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There is a bit of angst on here and from people I talk to about Neeld and his staff when comparing us from last year to this year. I think it needs to be a reference for people who want to compare. I only make this thread as it's quicker to do this then reply to everyone who repeats the rhetoric spoken by insipid "Journalists" like Greg Denhim who were bagging us last year and then this year they suddenly praise our 2011 season compared to this one. C'mon we have all heard the line "But we won 8 games last year and we could of made the 8" It is vomit! Do you forget? So before you say it is all Neeld's fault and sack him lets look back. Round 1: Drew with Sydney who screwed up the sub rule by having I believe it was Seaby as their sub. Pretty sure they were the first and last team to go with a ruckmen as a sub. Round 2: Smashed by Hawthorn. Round 3: Just beat a pitiful Brisbane who had taken the chance on older players and it backfired plus fevola issues. Round 4: We smashed Gold Coast. That will go down in history as a great win.Pfffft. Round 6:Smashed by West Coast. Round 7:We smash Adelaide who were not playing for their coach at all and eventually quit. Round 8-10: Lose to North,St.Kilda and Carlton. Round 11: We beat Essendon as they our are [censored]. Round 12: We get smashed by the pies. Round 13: We smash a injury ravaged Freo who by the end of the year nearly had to apply to the AFL for extra players on their list just to field a side. Round 14: We beat the tigers who were our equal which was probably our best win. Round 15-17: Lose to the dogs and then beat Port who were being compared to Fitzroy at the time. Round 18-24: This got us one win and 6 losses including 186. We finish 13th above Adelaide who sacked their coach,Brisbane who tried to steal a flag with mature players,Port who were woeful and A first year club. If you think it's all Neeld's fault take a good hard look at what he inherited.

Our performance on Saturday night was so anaemic that I'm just wondering where the blood came from?

Looks like the case against the wizard could be nulla nulla and void.

If we stop Petrie, you can bet some nobody hack would bob up and kick 5. Who even heard of this Port kid who ripped us apart before Saturday night? We are North's [censored], and it kills me to say it, because I hate North and their [censored] shineboner spirit garbage.

This side splittingly hilarious gag just never stops being funny. Congratulations though jnrmac, you've won the prize for being the 1000th person to post this in the history of Demonland.

Court reporter on 3AW just said that the charge sheet doesn't even mention machete. It lists the weapons as the nulla nulla and an axe.. not sure how precise they need to be with the language though. My fingers and toes have never been so crossed.. if the charges are dropped, and if LJ can get himself fit and firing for 2013, the world will be a brighter place and the MFC's stocks will increase dramatically.

That's not all you said at all. The rubbish you sprouted was, "Guarantee you Cotchin and Martin would not be anywhere near as good had they come through our system at the time." I've already given examples how Addam Maric, Miller, Simon Buckley, McLean, Chris Johnson, Paul Johnson (delisted), and Cheney have left Melbourne for other clubs and they're all still [censored]. Richmond have done OK with Houli and Grigg, but what's the bet that Maric stays a hack ? It's not our development that has been the biggest problem it's been the recruiting. Although I recognise that you have no capacity to change your view or appreciate sound reasoning.

Wow.... ummm wow. I think he was trying to point out we were still $hit last year... In 2011 even before we travelled down to Geelong, there were heaps of media coverage looking at the fact that our style of play meant that we were getting smashed by teams who knew how to make us play accountable football, not sure if you are pining for the Halcyon days of Bailey or not, but last year was not a good year, and yes it's sad that we have regressed in order to play a more competitive brand of football. nah screw continuing down that line of argument, at this point I'd rather tell you to put up your umbrella!

Some serious face palming happening here whilst im reading through this. Jackie effing lol at some of your post. To the others who are calling for Neelds head just rancho relaxo, Melbournes list stinks, you can thank Daniher and Bailey for that. Im assuming Neeld wouldnt even look twice at some of our players if he had the chance. So sit back, try and get some joy out of the rest of the season because in reality we arent going to be winning too many games, maybe 1-2. We will get some draft picks and hopefully use them well. Thats the reality of it all, there are no quick fixes unfortunately, just look at richmond. They stuffed up their recruiting mid 2000s but finally got it right, unfortunately we are the new richmond. Go Dees 2013

Let's look at the top 6 players of each side you mentioned. Melbourne: This is tough, because some of our better players, such as Jamar, have been in poor form or are out injured - Jurrah. Clark, Frawley, Jones, Grimes, Sylvia, Rivers Footscray: Boyd, Cross, Griffen, Murphy, Lake, Cooney North: Petrie, Swallow, Harvey, Wells, Ziebell, McIntosh/Goldstein Carlton: Judd, Murphy, Carrazzo, Gibbs, Simpson, Scotland Richmond: Cotchin, Riewoldt, Deledio, Martin, Rance, Maric Brisbane: Brown, Black, Rockliff, Redden, Rich, Merrett If I had to place these lists of top 6 in order I'd go: Carlton North Richmond Brisbane Footscray Melbourne If I ranked the clubs on depth it would be: North Carlton Melbourne Brisbane Richmond Footscray My overall ranking of the lists assuming they were in a healthy state and taking into account the age and my subjective belief of their potential would be: Carlton North Richmond Melbourne Brisbane Footscray I believe that clubs with a new coaching group and a completely new game-plan are at a disadvantage. Younger lists will also have a query, because any evaluation is to a certain extent based on unproven potential. My natural bias may have Melbourne a little high in the overall rankings, but I think our list of under 25's is as good as most in the competition, but our lack of genuine star factor, or pointy end talent means that we don't have enough players capable of influencing games. Stars make a massive difference on football clubs and their fortunes. I have no doubt we have better depth than Richmond, but equally I have no doubt that their best players are better and with Cotchin, Tuck, Foley, Deledio, and Martin they have a superior midfield. If we can develop some stars, take advantage of our strong hand in a quality draft, get fitter and stronger, and genuinely improve the midfield I believe that our list is well place to move up the ranking over the next 2-3 years. If we can unearth 2 or 3 A grade mids it will make the world of difference all over the field. But I can also understand why we're behind the clubs you named.

I've lost track of who's injured, who's available and who's where. Getting too hard now to pick the ins and outs now. I know Garland won't be dropped because of one poor (shocking) decision though.

I wish I cared

I'd probably do something along the lines of switching Hawthorn's list for Melbourne's...

I hope they do sign Malthouse and I hope it turns out to be Pagan Mach II for them.

That really gets up my nose, I get sick of hearing the same thing without the counter balance of "however the other clubs in the meantime managed to pick up several other A Grade footballers and by the way one of them did get this star as a bargain". We never get the real good ones and all to often put it down to bad luck, bad luck my ass. Bad recruiting that is what it is.

Sadly about 25 other players attempt to say hi and bite off their tongues.

Whilst I am not saying we have recruited well or not.... Cos at this stage we obviously haven't, it is Waaaay way way way too easy to pick out a couple of other draft picks that were good after our pick. Bailey obviously wanted a particular type of player, and Prendergast was asked to recruit that player... it failed, and Neeld has other ideas, but It's like saying we failed in the draft that landed Essendon with James Hird at 70odd... I mean FFS. No other club in the country disagreed with Scully and Trengove at the time. No other club in Victoria would haven Nic Nat over Watts, and it wasn't just us that skipped over Hurley, and Vickery being better at this stage than Watts, seriously? Fyfe at 20... yes thats an awesome pickup by Freo, but every other club would have had a chance to take him before that potentially, and did they? The article isn't bad, but it's a little simple in terms of the research done.... it could be done to highlight faults in any teams recruiting if you dig hard enough. I do agree with the leadership void bit, and I think the conditioning staff have almost as much to answer for as our recruiters. Its not just one thing, its EVERYTHING that caused this shambles!

Well, that's right why would we need a quality young man who puts his body on the line every week, follows coaches instructions and plays a selfless game for the sake of the team good. Spare me from our own supporters.

Out: Melbourne In: Casey

YESSSS AND YEEESSSS! Oh my God is our run of bad luck finally ending? PLEASE GOD!

Don't think there is any "wonder" about it wyl

Makes you wonder whether BP actually ran for his life out of this club when Neeld arrived.

I'm not trying to have it both ways. There's some middle ground. Do you think it's possible for recruiters to leave a club completely bereft of talent ? Do you think it's possible they'll stuff up every pick ? Even the worst recruiters get some right. It's a matter of evaluating opportunity against performance. CAC delivered Frawley, Grimes, Rivers and Garland, which has provided a sound defence. BP has added McDonald, who despite the odd mistake looks really promising. His courage, tank, height and marking will hold him in really good stead. He'll only improve. With the pace of Nicholson the back-line is relatively young and sound. Davis has potential. Rucks are OK with Jamar, Martin and Gawn, but we're ready to get another. Clark is a great get by Neeld, which gives the forward-line instant structure. How many clubs have a tall marking forward of Clark's ilk ? More is needed, but hopefully Howe (BP) and Jurrah (BP) can be staples up front. A Stevie J, McGlynn, or Breust type wouldn't go astray, but they're few and far between. A quality small is a must. Who knows where Watts will end up and Garland is worth a try over preseason. The famous midfield at Melbourne is clearly an issue, but I'm a Trengove believer and Jones adds solidity. Viney plus 3 and 4 should really help. We have too many C grade mids. Without counting them I reckon there's roughly a dozen players that can form a solid core of at least B grade, or better (canvas), but we need a couple of stars and a few more B+ to A grade mids to turn our fortunes around. CAC got some good players and Prendergast also got a few, but when you look at the top 21 picks at their disposal you'd have to say it's been a poor result, particularly by Prendergast. McLean, Sylvia, Bate, Dunn, Jones, Frawley, Watts, Scully, Trengove, Morton, Grimes, Gysberts, Maric, Blease, Strauss, Tapscott and Cook as a group are a fail for mine. There's 17 top 21 picks in that grouping and I don't count one A grader. Frawley had an A grade year and I really rate him, but he needs to back it up, and Jones has really improved, but he's presently short of A grade. There is time for a number of them to make the sort of progress required, so I recognise that it's unfair to mark some of them so soon, even if there are starting to be queries. We're desperate for a super star and despite plenty of top 20 draft picks we're still hoping and there's not one player that looks close. Clark looks the closest and we didn't draft him. With bookends in Frawley and Clark, the makings of a good defence, and excellent young leaders in Grimes and Trengove there's a bit to work with, but you'd have to say we've made plenty of mistakes on draft day. Maybe I'm painting too much blue sky and having a bit each way, but I've got to hold onto something.

You, like many others, fail to see why we are offering what appears to be 'overs' for Cloke. Besides all the obvious benefits (Structure, contesting marking in forward 50 ect) , we also have to pay NOTHING TO COLLINGWOOD. Draft picks are priceless and the fact that we have to give up none to Collingwood is the reason why we are throwing so much money into this. If we were giving up draft picks for a standard 'trade' then their is no way teams would be throwing this type of coin at Cloke. I hope we get him, Cloke, Viney + 2 - 3 other mids, im watering at the mouth already.

Interesting (and depressing) the number of people who believe that while this year may not be the worst on field it is the one giving them the least hope for the future. I am 180 degrees the other way. As appalling as the on field performance has been this year, I have much more hope for the future than I had at any time in the Bailey years. To me, Bailey's downhill skiier game plan was always going to give us wins against poor opposition but have us blasted out of the park by any team with a strong defensive style. Under that scenario, we may eventually have played finals, but never got any higher than perhaps about 6th. Now I believe we're building a team that can challenge in the future. And I don't mean the very distant future. I don't expect finals in 2013, but 2014 will be a possibility. And for what it's worth, I'm old enough to remember the late 60s and the 70s. I reckon we were much, much worse then. We may have won more games, but the distance between us and the top was much greater. We won more games, because there were other teams down there with us (Fitzroy, South Melbourne, Footscray and North Melbourne until the early 70s). For all you without hope, please do not give up. The tide will turn.

"that Neeld doesn't rate the list." If that is his attitude Then Neeld and I are in total agreement. I don't rate it either

For interest sake.... The British and American system have verdicts of Guilty or Not Guilty (acquittal) In Scotland they have two versions of acquittal - Not Guilty and Not Proven And to top it off the Italians (who else) have five different flavours of acquittal (yes 5)

Lol, you're spiralling out of control. This is how I picture you this time next year; "You stuffed up pick 3 & 4, you botched the Scully pick and worst of all, Cook over Darling?... no more!!"

The court has heard that Basil Jurrah was so drunk that he could not stand and the he attacked Liam with a machette and that Liam was defending himself......The witness also stated that she had not seen Liam hit anyone....This is a woman that had not been drinking that night and is a party that was on the opposing side and called by the prosecution...On the age web site for anybody interested....(I don't know how to post a link)

I had a good laugh at Dennis Commetti on Friday night when interviewing James Kelly of Geelong. Kelly had the earphones on so he could listen to the commentators questions for him... "And James what are you listening to whilst on the bike there, some latest music or the coaches instructions...." "No Dennis, I have them on so I can listen to your questions..." Brilliant Dennis.

Thanks for that Hampton - had a great laugh. On a slightly related note, listening to commentators mangle the english language is one of the great joys I derive from the season (particularly when we're sitting at 2-15 or whatever we are). On Friday night, when a controversial free kick was paid against Essendon, Brian Taylor said that: "The Bomber fans are absolutely erratic about that one!" Earlier in the year, Brian Lake was asked whether we had doubted last year that he could come back to senior football. He replied: "You always have doubts - there's no doubt about that". And then of course there was Brad Green's effort last week, when he was asked a question about the AFL's women's round and what role women had to play in football. He said: "I'm sure one day we'll see a club employing assistant coaches or coaches with a woman's background."

Whatever happens with Brad won't be about the $ cost. The issue will be around list management, Are we going to see a deep cut in the list? Could some of our players like Dun, Bate or Moloney actually go as a free agent elsewhere? Do we land some free agents of our own? All these things will come into play for Brad in determining what he wants to do next year... and the club will be thinking about it all too. Also remember that I think Jamar and Rivers are eligible for the veterans list, so we can't have 3, and we would be putting the two highest paid onto that list I guess... I don't think anyone disagrees that he has been a fantastic servant and 250 games is a milestone to be proud of.

Thanks Brad for your dedication, professionalism, passion for the Club and performance. You richly deserved the accolades that recognise your achievements over your career. I admired you for standing tall often during the debacle of the past six years. But the writing is on the wall and this year is your last. I hope you make that call rather than the Club do it for you. Enjoy your retirement.

I have heard the new skoda car has a scully integrated fuel tank. What happens is you will be driving along and you check your fuel gauge and it starts to speak to you by saying I know there is interest in my fuel level but I want to be a one tank car and my fuel gauge will sort its self out. And then BAM! Before you know it you are out of fuel.

Tom Scully- one more friggin headache we thankfully don't have to deal with in 2012. Imagine this horrible year being topped off by Scully's awful form, and supporters slashing their wrists because "he is the worst #1 pick eve!!!1"

Per quarter?

By wearing protective clothing and rigorously cleaning themselves before and after touching their patients.

Congratulations on 250 Greeny. Through the ups and downs of it all, has always handled himself with the utmost dignity and professionalism.

Melbourne have played a great, entertaining brand of football for years but it's a brand that will never win a flag; we've been there twice in recent history and been destroyed both times. It' a bit like the old horse and buggy, we looked good but compared to the car we were totally impracticle. We have to change and all those that want to hang on to the old style are in reality saying we should stick with the horse and buggy, sure we can win 8 to 10 games a year but that's it. Neeld has thrown down the challenge to the players, the club and the supporters to move to a different style to what we've become accustomed to and we can either accept the challenge or get the buggy out of the garage and go back to our mediocre selves. What he is trying to do is implement a style that has proven to be successful at Collingwood and various clubs so it's not rocket science it's just different.

Thank god someone has a clue

On a positive note this week is Brad Greens 250th game. Although the last 2 seasons have been pretty lean I think we should remember what a great player he has been for this club. Still remember him beating Carlton off his own boot in 2000. Hes been a fine role model for the youngsters since he was drafted and has been a fine figure for this great footy club. I for one will be there on sat and although I dont agree that it happens I hope the boys give it their all, and get up for the former skipper. Well done Greeny.

Optimistic as it turns out

Well there we go. Someone with as little IQ as a cactus. Deliberately smearing blood on someone is, in your opinion, acceptable. Deliberate. If Howe didn't do it deliberately then this isn't an issue. But the idea behind the charge is that he did. According to you, the game is weak because we don't tolerate the smearing of blood on people. Might as well just smear crap on them too while we're at it, right? I mean, to not do so is just weak. You're an idiot. So are you. And you. Yes, I'm on our side. Sorry that I don't agree with the idea of smearing blood on other people.

Interesting - here's the 'Season Predicting' poll . Chook , you had us finishing 6th . There's a few of us that got it horribly wrong though , including me . I had us pegged for 8th . Doink ! Now , we don't want anyone changing their vote - I'll be watching . http://demonland.com...son +prediction

Congrats Greeny, has had a wonderful career and I've enjoyed the large majority of it. Many great highlights.

Stupid thing to do. PLEASE MAKE THIS SEASON END ALREADY!!!

I've heard people say this on occasion and I just don't see it. As a mod I can see every post that gets deleted (it stays in the thread, just gets hidden to non-admin, for us they appear canary yellow) and I reckon for 99% of the time only one or two posts every few days gets deleted and normally it's a clear and obvious violation of the rules. The only times posts get mass deleted are if a thread goes completely feral and even then I'd say we're pretty generous about what is acceptable, or if someone blatantly hijacks a thread and it goes completely off topic. Genuinely interested in examples of extreme and regular heavy-handedness because I really just don't see it. Personally I find myself erring on giving posts the benefit of the doubt more than anything.

I've always enjoyed looking at both 'ology and 'land, partly because they are quite different. Some say the mod here is too nanny-like, but I think that encourages less sniping and ridiculous posting. There tends to be more considered reasoning, it is more structured and, dare I say it, respectful. Generally, that is - many would shoot this down. On the other hand, I have also liked 'ology for its emotion, biting humour and often obscure football related discussions. For various reasons, there is more of an almost anything goes approach. I have tried to sign up, but like many others over the years, have not been able to. It has been great having some of the characters from 'ology migrate to 'land recently and add a large amount of spice to the discussions. My question is, would we be diluting what has made both forums enjoyable by only having one? Or are we better off having 2 different forums, each having its own style or characteristics?

A bit of variety is good I reckon. There's no real issue having two sites up and running is there? Its not like one is hurting the other.

It couldn't happen to a more deserving team. I can't help but get the feeling that it's Cloke Sr that is the greedy one, and Travis is just going with his father's wishes. As highly as I rate Cloke, I wouldn't want to see him at the Dees if it meant paying $800k+ for 5 years. That money could be much better invested elsewhere.