have Magpies for partners. I have been telling my wife for 40 years that I lifted her to a much better plane in life. Then she laughs and asks when we last one a game! I think I got a good one No tatts All he teeth ( well almost at this age ) And has not been to Jail. I think I will keep her.

Now the New Year had commenced I can't help but get involved in this discussion yet again. My main concern about all of this relates to 2 main points. 1. The integrity of the AFL investigation including the apparent questionable tactics employed by their incompetent investigators. This area must be exploited by MFC legal team. 2. The so-called rollover by ex- and current employees of the MFC. This star chamber stuff must be made public to identify WHO has accused the MFC. Identify those who are wanting to bring down this club..and do it so we all know who these nasty people are. If they were threatened by AFL investigators to dob in others...THIS must be made public. Otherwise name these people who are doing the damage to the club.

I know where he was drafted, but his impact last year was sensational and unexpected, ergo, out of the blue. He changed the whole dynamics of the Swans. If he was on the open market this year he would have commanded a top 5 pick. Eighty metre players that kick goals like Jetta are worth their weight in gold.

I'm having flash backs to this time last year. so much percevied depth, so many options for starting 22's, but we know how that panned out Cant wait until round 1

"Because we are arbitrary and vindictive, not to mention inconsistent, and have shown on all issues that we make it up as we go along." "We are just as likely to find you guilty as not guilty -- we're finding our special coin right now -- and, if guilty, will invent a punishment that has no regard for precedent." "Although we can be scared off by big words and big statements and that stuff you came out about a former QC gave us pause for thought."

"TANKER MORE-ANT" Facing extinction in the face of the AFLS Bores, An Australian platoon is forced to "take no prisoners" in the heat of combat in which it is hopelessly outgunned. The resulting court martial is a mixture of rough justice and administrative disaster in which the Aussie Officers are crucified to appease a rabid news readership. An iconic Aussie tale of a battling unit fighting imperial ineptitude. Starring Bryan Brown-Nose (Adrian Anderson) Peter Sellers as Inspector Haddad and Jackie (Fairy -Tale) Weaver as Kero Wilson This could be huge -if only it wasn't so far fetched.

Er ... before anyone here rushes out to your favourite bookshop (if it still exists) or to whoever supplies what was once known as books through kindle to purchase The Trial in the hope that it's on par with A salute to the great McCarthy, I suggest you hold your horses. Kafka's a bit of an acquired taste - you need to be seen carrying it around a university campus for at least two semesters before you start on page 1.

Interesting but you haven't enlightened us about the obviously flawed information Wilson has provided over the journey (aside from the obvious incorrect dates, times and player information which her editors rather shabbily corrected without the expected notes as to why the information was edited). I mean the disputed versions of what constituted the "vault", why those meetings were called and why others have described as 30 second asides what Wilson stated were fundamental to the objectives of the supposedly sinister "vault". The fact is that we've all been had, you included.And I also checked with Tom Waterhouse to see if there was a "market" only to discover that like a great deal else in this sorry scenario, even the market is "smoke and mirrors" - it doesn't exist. That is not to say that the AFL is not of a mind to back its investigative team and lay charges. However, it hasn't done so to date but rather, it opted for a strange process in that it put the "evidence" it has before the MFC in the hope of nutting out a plea bargain. That to me is indicative of a lot of things but the accuracy of Wilson's editorial diatribe isn't one of them. If Wilson was as good as you think then she would, in that piece, have enlightened her readers of what charges specifically, the club was about to face. Neither she nor Clark today, have done that. Perhaps that's because the AFL are still working on confecting a new offence that the club might be charged with if it decides to go that way after reading Ray Finkelstein's submission. As far as I'm concerned, the tanking issue was most accurately distilled in the work not of Caroline Wilson or Jay Clark but by an obscure writer of football tales named Franz Kafka in The Trial. Heavy going but more accurate on the subject matter and a very worthwhile read.

Sorry Prof.CBD yes forgot my question mark. Here tis????????? This will make up for any that I may have forgotten in the past and those that I will forget in the future. Think I've covered all bases.

Demetriou has clearly given the green light to list management & experimenting. It's on the record. Can they then prove our intent was otherwise. Very difficult I would have thought. Matters not at all what former officials & players opinions might be. Was anyone told to go out & lose? This is the crux of it. Without that smoking gun, it is all open to an individual's interpretation of events.

?... that question could apply to 99.999% of those who post on here... not just ABC employees. I have never understood the animosity directed at the ABC myself... especially when you consider the ownership of commercial networks/press and their often unabashed political leanings. And before anyone jumps on the taxpayer funded bus, we all pay for the other networks in one way or another.

I think it is time to add Jay Clark to our list of #$%*s who should be blackballed by our club let 'em eat cake

please...just overlook the reality that Viney ISNT a 1st year recruit, hes been in our system a year. And Jimmy boy is hardly your average draftee having already played SANFL. They are far from 'way off" just about every scribe has them INKED in for round one. I think youre a lone voice mate.

Yes it is amazing how much rests on the AFL retrospecively trying to put a different interpretaion on the letter of their regulations. It is a bit like tax minimisation (legal where one works within the rules) and tax evasion (illegal where one works outside the rules). Surely whatever we did was within the letter of the rules as they are currently (badly?) written whatever our intent (whch was after all judged to be for the greater good of the Club at that point in time). Just as many people try to preserve their wealth in their tax management so I suspect everybody at Melbourne at the time (and other teams) were trying to do the best for the health and longevity of the Club. I don't think anybody at Melbourne actually broke any rules even if they worked within them. If anything comes out of this inquiry, it should not be penalties for Melbourne but the AFL doing an overhaul of their rules to avoid a repeat of whatever concerns them. In an ideal world everybody would follow the intent of the law but in reality all we are obliged to do is follow the letter of the law!

I know we've expected it and McLardy has said we'll fight, but I have heard that before.... Don't get me wrong, I really like Don and think he's a smart guy, I just desperately want us to fight hard for once.

You've proved my point... Again it's feeling like groundhog day.Same argument different wording. We know what they are focusing on, who they have interviewed, how they have interviewed, the conspiracy theories involved and where it's currently at. I seriously doubt anyone has 'rolled over'. My gutt feeling is that there is no hardcore evidence and most of it is heresay fuelled from anyone who is disgruntled such as Brock. Just getting boring that every time I log onto DL there is some bs same but new article, someone trying to oust someone else as having a vested interest with a previous or current board, and the loyalty of supporters and posters... I went into hibernation since 2008 to the start of this season- maybe time to do it again. Wake me up when all this bulls$&t is over.

I'm starting to care less about the outcome and more about how we fight. I'm expecting some form of punishment one way or another, but this feels like a defining moment for us and if we don't put everything into fighting it then we truly have no soul as a club.

rolled over...well well. Big statement there. The fight begins.

Pretty sure WYL is listening chief. Bailey's game was run and carry, most of the time backwards, sideways or the wrong way. I think WYL was saying that considering the MCG is our home ground, how is it our players haven't figured out how to use its open spaces to their advantage. But firstly they need to be fit enough...that's the starting point.

Yes.

To quote my favourite Calvin & Hobbes: Calvin: When a person pauses in mid-sentence to choose a word, thats the best time to jump in and change the subject! Its like an interception in football! You grab the other guys idea and run the opposite way with it! The more sentences you complete, the higher your score! The idea is to block the other guys thoughts and express your own! Thats how you win! Hobbes: Conversations arent contests! Calvin: OK, a point for you, but Im still ahead.

Hara Kiri?

How easily we forget at times that Chunk is but 24.

I was in Melbourne from Sydney, so I went down to watch. The term "The Sound of One Hand Clapping" came to mind. I was the only person watching other than a Herald Sun photographer looking for the players who were ejected from the MCG at the Cricket. Seriously, get a life - it was after all, only the first and second year players. There were only nine players there. Apparently it was meant to be eleven but Jack Viney and Jimmy Toumpas couldn't change their flights. Go figure. I got there at 9.30am and they were already training, they walked off at about 10.40. Jesse Hogan was doing agility running, then just laps on his own, then sat out the final stages of the training. I asked him how he was finding it and he said "Full on." Looked a bit forlorn sitting there on his own. He had been in Perth with the family over Christmas, so I don't blame him. I know it's been said many times before but up close and personal he is a very big unit. Just hope we get a contract extension out of him when the time comes. The other eight players were the four rookies headed by Couch and Magner who was leading the group in the running drills closely shadowed by Dom Barry, who was the only other one in the group who looked like he had elite fitness. Couch wasn't keeping up with them which is interesting as he was a stand out last pre season. The two newest recruits, the rookies, Stark and Clisby were clearly struggling. Not surprising, you wouldn't want to come into this training so many weeks behind. At one stage one of them was passed by one of the coaches doing some of the laps with them. Not a good look. The group was doing some competitive hand ball games. Looked pretty scratchy but it is first day back. Then a lot of running. You need to see this up close to appreciate how hard these guys are working. It's hard. Magner had a good chuck in front of me. He was busting a gut, thats for sure. I will try to attach a couple of photos.

Saw this advertising truck driving round the streets of Brisbane just around the corner from the Lion's Den... Seems Scully might be looking to move further north?!

Peter Falk, alias Columbo, bless his soul... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yuevpFTS_po

It's such a pity that Maldon Boy's excellent post found itself mixed up with the detritus in the remainder of the thread. Perhaps MB could post it elsewhere because it's a hot night, this thread generally offends against most aspects of the COC and it's time to say goodbye to this sorry mess of what once was a topic in someone's mind. Goodbye.

Apoc who gave her the info the AFL or was it a renegade ex MFC employee as we are led to believe.

i will get some iced vo vo's

I'm going back to demonology at least they talk about footy and not [censored] about the ABC or whatever

Come on Biff........... give Jackie Weaver a break. I'd try Andy Serkis as Kero. If he can do Gollam, he is in the ballpark.

"divisive, axe-grinding, petulant, grudge bearing, not a team player" Ok Ok You've pinged me.

Christ it is hot!

Because we don't have a Demon representative on the commission. no Red n Blue at all, just blue... if pats cap fits the Rick

Is that the one where Achilles Jones, the star recruit from the bush, is brought up before the tribunal but they won't tell him what he's charged with? At the risk of being branded a Wilson-lover, I don't like your analogy. You are seeing this as a Stalinist scenario -- secretive brutality. I see it more along the lines of '80s Romania, or maybe '70s Uganda, where unstable buffoons ran the show and did so on personal whims which could change at any moment. Wilson is like a black market businessman making good from the scraps created by the chaos. (I learned all this background material while carrying around "The Trial" for two semesters.)