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I suppose it depends upon how you define "star". I define a "star" as someone that reaches the heights of Carey, Hird, Franklin, Judd, Matthews, Ablett, Barassi, etc. And I've only ever seen one at Melbourne - Flower. I've seen champions of our club in Neitz, Stynes, Lyon, Viney, Wells, etc but only one true star of the game. A star rises above their own club to be recognised by all and sundry. If you need an argument to establish whether a player is a star then they're not a star, because a star is obvious to everyone. They're not easy to unearth, so the liklihood is that we don't have a genuine star on our list. But you never know, we may unearth someone. Other clubs get them, so it's about time we did. I think Trengove has the ability if he's allowed to play on instinct. Jack Viney goes about it in a fashion that he'll leave no stone unturned to be one and we know he's got talent, so he's a genuine chance.

If the Hawks had have lost to us on Friday night do you think they would have been on the ground ahaving a chat and agiggle after the game?

Is it just me or have we yet to see the best 22 available players selected for a match?

As others have commented, thursday's hearing will only last a few minutes. If the case proceeds then it is likely to drag into next year. In the meantime Liam is available to play in Sydney this weekend. Believe me the Jurrahcane is ready to rumble!

Actually not - I was disappointed with Watts comments on losing and put it down to a dumb thing for a 20 year old to say.A footballer has to move on from a defeat to prepare for the next week but I believe that a footballers makeup must contain a healthy dose of a love for winning with also an equal loathing of losing. I'm in two minds regarding displays of emotion after the siren has gone and what it all means. I am of singular mind when I say I want our boys hating to lose a single contest, quarter or game. I am not convinced that all our boys do.

Jack Watts

FFS, OD. I'd just get shot down by nattering nabobs who know the future just as well as I do... All of 'em. McKenzie will be Ling like. Bail will be Swan like. We will win many flags, everyone will die happy, and Demonland will close down. The End.

If Cloke isn't a serious play for us in a $ sense, i can only hope you're right here Stuie. I've been waiting for decades to see this club get bloody ruthless both on and off the field in all areas.

No, but nor would it make sense.

When your club is presently the laughing stock of the AFL it's terribly stupid to act as though you're not emotionally invested in the result. Rightly, or wrongly, the perception is that the current plight doesn't hurt enough. It's not a hanging offence and when young guys are in a group you can easily understand how it happens, but I doubt you'll see that type of behavior for the remainder of the year.

Clark has dropped a lot of marks and I think you will find a lot of his goals come from his ground work. Cloke on the other hand, is one of the best single grab marks going around...and his accuracy is much better than Clark from a set shot...and that is not to belittle Clark's performance, by the way.

Hmmm. The idea that the football department and the administration are too far apart is at least different from the previous criticism that they were too close together.

Press release from the "Melbourne Football Club" The club today would like to acknowledge that senior player Stefan Martin was witnessed to smile and laugh at training yesterday. Chief Executive Cameron Schwab today announced "We take these indiscretions very seriously, and can announce that player Martin has been stood down from the non-leadership group indefinitely, and will be required to undertake 34 hours of community service manning a gate at Parliament Station, considered the bench-mark for people who show no joy in their work". Martin said in a prepared statement "I understand my actions were wrong, and if I had my time again would do things differently. I today humbly apologise to my teammates, coaching staff, family members and most importantly the fans. My attempts to show a glimpse of enjoyment from this season were insensitive and may have offended many people" Schwab added "At the Melbourne Football Club, we are striving for a professional environment at all times, and we are extremely disappointed in Stefans actions. We will not tolerate such actions, and have made our stance on this quite clear in past. Last offseason player Addam Maric, who had previously had an exemplary record of discipline in not showing emotion, suffered a rare lapse, smiled, and we could no longer continue to ignore his disruptive influence. Addam unfortunately as a result is no longer at our football club." In other news, the club also today announced the termination of its dental sponsor, The Smile Clinic, due to a conflict in core values. We thank the company for their previous valued support as a Bronze Sponsor.

I was making the point that protracted injuries don't just hurt you for the time players are injured, especially with young players ... they hurt you because their development is also hindered. It's different with a 100- or 200-game player because they have developed nearly as much as they are going to and they can come in from even a 6-8 week injury spell and still be nearly as effective. Here's the actual games each player has played versus the total AFL games that Melbourne have played since they joined the club (not counting NAB etc.). It shows how little AFL football they've played, due to a combination of injury and development time. Six of these players were top 20 picks, some are players on which we were basing our future midfield, the area that is so lacking at the moment. Cook 0/29 (0%) Fitzpatrick 2/51 (4%) Gawn 4/51 (8%) Blease 6/73 (8%) Strauss 11/73 (15%) Gysberts 18/51 (36%) Tapscott 19/51 (38%) Jetta 30/73 (40%) Grimes 38/95 (40%) Contrast Blease and Strauss with players taken in the same year (2009) and the number of games they've played e.g. Stephen Hill 74, Sidebottom 66, Rich 66, Redden 54, Yarran 49, Hurley 47, Vickery 45. Many of these players have already had finals experience. If our players had managed 50+ games with a couple of finals we might be in a different position.

Spot on with the ins... INS: 1. Green- clearly the club wants him back in the team. we need our senior guys to stand up ffs 2. Jurrah- Neeld confirmed that our most exciting player is back for the swans. Jurrah, Clark and Howe= YES! 3. Watts- with the double bye for the vfl, he can't learn any lessons not playing at all. Can continue learning his craft at AFL level. is too talented to be languishing too long at vfl 4. Martin- i watched the second half of the vfl, he's finally healthy. Is a HUGE step up from Sellar and Fitzpatrick, we need him back to 2011 form 5. Blease- We need some outside run and carry I'd also very seriously consider bringing in Taggert and start him as the sub. The kid looked great at VFL last week. Although in truth, he's only really played a couple of vfl games due to injury, could probably use a bit more development time. Out: - Definitely Sylvia, Bail and Bate. 3 guys who just aren't performing atm and need to perform at VFL level - Fitzpatrick just not ready. I'd also think about dropping Tom McDonald, he's got a taste, but isn't in our best 22 quite yet imo - Petterd and Bennel get another crack at it, because it's unfair to drop them after only 1 game back

I see dead posts

Flippant remark. Ward was highly regarded by coaches and selectors in seasons where we had some success. He had anticipation, pace and, despite what you say, quality disposal. A player with this sort of ability would be more than handy.

I don't think so. Is it every player that does it? No. But unfortunately they all get tarred with the same brush by the ones who seemingly couldn't care less. Look it's not that hard. Just shake hands and get off the f...k..ng ground!

It's not about imposing a requirement, it's about common sense. As I said I'm not talking about the Hawthorn incident, as I haven't seen it. I'm talking about the one with Watts at Geelong. Did you see that? If so, did you think it was a good look? That's rubbish that if they're not playing they can do what they like. This is not a country footy match where you rock up to watch your mates play and have a beer on the boundary. These guys are representing the Melbourne FC on and off the field, a professional elite sporting club the core business of which is winning games of footy. I would expect a player to naturally be upset when their team is getting pumped or at least to behave as if they are. Now that's not saying "don't tell jokes" or "don't laugh". You're taking it to the extreme. What I'm saying is that players should be aware of their behaviours and to show a bit of common sense in such situations. Nothing wrong with a little comment / joke or a smile or whatever, but I thought the way Watts was laughing his head off for 20 seconds while watching the Geelong game was taking it too far.

One last thought - have the critics considered that what we saw was a brief moment in two hours of watching the game? We didn't see all the times that Watts, Martin and co. sat there stony-faced like the rest of us as the Hawks piled on goal after goal. And if the TV networks had shown footage of Watts, Martin and co. dirtying up at their on-field teammates from the stands, the critics would no doubt say that was another indictment on the players - there are fractures in the playing group, yada yada yada. What some of you expect from our players is completely unrealistic.

We have none of it. From anyone. Media, other supporters and most importantly other afl clubs. Why? Because we haven't earned any. And I hate it. But what I also hate is that we don't seem to give a frick. We need to start earning it by playing hard, tough, accountable footy, and not being out smashed at 4am Sunday morning like a player who shall remain nameless. Or smiling when we've just lost by 8 goals. It's killing me /end rant

Me too Nasher I have seen Cloke miss a lot of easy shots. Cloke in my opinion is not as good as he looks. He is a classic case of a good player playing in a very good team. There are plenty of chances to be in the game and you have good forwards around you that draw good defenders away from you. Clark gets the best defender evey week. He has to operate in a forward line that get limited chances because it comes in a third as often.

He might have dropped a lot of marks, but he's also held a bloody lot of them, especially in the last few weeks: 8 marks against Geelong and 9 against Hawthorn in sides where the delivery was poor and infrequent. In the same time Cloke took 8 and 8 against shite sides where his team won comfortably and the most he's taken all year is 9, so I'd say it's hard to argue that he's a materially better mark than Clark. (Unfortunately there's no stat for dropped marks) I'd like to see stats (or something other than "I think you'll find"s) to back your assertions that 1) "lots of his goals come from ground work" and that 2) "[Cloke's accuracy] is much better than Clark's from a set shot" because both sound false to me without looking too closely.

Hey, I didn't support the dropping decision in any way, shape or form. Consider it our team's loss that we aren't playing him when he's still one of our best players

If what you're trying to say is that our list are the M. Night Shyamalan of the league then I reckon you're onto something. Good early form that shows huge potential, only to underwhelm time after time once well and truly in the public eye. Or maybe It's more like The Village. Willfully living in an era past afraid to do the work required of the modern era.

Dennis Cometti wasn't a bad player and I reckon he'd bring a lyrical game style and a dry humour to our forwards - who clearly need it with the delivery they get.

That could be what we're doing. Inflate Clokes contract as much as possible and see who gets squeezed out

Why? The thread says 'who is star material' - we have always had that. We struggle to turn them into something more substantial. It's the most relevant question. Our players haven't got near their potential. It's easy to see.

I forgot about Casey's bye, damn they actually do mean MFC. To say I've been underwhelmed by Sellar is a big understatement. I'm surprised we even considered him to be honest. He couldn't get a game under Neil Craig yet we somehow see fit to bring him to Melbourne where he's been equally as bad. I really hope the Stefan Martin Experience can get back asap (even though he has been fairly useless this year as well). I would persist with Fitzy if I had to choose between Sellar and Fitzy though.

At this stage I'd take 22 good, honest AFL footballers - stars are hard to come by. Surprised to see Blease and Howe mentioned so often. Howe works hard and is spectacular but is very untidy with his disposal. Blease can't crack a spot in our team when we are crying out for pace around our half forward line. He has a long way to go. Gysberts and Tynan are the only potentials for me, mainly because they can win their own ball in traffic despite under developed AFL bodies.

No not change for change sake. We need better than that. I am sure the work has already begun. Neeld has 3 years. The 1st. is already cooked so this draft period coming could make or break him. Be bold Boss, we have watched in the shadows too long. I grew up fearing Demons. The stuff of nightmares. Let's see some of that on the MCG.

Like all of these comments unsure about Bate I think he still has plenty to offer the structure but could do a little more on second efforts sheperding making space and running into space Although i saw him doing a little of that onlt to get ignored when offering Also would be disappointed if Watts is used in defence as other threads have indicated we do need to reassert our attack and Watts is one player with skill and ability to deliver. Bruce and Green were devalued as attackers (Strikers who scored or created scores) after they spent prolonged time in defence It may have been a necessity for the team back then but IMO we have a great squad of defenders We need them to continue to work with each other and deliver more precisely

You're right in my observation.Not sure why a refocus on defense has to equal a complete absence of attacking flair. Confidence is shot - it looks to me like no-one ( with the obvious exception of Mitch Clark) wants to put themselves in the frame when we pass centre. I can't understand why they won't / can't take it on. At the moment, our goals are coming more by accident than design. Really hard to stomach.

Really late 90s to early 00s. When tactics became 'complicated' and 'expansive'.

an isolated incident or even a number of isolated incidents over the continuous passage of any game can be taken out of context. We are unlikely to know what is the reality of the individuals or the team. Coverage of any beaten team in the rooms is restricted and is certainly different to the scenes in the winners ANY TEAMS I am sure that no Melb player enjoys defeat but the reality is they must accept it and strive not to endure it again If they have done everything they can to avoid the defeat and are spent at the end of the contest it may even be time for a wry smile with your opponent and prepare for the next contest Not sure where Im going with this like others a little bit each way It seems just another way for the press to dump on MELB WINNING IS THE ONLY RESPONSE.

This is just the beginning of a very long process. He will plea, then there will be other hearings when the parties exchange their evidence and witnesses etc, then there would normally be a Committal hearing which could run for a few days or a week where a Magistrate will decide if there is enough evidence to make him stand trial for the serious offences he has been charged with. If the Magistrate decides there is enough evidence then I trial date will be set for a full trial which could run for weeks. This whole process could go on for a year or so. Let's hope they chuck it out very early. And let's hope he gets some really decent legal representation. I hope the Club will guide on that. I know of many Melbourne and Sydney Senior Barristers that go to Alice Springs to defend clients so there shouldn't be a major issue with the local Magistrates over that. More than one of them are very well known in footy circles for representing footballers at the Tribunal and in the Courts.

But they have to get the ball first. And that's the problem.

I agree. I take the view he has said he will play even though he cant even get a finger up his ass to pull it out (as some suggest). He broke the small vertabrae close to the spine and will be stiff for months. You only need to look at the vision of how he did it, by crashing into a pack, to see that he is not A-OK. Im a bit disappointed in some posters views on this. I guess Ill have to get over it.... There are plenty of others to burn rather than those ACTUALLY injured and playing like Col and JT. And let me add, for those who say youre 100% ok if you go out there, what F%%&ing tripe. If the coach says he needs you to grin and bear it, what choice do you have? LJ's choice? Sorry coach I could do with a confidence boosting run at Casey. Thanks pal.

I thought I saw some extremely promising signs in Troy Davis on Saturday. I thought I saw the sort of fierce determination that could make him a bit out of the ordinary.

As strange as it sounds we have the best Morton!

I think at this time now we have Mitch clark as our only A grade player but Nathan jones is about 1 year away from being a star he will get there not from the best skills but bloody hard work. Jack watts and james Frawley should get there and Viney should make it.

My guess is that we are now paying the price of Jack Watts having spent his time playing school football. He looks to me like it has always come easily to him and as a big kid he has not had to work too hard - talent and height gave him an advantage but at AFL level you need hard work and mental toughness to really succeed. Clearly he has loads of talent, is very good below the knees, a terrific kick and can take a contested grab. But there was a moment late in Saturday's game when Jack was one out against an opponent. He had body contact on the opponent and the ball was delivered to his advantage. He lazily (it looked like) stretched out one arm and... dropped the mark. As a kid against smaller, lighter opponents he'd probably have held it. Under Bailey he was promoted too soon, and has not had to earn his place. This has probably compounded the original problem of the game coming too easily to him. I reckon he gets a rough time, and I don't rate NicNat as some do here. NicNat is all icing, no cake. But if JW is to prove Melbourne to have made the right call he has a heck of a lot of work to do. The more urgent need is to inject some pace into the ones and for that Blease did his bit last week, and would have to be under serious consideration for promotion. I don't think Jack did enough against Box Hill to earn a promotion. He has to learn hunger.

Not directly, but the fact that we've only been able to get: 0 games into Cook 2 into Fitzpatrick 4 into Gawn 6 into Blease 11 into Strauss 18 into Gysberts 19 into Tapscott 30 into Jetta 38 into Grimes Is one of the reasons for delayed development.

I think there's something good in it every time we make a noise that makes us sound like a club on the hunt for the best. Instead of 'oh, they've got nothing' the story is 'oh, they have space for something'. Like fighter pilots talking about a 'target-rich environment'.

Sure - I said potential star - i think Mitch already is.

Who's yarren?

Who's Jarah???

Wow. Ground-breaking article. Mick Warner for the Pulitzer! If he ever writes anything worth reading, please let me know...

Not going to happen but just the thought of Fat Ed cracking it over the mere suggestion brought a smile to my face. At least it let's everyone know we have cash and were willing to spend and those at MFC know if theyre not going to act like they give a stuff we'll recruit others who do.