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I doubt it. -> Neeld noted that in many midfield KPIs in the second half of the year we were on par or even better than our opposition. The problem here was a total lack of a forward line. Mitch went down, and we had noone behind him, hence Judy and Riv playing at CHF and FF - total joke. Assuming we keep pace with the KPIs, the return of Mitch as well as the addition of Dawes and Pederson will simply give the midfield a target. -> In addition, you have to look at the reasons for departure. Dawes was forced into that 2nd ruck/forward role - a role which he himself said didn't suit him, and which Neeld has stated he will not use him in. Pederson was trying to break into a forward line which had Petrie as the lynchpin. Byrnes was shut out due to Scott going to a 'play-the-kids-where-possible' philosophy - and I don't necessarily think he just came in for onfield impact anyway. Same with Rodan. -> If you straight-swap Viney for Moloney, Terlich for Rivers and Morton for Toumpas, are we REALLY any worse? Terlich probably, but he'll offer rebound off half-back that Rivers didn't. Furthermore, Sellar can slot into that stop-the-gorilla role that he did well at times this year. The reality is, 2013 is Neeld's true *first* year. He took 2012 to evaluate where the list was at and was found wanting. So he culled heavily, brought in tools he could trust in and is seeking to push from there.

As a regular training watcher I can assure the OP that we won't be going backwards. I could mention the improved forward-line - with Dawes and Pedersen complimenting Clark we no longer have a front half of pygmies; I could mention the continued maturity of the defence - with Watts training there all preseason, and Nicholson and McDonald, et al, continuing to gain experience to ease pressure and help release Frawley; I could mention the midfield that has lost nothing, but gained an injection of class with Viney, Toumpas, a rejuvenated Trengove, and the big Kent; I could mention that I haven't seen the main training group this large at this time of year in a long while; but these are bit parts that add to the bigger picture. We will be better because our fitness levels, strength, understanding of the game-plan, and competition for spots will be nothing like last year. Even our running patterns at training, i.e defending and spreading, is far better. When they run to position they run with purpose. They sprint hard and they're more vocal. Our work at the stoppages is noticeably better - thanks to Viney and Rodan helping Jones. The poor fitness levels of 2012 meant that Melbourne struggled to run both ways last year. They couldn't defend, or play Neeld's game-plan because of their poor fitness base. They got sucked into contests only to be burnt on the spread. They'd have an OK quarter against a top 8 team, but couldn't sustain it, which is a hallmark of young sides lacking fitness and match hardening. Things will be much different next year. That's not to say that I don't rate our inclusions, I do, and they serve a really important ingredient to the club's overall psyche. Fitness, strength, and a unified team all backing the coach and his vision does wonders. You can tell at training that everyone is on the same page. And the injection of class and leadership in the club helps foster trust and confidence. With those intangible ingredients you start developing momentum. You get players "buying in". It's all part of a seismic culture shift. And it's happening right now. I don't think we'll make the 8 next year, but I have no doubt that the dark years are over and that we're on the incline. Supporters will notice a tangible improvement next year. There will still be inconsistent performances that send Demonland into meltdown, but there will also be wins against teams we haven't beaten in years and a sense of purpose that hasn't been evident for some time. Some will prefer to not believe, such is their want, but I'm going to enjoy summer in the knowledge that this club has turned the corner.

Just what we need - another negative thread. Of course we could go backwards. Anything is possible after all, But really, what's the point of asking people to comment on this? Before you know it we'll have 70 or 80 pages of tripe from all the negative Nellies out there. Did you really mean that without Cale Morton we might go backwards? Hard to replace this...

My favourite part of the article was when Caro said "Collingwood are a powerful, successful, rich club who could withstand a scandal." She's almost apologising for trying to bring that scandal to them! C. Wilson has gone completely mad.

Used to think the same of Jeff Kennett. It's not the case.

More genuine targets, more ready made players, more competent kickers of the footy, a second pre-season to close the gap (as well as recruits coming from high fitness bases) and a playing group which has had time to acclimatise to the new coaching regime. Can we go backwards? - it's possible. Will we go backwards (by our standards)? - no. Will we go backwards relative to the rest of the league (even if we improve our own standards/structure) - quite unlikely.

I'm finding elements to this thread to border on the hilarious. The negativity , the pessimism and the seemingly blind indifference to change. it also reminds me of the old adage about a Broom.. Yeah, its still 'original" ...yeah the handle been replaced 5 times and the head 4 , but its still "original" !!! Weve gone from a 1999 model base model clapped out one tonner to a recent model 3 tonner with more than a few handy options !! What we would have struggled with last year we will make a decent fist of in 13. Yes other teams will have changed also but dont expect too much out of the giants as they are still predominantly a bunch of kids and we all know how well that goes. A lot of "potential " there for sure. A team of seasoned MEN will maul them !! simple as. Look for the Giants to trade out and up to more seasoned players over the next few years to address that very shortcoming. Have no doubt they are 'banking ' players to do just that. The Suns will light up the bottom of the ladder again, just watch. For us to go backwards we would have had to remained the same whilst others improved their lists. That simply hasnt been the case. To the nay-sayers show me 1...yep just ONE area we havent addressed and are worse in !! go on.. I'm waiting. Dont give me that crap either about losing Green . Rivers Barty and Moroney ( intentional ). As WJ has already well addressed this in reality wasnt a huge loss and more than ably compensated ( x3 ) by recent additions We wont be flying til about 14/15 but we will be dead set seriously competitive in 13. The list now comprises footy players ( and not namby pamby wannabes and look at me traffic cops ) who WANT to be there, WANT to play Neeldy's game and WANT to win. Could we go backwards...... Only if Hell ices up !!

On the question of whether we can go backwards, its always a possibility. We can rookie draft a certain former Tiger next week who could influence our cultcha negatively so his teammates end up turning up to games asleep. Half the list could spend the off season belting the living suitcases out of their relatives with machetes. A member of the Comancheros motorbike gang could be elected to the Board at the AGM. Our sponsors could all turn out to be closet Nazis. Somebody might falsely accuse the entire football department of racism. The selectors could drop our ten best players for the GWS game and replace them with untried rookies. The AFL might force us to take Cale Morton and pick 88 back and we could appoint Greg Denham and Caroline Wilson our no 1 male and female supporters respectively. Can we go backwards? [censored] yeah!

Has anyone seen him without his footy gear on? Is there a cape, speedos outside his pants, and a big S on his front? "Faster than a speeding bullet, more powerful than a locomotive, able to leap tall buildings at a single bound"

By necessity Neitz became a forward when the Ox went down; if not for that he could have become one of the great CHB's of all time. In my opinion he was much better in the backline and unfortunately when he went forward he lost a bit, he was still good there but not as good.

This whole tread started on the notion that we can go backwards, because morton played well in one game, so the troll is saying that we will win three games, because morton played well in the only one game he did, anyway, one of the biggest reasons we beat essdon,is because garland played a blinder at chf, and watts beat the brownlow winner, one on one in the last qtr, they both are still on the list.

In my opinion 264 games of which 244 were without a break and a Brownlow medal makes you a great of the game

In round 4, 2000 Matthew Richardson suffered exactly the same injury. The following year (2001) he played every game and kicked 59 goals. Richmond finished 4th for one of their few finals appearances over the last 30 years. You may well be right about Clark, but please expand upon your opinion.

How to beat a Victorian side other than Ess and Rich

What if we beat West Coast , Adelaide and Freo. i'd count that as improvement.

This is more of a David Neitz thread than a Jack Trengove thread... so, in order to not disrupt the conversation I'll stay "on topic": David Neitz was an MFC champion. He was an All-Australian at both ends of the ground, a Coleman Medal winner, the MFC games AND goals record holder, and he captained us to many finals and even a Grand Final. Despite this resume, however, he is not a champion of the game. As great as he was, I could name 10 FFs off the top of my head who I would put ahead of Neita. I loved watching him play, and he will remain an MFC icon forever, but to me he is no more than that. Jimmy Stynes, on the other hand, was a great of the game. I don't see how anybody could say otherwise.

Could we go backwards? Absolutely not. Last year the Club took a ruthless approach to changing the philosophy that had been in place for 4 or 5 years. The 100% youth policy has been replace by a desire to recruit mature players to support young bodies, players perceived to have poor attitudes and limited physical abilities have been replaced and we have recruited 2 top 5 players. IMO list management has been exceptional in terms of achieving the goals the FD desired. Watts, Strauss, Blease, McKenzie, Trengove, Tapscott and Howe are all players who will start to mature significantly and become competitive AFL players. We were taken back to ground zero last year, we couldn't perform worse. Nothing but significant improvement in 2013 would be acceptable.

I really don't think we will or even can go backwards next year. I just don't see how this list has been anything but improved. If we do end up managing to go backwards...I don't even want to begin to think about what this site is going to do.

I agree BB59. Some people use the rearview mirror to see where they are going, others decide where they want to end up an set off down that path. With Neeld, Craig and co they have confirmed their destination as "the hardest team to play" and are moving aggressively to arrive there. 2013 should be fascinating and an improvement on the past five years.

I used to read the Age all the time but not anymore with that [censored] Wilson writing. She does not have one positive word to say about anyone or any club, she just wants blood.

I am going to treat my myself to a banana souffle. Will probably have a banana fritter at the local chinese restaurant sunday.

Disgraceful slander of a magnificent thread WJ, I will be speaking to Finkelstein QC on monday. Thanks Nasher, for bringing back the thread. So many peoples' lives have now been enriched again.

I like your posts Tas.Some of the conservative suff here is so Hackneyed and ridiculous. "They start with pot and then progress onto harder stuff etc." I know there are some sad stories with persian rugs and I have known many people who've died from their over-use or related illnesses. To assume that a few guy who plays AFL footy and snort coke/ smoke pot constitute "a problem" is ridiculous . It's a problem when it destroys someones entire life ,family etc of course but the greatest cause of this in our society BY FAR is alcohol. The AFL will never attack the alcohol lobby and were reluctant to have to give up the ciggy dollar too. You cannot stop people drinking,ingesting,smoking ,snorting etc. You cannot stop teams"experimenting" for draft picks. You cannot stop Caros agenda driving Adrian and Andy into "action".

Ian Richardson has been on the cusp of selection in previous drafts going back a few years now. I mentioned him a little while ago in State League Prospects However, I thought Mark Neeld suggested after the national draft that he would be looking for young blood in the rookie draft.

Unless a miracle happens, Hastings will be a one test wonder. Props to his nuggety innings with the bat, but it's not what he's there for. All three of the specialist quicks have been bloody hopeless though. This test is all but lost, on day two. I'm feeling very blah now after what had been a great series so far. Couldn't even be farked watching the last hour.

Bump.

Bartram's knee was gone, Bone on bone. Miracle cure didn't work. Would still be here if it did They love down there. Davey got a big pay cheque. Good for him. Negotiated well. Older players that can evolve their game to the coaches wishes such as JMcD will still get a game. Davey hasnt shown he can do that. IN fact he has shown the opposite. Giving him the benefit of the doubt his body is gone. Unfortunately his mind and body language doesn't show he is doing his best to rectify the situation.

Yes, damn those hard working, dedicated spuds!

Caroline Wilson's credibility took another blow today when Liam Pickering dismissed suggestions she made in a recent article in Fairfax Media that the Collingwood star has a lifestyle problem. Dane Swan's manager says the Collingwood star is just fine and has no lifestyle issues "There wasn't a lot of facts to it,'' Pickering said of the call to sack Swan. Fairfax Media is ailing badly. It's circulation is plummeting and Whispering Jack Media understands that its local newspaper is about to go tabloid in an attempt to regain circulation and its long lost prestige. The tip is that if its chief football writer keeps up her recent trend of shlock journalism, the paper doesn't have a chance against the HUN which does that thing so much better.

I chose option C.

Knightmare does a good job, but he overrates Macrae and changes his mind quite a lot depending on the latest flavours of the month. I reckon Quigley is a far better junior watcher than Knightmare. I'd say that Viney was a top 7 selection. He's always been rated higher than Wines and it's worth remembering that Port bid pick 7 for Viney, although I acknowledge that was to keep us honest. I struggle to think that the Bulldogs would have let Hogan go with one of their two picks if he was available, such is their dearth of quality key forwards, so my guess is we picked up three top 7 quality players. That's a great result from a draft that is acknowledged as being good at least at the pointy end.

Add Hogan in 2014 and we have one hell of a forward line

Yes we could. Also in "could/might/maybe" happenings: a giant comet could strike the Earth. But there's nothing to be gained in thinking about it. You're just keeping yourself awake at night.

My latest conspiracy theory is that Caroline Wilson is actually on the MFC payroll. She's been employed to finish off the outstanding work of our late President. Jim played a huge role in uniting a fractured club and Wilson's public attack on the Dees has seen many of us pull together with a shared enemy as our focus! Maybe Fan knew more than he was letting on when he said, "Keep up the good work Caro".

Chippy... I just felt the need to get the thread happening.. it will roll of its own accord I am a bit pumped in a fashion. For years , ne decades we've needed to really take the pruning shears to the Rosebush and get it back to health. Neeld ( & FD ) have done this. far too long coming but its come. Serious inadequacies have been addressed in the list whilst at the same time lancing the soft marzipan from the heart of the team. For too long like the icing, its looked good whilst hiding that we didnt have much of a cake to boot. There no real telling yet just how furtive teh new team will be but in all areas either total lackings or the shallowness have been looked at and addressed. Mids...well the traffic cops and skeletal boys have been moved on. Into the void some genuine bonefide acknowledged talent with pedigree have been injected. Inside and out, new faces. Rucks have been augmented. The back lien can return to being a backline and not a part time wandering lot of stand in forwards. Preseasons will add to the strength and girth as well as aplomb of this part of the list. The fwd end, the glamour end hasnt gone without attention either. No longer will our attack revolved or land squarely at the foot of one. Twin pillars of focus along with seasoned opportunists have been added. There some games in 2012 we all most one but for a qtr and a bloke or two; amazing really having been so undermanned. This tells me there are already some decent footballers but they simply couldnt do it alone. They wont have to anymore. So much of footy is confidence. Thats contagious. With players supporting each other better and more ably equiped logic alone suggest a quantum improvement is just around the corner. Just about every position is up for grabs and theres more players available than slots. No one is going to want to drop their game lest they find it a hard path to get back in. I have no doubt at times ( in past ) some blokes would have looked around and thought "who's kidding who here".....we're stretched beyond ability. it gets hard to get yourselves up sometimes as you just know it wot matter. Its all different now. Troops are better, the munitions are there. Just need the desire and occasion to let rip. There are going to be, like some suggest, some folks very surprised by the Melbourne of 2013. But it wont be perfect. it never will be . There will always be comings and goings, tweakings and refinements. As a coach Neeld has some chance of implementing a style that can be carried out. The foundations were put in last season for some. Others coming in already know the work required. Kids ( relative ) will now be chaperoned by Grand finalists, premiership players indeed. Some will relish not having to carry the can alone, others will thrive playing alongside more experienced players. The tenet will lift dramatically. cant wait

I do not profess to have knowledge of the cultural divide that separates us but the thing that irked me was the complete lack of acknowledgment of the support the club had given him - I would have been happy enough for his manager or the club to make a statement on Liam's behalf "Liam has asked me to thank.....etc". I would be surprised if Liam's culture does not find the giving of appreciation necessary. I restate that I have no knowledge of the culture but I believe that it is a basic human trait that spans all cultures that when levels of support and help are given, appreciation/acknowledgment is shown/given in return

You misspelled "God".

I believe LJ's behaviour towards the MFC has set back the opportunities for other players like him. Rather than being seen as a hard working committed footballer, he is now seen as a troubled and ungrateful man. The words of Matthew Rendell do unfortunately ring loud and true in this case. Most understand his background and the difficulties contained therein, especially when related to forging an AFL career, that is what Rendell was getting at. He was not being racist, he was accepting that a difficult situation existed and that some clubs would choose not to take the risk, which of course is their right and probably obligation. LJ has not helped that. Leave aside the court case and the violence incident, for the moment and just concentrate on his departure. LJ never thanked the club for its time and effort, in trying to help him become an AFL footballer, in helping his community and in helping him with his court case, nor did he in any way seek to help us get some compensation via a trade. He walked out before the end of the season, a season in which he played one game and was probably paid his full and generous salary without a thought for us. If he is that keen in November to play with Port he would have been somewhat keen at least earlier and we could have done a deal to help him and us, without his football reputation being devalued, as it now has. His behaviour is excused by his mentor on here and if that is the way he was brought up, so be it, there are of course different cultures and we are each a product to some extent of our upbringing. I don't condemn him for that, if that is the expected behaviour of him by his people. That however does give AFL clubs the right to look at the individual and say, he is too difficult to take on. That is is the recruiter's right. If recruiters now see people like LJ as too hard, that is not their fault. They also should not be condemned for not taking on talent that comes with far greater difficulties than other possible recruits. The job is to create the best list they can and if things make that difficult they are not honour bound to go with the hardest task but rather one would assume the easiest. That is where I think LJ has let everyone down. On a personal note I invested a lot of my hope in LJ, went to his book launch, spoke to him when we met, read all the articles about him and was really proud of his attempts to become an AFL player and ours of supporting him. I am personally disappointed in the outcome, but that is life. What I find most disappointing is that his leaving and the manner of it makes me not care in the slightest about LJ the man and that really disappoints me. I suppose many would call that my fault and so be it, but I can't help but feel that LJ has helped foster that feeling. Wonder if he would acknowledge that in any way.

Chances are that one or two of the blokes that we have let go will succeed at another club. That won't mean that we will have made a mistake. The list needs to be looked at as an entity on it's own and not as a group of indivduals.

I lost 10 years to drugs and wish i could tell lot's of young men what i went through. Thank god for my wife and kids. Drugs are evil.

We looked after him and cared for him because it was the right thing to do. Strong cultures and clubs are built on organisations that are tight knit and look after one another. The fabric we wove to support Liam will, hopefully, hold us in good stead for the future amongst the players that are there now and will come into the future. We didn't look after him in the hope of getting compensation for him should he walk. We did it because it was the right thing to do. Good on us. We can hold our heads up proudly and say that we did the utmost to help a member of our community and a member of our club. His situation away from, and inside of (to a much, much lesser extent), football has indeed been very sad and I wish him all the best in his career and, more importantly, his life.

Why would you want your 30 year olds training the house down in November???? Aaron did not have the best of years but he had so many friends,it is unfair to single him out.. How many times did the ball get turned over in the midfield??/ ....Very hard for a small forward to shine in our team in 2012 The club signed him on a four year contract......He is honoring that contract...as he should...and as the club should... I hope he gets over these injuries and works up to match fitness in MARCH 2013...and can be a useful member of our side.... I hate the way people stick the knifes in when a player heads into retirement ...

I have been a Davy fan for a long time I put down his last few seasons performance to injury and I thought many where being a bit rough on him However I have reapraised how I feel about him and his continuation at Melbourne . Unfortunately I also now believe that his best is behind him . However for what ever reason he is still on our list So rather then be negative towards this, I am hoping that Aaron can put his best together for one last season and go out on at least a solid note and remind all of us why we valued him as a player. I think hes 29 years old now so this is most likely his last chance . If he cant do that then unfortunately he will be just another bit player in the overall scheme of the clubs history . Leaving no enduring memory of why we all loved to watch him play.

Small crumbing forward remains a need. Anthony Tipungwuti and Brian Coleman-Broome are the two I'd look at.

Kent.

Unbelievably, I find myself agreeing with Tonatopia on this topic. People are writing this young boy off as though he's already had umpteen chances a la Fev, Cousins etc ... It's ridiculous. Read him the riot act, put him on a one-strike rule and then leave it up to him. One stuff up and he's out. How does that hurt the club? If taking such a "risk" means we have the next Cyril Rioli on our hands (quite possible given his talent) I don't think we are in a position as a club to knock back that kind of talent.

He was probably organising things with Dale Roberts (but keep it quiet)

I chose other, I would redraft Jai Sheahan, showed heaps in the finals at Casey (one of the few) great kick, can play either end.

Surprised no-one picked up Dale Roberts Our propaganda plan seems to have worked. Can pick him up cheap as a rookie?