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Mate, I can't... You just... (sigh) Bate cannot be traded.

l'm not interested in commenting on or about Liam other than to say he has always deeply loved playing for Melbourne footy club, bringing its supporters joy and playing with his 'brothers'. Unfortunately this has obviously been a year from hell for him. His own health and wellbeing is more important than anything of course, even AFL footy! Being with family right now is the best thing for that. But l do want to respond to the suggestion earlier in the thread re. Rudeboy as someone who lives in Yuendumu and who knows Liam and Rudeboy well. Rudeboy has spent literally thousands of hours working to support his friend Liam to return to play with Melbourne this year. Let alone before this year in helping to make it happen with Liam and Melbourne in the first place. Melbourne Football club officials themselves would be the first to confirm this, as they have had constant contact and joint efforts with Rudeboy this year in supporting Liam, most especially through Craig Lees. They should both be commended for their unerring efforts in supporting Liam through his nightmare of a year. l know Liam does. The idea that Rudeboy has done anything other than support Liam to returning to try play with Melbourne throughout the year (as Liams clearly expressed desire) would be highly offensive if it wasn't so laughable.

Liam is in Adelaide staying with some family members, while he sorts out his future plans. I don't intend to comment on his situation at all, other than to commend the club for the support they have provided Liam during his year from hell. I would love to see him continue playing in the red and blue for another 8 years, but to be perfectly frank, my main concern is for Liam's well-being and happiness.

Taking one for the team, good man!

I have a feeling though that you would give your left nut for just one game (good or bad) Don't be such an ungracious [censored]

Disingenuous to say the least. A little grace occasionally would not kill you

Chill out folks This pantomime is yet to play out. There could be more twists to come Remember it's not over till the fat lady sings Keep the faith (a little longer) - no need to panic

No need to apologise mate, but thanks anyway. Footy people are passionate and it's what helps make the game so wonderful. I understand completely why some people might vent their frustration in all sorts of directions, including mine. I've got a thick hide mate. Also, I know that most Dees supporters continue to love Liam and give him their support. Let's hope he returns, has a great pre-season and turns on a blinder in 2013.

Well done Brad. On your career, yes. But more so on your personal life. Off-field you're a triple Brownlow medallist in my eyes.

Of course the emotions of every Demons supporter were split as the siren went between wanting a win versus the reward if we didn't. Can't blame anyone but the AFL for putting clubs and the supporters in that position. The sensible outcome of all this should be that the AFL states that the rules at the time could lead to the appearance of tanking (or some other word better defined) so we have changed the rules and will change them further and we are setting up a working party to examine options like those used in the USA.

What about a new posting name - GRUN DEE?

Yes, things that are possible are usually more likely than things that are impossible...

It is grasping at straws to suggest that the football team has been bad because of the judgement of supporters. That is just magical thinking gaga nonsense. Trying to defend yourself by bagging others when you've been smarmy without cause just adds to your online character nicely. Notice the difference in the way brad is treated in this thread and the way you are. Take you time. Just sayin'. And I am being disengenuous.

I was listening to Passion Pits new album yesterday and came across the song 'Cry like a Ghost'. The Chorus goes: 'Sylvia, right back where you came from You're a pendulum, heartbroken and numb but Sylvia, no one's gonna tell you when enough's enough Enough is enough' I think the pendulum reference and 'enough is enough' was very relevant as we see the best and worst from Col. Ah made me laugh

My analysis of historical contract negotiations played out in the media is its merely a discussion of whether its a 2 year deal vs a 3 year deal. Reckon MFC would like the 3 year deal while his currency is low/starting to build and get an extra year for "cheaper". While a lot of "up and coming" players like a 2 year deal. This gives them the ability for their stocks to soar and have a new contract be drawn up at the end of those 2 years when they have "proved" themselves.

Its telling that while a rookie FF is now out injured it does not result in Cook being named in the 18. Hardly a vote of confidence. Will be watching ABC with interest to see whats on show.

Seriously people, a little less negativity would be a wonderful thing here. Does anyone have any concrete news that LJ plans to leave the club? If so, please feel free to enlighten us, but otherwise how about giving both he and the club the benefit of the doubt and accepting this at face value? Personally, I think that if Liam were planning on giving up on the AFL he'd tell the club up front. Likewise, if he wanted a trade to another club he'd ask for one. I have no concrete information to base this on, but everything I have ever read or heard about him says that he is a good guy, so I'm happy to think the best of him until he shows me otherwise. Personally, if I were facing court with a chance of going to jail, I'd be sending time with my family too. It doesn't matter if the lawyers think he has a great case, the doubt is going to be there until the results are official. I have absolutely no problem with him spending time with his loved ones before the trial.

Demonsterative - I get where you are coming from, but totally disagree with your thoughts. Liam has my full respect and support for the journey he has made across the emotional, mental, and cultural void between his community and the mainstream community at the MFC. Great clubs have values and pursue those values when others would defer. While this year has been bleak and devoid of proud footy moments (only the Dons game), I have felt more proud of the club this year than I have in 40+ years of supporting it. First was the MFC support and respect for Jimmy, his family and his memory. The second was ditching Energy Watch for his racist and sexist rants. The third was our support for Liam over his troubles. Great clubs support their players. [censored] ones ditch them.

Thanks for sharing. I think all clubs would have their success stories of the odd gem selected outside the top 25 or so. Where we've fallen down is using our top 20 picks. If we just look at prendergast's time, he's had picks 1, 1, 2, 11, 12, 17, 18 and 19 to work with in the space of three years, and failed to draft a superstar with that haul. That's where you are supposed to get your best players, and he made an absolute meal of it. Sure, we don't know how good some of them are going to be, but the fact that we are still wondering that about players after four years (watts, Strauss, blease) is a worry. Cook was probably the second worst pick in club history behind Molan. Gysberts has looked promising but through injury or whatever failed facets of his game has been spilled in the paper as trade bait. I don't know if it counts for or against BP, but besides Trengove and possibly Watts, all of those picks have had a fair by of injury to deal with. Yes, he's nailed Howe and McDonald, but there were plenty of later picks that haven't come on, and the addition of these two hasn't compensated for his performance drafting inside the top 20. As much as CC's idea sounds fair, we have to demand more. Other clubs are nailing their top picks and finding the odd gem.

See, I have a completely different view of Judd. I don't think he is a leaders bootlace. Yes he leads with on field performance but Tom Harley would not have stood by while Fev was going apeshit at the Brownlow. Nick maxwell would not have chained himself to an 18yo Levi Casaboult who was so shiitefaced that his Dad had to be called to be picked up. Brett Kirk would not have tolerated a drug fuelled culture that Judd oversaw at West Coke. Judd continually says 'I don't want to be a role model' or in my words 'Just pay me a fortune and p*** off out of my life'. He is anything but a leader. I think that those who point to a single gun player like that saying everyone will follow is missing the point entirely. Carlton does not play like a true team under Judd IMO. So its more than having a great player. Its about having a leadership group that demands excellence and commitment.

I'm looking at the photograph on the back page of today's Herald Sun which shows a dejected looking Aaron Davey after the siren sounded to end the Sydney Swans v Melbourne game in 2009. That is not a picture of a man who is tanking.

RR, we agree on something! Glad you have finally realised the source of the MFC problems!

You're clearly a fool. When a player retires most want to thank the player for their efforts. Most players give their all. Their perceived value is subjective opinion. Only a [censored] pans them as they're saluting.

brisbane gave us Clark, Joel Mac, and Grimes - cannot thank them enough

Who cares, he plays for us now.

I doubt you'd find two less likely blokes to hold a grudge over friendly fire in a game of footy.

You are mistaken. He has been offered a 17 year contract. That way he is out of other club's reach when he becomes eligible for free agency for a second time.

No-that was a picture of a guy who does NOT have a tank.

No player could achieve 150 senior games having played only 5 good ones. Surely that's self evident. Or are you saying the AFL is still a bush league competition? Ordinary post.

What happened to Kane Tenace and Mark Blake at Geelong? Lewis Johnstone and Patrick Veszpremi at Sydney? It happens at all clubs. The better ones just have a much higher strike rate. In my mind, that is a combination of recruiting, development and culture. What percentage of influence each of these factors has is anyone's guess and far too hard to truly measure.

At least these are impact injuries - not soft tissue ones like the Bombers have.

Without getting back into an argument where we are all talking past each other I just meant that Judd is a lone hand in that club and he made it much better than it was. It isn't great but how could it be, when you rely on one flawed leader. Suffice it to say, I don't think Carlton will win a flag with Judd and that is just a good feeling to have.

I agree lets not kid ourselves. Its a really dubious statistic to just look at the points against and say the defence has not done its job. It must be a loving hell down there when the midfield is so 3rd world. I'd rather compare some inside 50s stats of opposition teams against MFC and their scoring. I seem to recall that Freo had just 60 inside 50s against MFC and other Clubs have had outrageous forward entry stats. No defence can deal with that. FWIW, I think Frawley has had the raw straw on this. He is better than you want to paint him and has done a number of really good stopping jobs on the best opposition forward notwithstanding the onslaught. If we had a near competitive midfield we get somewhere near a defence that does not feel and play like their being shelled in the trenches.

Was one of my favourite players If only others with a lot more talent and skill in our team had his fearlessness and hardness we'd not be in the state we are in now. I'll never forget the way he took it right up to guys like Hall, Crowley etc... when he played, the guy could not be intimidated. Onya Brad, you gave your all for the club and I respect that immensely.

for mine two words summarise our recruiting/drafting and subsequent development: MASSIVE UNDERACHIEVEMENT No other club in recent times ( prior tothe noobs) had such chances and picks at their disposal. We fluffed it .....big time. Imho we set out and got exactly who we thought we needed and in the main got it very wrong. Its been incompetency by design. We targeted the wrong players, the wrong types that is. Our vision of what would make a competitive team was fundamentally flawed. Yes , i agree even withhte best of intentions you wont get it right 100%, but we ve got it wrong nearly 100%, ok an exageration but our strike rate is way below 25% and thats attrocius when you consider even blind luck ought to get you 50%..random hit or miss What this tells me is those that were at the helm and charged with formulating a construct by which to create a competitve team simply had it wrong . ( ill be kind here and say wrong, some might suggest nfi !!) I seriously think even with the best of crystal balls you may only get 50-66% of selections through to becoming a defined success. Theyre will always be those that just dont fire, or were at their peak with no further room to grow. It will happen. But to be where we are now at back end of 2012 with a cupboard somewhat bereft of real AFL grade talent having had multiple opportunities to acquire and amass some is beyond lamentable its scandalous. Inept. For mine I am thankful the new regime dont rate the old one's as much chop. Im glad theyve identified the gaping holes and are making moves to fill them. I dont care if that upsets some folks idea of a cozy applecart. To any one who still seriously thinks our recruiting /drafting/develoment hasnbt been all that bad ( given whatever >>>> insert whatever excuse you wish ) then please explain the sh!t we now find ourselves in.....again.!! Proof of the pudding is in the eating they say.. The evidence is before us, we're crap. It didnt just happen , we got theie by design. That means its someone(s) fault. What Ilike to think is that if we got to be rubbish by design then we can become good by design too. Just a better design, together with some hard work and hard calls. Go Dees

Seriously Bud leave it out, if your going to have a go at Miller just don't post on the thread. To Brad, 150 game player a lot to be said for that an achievment in itself, great club man who went out of his way with supporters and kids on any occassion I had dealings with him. Always welcome back at the club, best of luck to you Brad in retirement

I like the way soem seem to want to suggest ......hey its all ok really , over all. The occasional late pick that over achieves v the high picks who crashed. This quite frankly is crap. Any overs we get from late picks are simply bonus, they ought not be compensation for any lack of success higher in the order. Those high picks should return higher gains..But we havent really had a fair return on these picks over the years and no amount of occasional joy from the lower ranks ought to be seem as some sort of rebalance.

That would be a great trade for us. I see Moloney has been dropped again this week, so I think his future is being made quite certain to him - TRADE! You could add to the Molony plus pick 13 trade with Bate & Bennell for all I care. We would be getting a future A grade mid for blokes who are 'ok' at best.

Curse you Sue! I had put this horrible tipping choice out my mind but I have enjoyed reading the above hateful and hurtful posts - all by good solid Demons supporters. As a result of an unfortunate visit to Windy Hill many years ago, I used to hate Essendon more than anyone. Now, however, since John Elliot , cardboard boxes, tanking, their general squealing,their filthy rude and arrogant supporters and Brock Mclean, I have nurtured a good healthy hatred of the scum. I wish them as much ill luck as possible.

I like to hear why. I see very few redeeming features. Their arrogant president has the biggest mouth in the league. AFLs golden child and treated like it. Unbearable supporters. And the list goes on........

Collingwood Carlton Essendon Hawthorn Whenever these teams play each other we have a saying in our red-and-blue-mad household: we don't care who wins as long as they hurt each other. As much as I hate to type this - I prefer Carlton due to draft picks. I cannot adequately express my loathing for the above four teams via a computer screen.

Well done Brad. Welcome back at the MFC anytime.

Everything I've heard about him is that he was great clubman while at Melbourne, I had high hopes for him early on in his time at Melbourne and although he never reached the hights I wished for he had some great moments with us. Would like him to come back to the club at some stage.

I also think that Cloke jrn and srn are selfish crazy bastards, in that they want top dollar and would be prepared to swap Melbourne-based clubs to get it. Nose despite his face, sort of. It's like they have some mad Spanish blood in their lineage. Is Travis really as good as what David is pedalling ($1 mill plus p/a), partic in a bottom 4 club? Do we really want David hanging around the MFC sticking his nose in more than he should? Is it value for money if he gets very little supply? Very true comments and ones that should be heeded. Cloke is averaging 2 goals a match in a team that has great deliverers of the ball to the forwards. He has family baggage that you wouldn't possibly want to have around the place. Steer clear of him. get a gun on-baller if we can attract one. I would think our brand is currently 'on the nose' and i couldn't see too many players wanting to join us, worse the pity. Still, money talks all languages. Just think of Judd and Scully.

I'll share the odd snippet of a discussion I had with CAC. In one part he wrote, "If we had drafted Rivers at 15 and Smith at 26 in 2002 would you be raising an issue? Because if you looked at the best player drafted after 15 I would contend that it is Rivers. The opportunity cost of a failure at 15 in 2002 is fairly low. It was a poor draft." "Surely Brisbane's failure at 10 in 1997 with O'Bree was more than compensated by their selection of Black at 31 in the same draft. Later picks do compensate for early failures on occasion." Now some supporters won't be comforted by that view as they'll expect most picks to be right, but clearly Craig's point has some merit. I'm a harsh critic of BP, but I must concede that Howe is a ripper selection in the 30's, as is Tom McDonald at 50 odd. So I ask you, are we too tough on BP and do later picks compensate earlier picks as Craig attests ? Craig's rider is "on occasions", where he clearly means that the overall quality of the draft has to be a consideration.

didn't impress me at all at the champs. fast skilled midfielders are what we are after peoples!

We'd be spending a lot of coin over a lot of years on Cloke if he came to us. could it be better used spread over a number of players, as McLardy spoke of? Yes, another big forward would be very handy. Cloke would probably be a good match for Clarke and give some of our other mid size fwds a better chance. But I keep thinking that our priority is 2-3 QUALITY midfielders of the standard of Jones or better (but not necessarily players in the style of Jones). For mine, it mids, mids and mids.

Ben Kennedy in this years draft is one that i am red hot on. He has pace, explosive pace, has great disposal, can find the footy, is a natural small forward and is very capable in the midfield, both receiving and extracting. The only thing holding back from definite top 5 is his height. Would love to get him at pick 13, but if we are able to snag Viney with a 2nd rounder, i'd be very willing to bring Kennedy to the Dees with pick 4 after getting Toumpas with pick 3. Leaving pick 13 for us to draft another kid or trade to bring in another mid. We've already got Sam Blease, but we could definately do with another of his type, one in the middle and one in the forward line!

well done you heroso when confronted with anything remotely looking like an argumetn you resort to Troll ...good onya If he is fit, and one cansumme he is sufficientlyu so otherwise he wouldnt be seected. Neeld has shown he will not select for selctions sake. So Sylivia is out there to play, to paly to his ability which I concede is very high. he never plays to it though. he has never played out 4 qtrs to his ability. He never figures in any meaingful way in Browlow votes. Doesnt even figure in our club voting, Yeah hes THAT good. !! If players dont want crap put on them its simple...stop playing like crap !!