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I actually suggested that there's grey between your assessment and the simplistic view that the alternative to yourself is the happy clapping, strawberry fields Demonland supporter. I'm a debating coach and the first thing I tell my debaters is to take an extreme stance and to distance yourself from the opposition as much as you can. That's exactly what you're doing. That's what makes you a good debater but it doesn't necessarily mean you're accurately summarizing the views of people here. You're suggesting that Watts has critical issues in his game and that the alternative view is that he doesn't and he'll be right in the end. It's not that simple as you've shown yourself by suggesting with a softened view that you believe that the penny will drop and I've shown by acknowledging that I'm disappointed with his unwillingness to assert himself in contested situations. There's your grey. I think most on here share your concerns. Just because one supporter gets a little excited and makes a Brownlow comparison (which I think was unfairly criticized and taken out of context) after his Casey performance doesn't mean that the vast majority of us are putting our heads in the sand and failing to see his flaws. When you make statements like, "I know that 26 disposals and a couple of goals from a wing/half forward will excite nearly every Melbourne supporter", you're setting this up in a Rono-style us versus them argument - the chest beating realists versus the rose-coloured glasses-wearing optimists. You're right, it is a chat forum and of course you're entitled to share a differing view. I just think you regularly choose to stereotype and pigeon-hole those with a very slightly different view to your own to create the impression that there is a huge chasm between you and everyone else. I've always loved reading your contributions and know that you've spent an enormous amount of time defending Jack over his first two and half season over on bigfooty. You've given opposition supporters heaps and Jack hasn't always backed you up and I completely understand your disappointment. I certainly hope, when you suggest that the penny will drop that you're right. The alternative, I'm afraid, is another decade of mediocrity.

I think it was great stuff and I wish I had the patience and eloquence to match it. Nice to know you still think about me. I knew you still held a candle! As for Watts, perhaps a family therapy perspective would be useful (you mentionned the couch). In family therapy - particularly when working in a 'systems' approach, you often see kids and their parents. The beginning perspective you bring is that the child does not 'have a problem' but the "symptoms" the child demonstrates are a result of a dysfunctional system. The child is the "symptom bearer" - the whole family system is the problem and as a result need the attention. I reckon that you could argue that Watts, as the 'child' in the system, has: had permissive coaching in a team with inconsistent rules; older players who do not set a good example; players who are not good; is a young forward in a team with one of the worst - if not the worst- midfield in the comp; no aggressive forwards around him and on-field leaders who don't lead that well. We then expect him to be the A+ student. I think it is a reasonable hypothesis to hold that he might well improve if his "family" has better boundaries, rules and rewards, his siblings were more mature and their competence improves. Then we might see more of the attitudes and behaviours we need to - at least it gives him a fighting chance to show them. That said, he needs to show them and they need to be more than a flicker every fortnight.

This is off the afl website Viney looks ready to follow in his dad Todd's footsteps and don a Demons guernsey right now. The hard-at-it onballer gathered 16 disposals, 10 of which were contested, laid six tackles, kicked a goal and gained six clearances.

Remember when Nixon was found asleep at the wheel (literally) in peak hour traffic one morning near the MCG? That was a good five years before his implosion . I'm not saying drugs are bad. [censored] are bad . Kay?

didnt want to start a new thread but jack played in the AIS squad today in curtain raiser for tigers blues match and tore it up not sure on stats but was getting talked up on the radio aswell as lauchie whitfield who will go no1

We're going to thump them and will be sitting pretty at the top of the table at the end of Round 1.

31st is a Sat. Doubt they will update on a weekend date, esp as so many will be signing up on match day Better comparison is to wait till Mon or Tues next week Remember the season started 4 days earlier last year (sun 27th) so they had time to collate and post the membership results well after the first game The best comparison date is really next Thursday i.e. 31st last year was the first Thursday after the first game.

So what did Jack actually talk about!! We all know the Footy Show is rubbish..

We've cracked the 30k mark: Sitting at 30 098

I am more than happy to have too many contested footy types in this team right now, we were pathetic in contested footy last year. Just hopeless.

I think it's great to see so many young guns showing loyalty and signing big contracts with their current club. Tom Scully, you are an even bigger f'ing d'ckhead now than you were last year. Hope you spend the rest of your career struggling on the sidelines.

Gave it a sympathy "like" Biff.

Evidence based approach: I don't take drugs, I am not a drug addict. Ben Cousins takes drugs, bad things happen. I think the CIA are about to close this thread.

Neeld has been foxing. Watts on wing to play goodes type of game. Just how they played him last week at last we are playing to his current strengths. Joel mac is no surprise (even if I didnt pick him) as he is a hard at it type that neeld would like. Might be a surprise or two on the day.

RF - you have outed yourself as an abstainer, and good on you for making that choice. My question is: If the govt suddenly announced they would revoke legislation that made currently illicit drugs legal would you go out and try some? I know I wouldn't, nor would most people I choose to associate with. To think otherwise shows a lack of faith in our fellow citizens - even though neoliberals could argue that it is their right to choose. All the evidence shows that prohibition has failed and is one of the most harmful social experiments of modern times. We need to try a more rational approach, one that places more emphasis on prevention and evidence-based treatments and less on the failed approach of interdiction. Is that so radical?

Gysberts has been woeful this pre-season. In the intra-club he was poor, in the NAB he played he was terrible and I was disappointed in his efforts against Frankston for Casey a week ago. He greatly needs to improve his endurance and upper body strength. That said, his game last Saturday against Williamstown was good. It was his first good game for the summer.

Perhaps if we took the crime out of drugs there would be less victims of crime.

Cant believe Ricky isnt in the side

I am setting up a big dinner table for those who knock JW . First Course: Humble Pie Second Course:Your own words Dessert: Just

I have to say I'm not disappointed to see Jamie Bennell out of the side. He just doesn't hurt enough offensively to warrant his complete disrespect for his opponent.

Sore he didn't get picked

well its a change from advocating national service in the military

After reading all the arguments on the issues of Ben Cousins, addiction and drug use from many differing perspectives I'll add just a little bit. The ADF (Aust drug foundation) has many stats and research, and most addicts do overcome their addictions. Some may remember back in 2000 the Herald Sun putting a Heroin Overdose Death Tally next to the Road Death tally on its front page. This was done in a time Heroin was lethal. The quality was pure and people were dropping everywhere. Still the ratio of users to deaths were relatively small. Some seem to put a value base on different types of drug. Prescription drugs and alcohol propose a much higher cost of the health of individuals and cost to govt. Tobacco is another destructive drug cost wise. Some are putting a value on Ben drug dealing. Consider this, doctors are effectively drug dealers too. They prescribe drugs to ppl. Yes they are qualified to do this, but this does not make them good at their job? Not always. Benzodiazepines are highly dangerous drugs (Xanax, temazapam, Valium etc) and place a higher cost to the tax payer and the lives of families than Ice My last point is, in Vic, 100,000 ppl are homeless each night. 1 in 3 ppl in homeless services have a drug problem from stats in 2000 (34 000 roughly). Drugs and addiction is a complex issue. So much so it's hard to understand. My advise is value everyone, and hope ppl lead a fruitful life, regardless of circumstance. Addiction may hit your life, it's a societal issues that does not discriminate social or economic barriers. Some disclosed it already has. It's awful and frustrating. But do you wish death on the person?

Nothing like some optimism. Perhaps you should just wish for the end of the world while you're at it. If nothing else be happy that footy is back. Geez, lighten up.

I think that sounds about right. I'd add to it: I've never seen him attack it like Howe (or Trengove, or a raft of others), but I've also never seen him genuinely poo his pants like at least two of the players I'll expect to play this week either. That's probably part of what gives me hope that his "situation" is salvageable.

And how about that Peggy Lee ... this song helped launch her career. A huge hit back in the early 40's. Peggy came from North Dakota and was married 4 times. Other notable Peggy Lee hits were "Fever", "Heart", "Is that all there is" and her first no.1 hit "Somebody else is taking my place." A super talent was Peggy Lee ... Macca 2.6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgnXZopKTqI

I suppose being uninitiated in drugs my key questions on alcohol vs drugs is the concept and affects of moderation and secondly the road to addiction on alcohol vs drugs. I can have one drink and I can work, drive and interact coherently( some may question this !) .Can the same be said for taking a drug ? Unless I am mistaken there are degrees with alcohol - I have one drink and it has a tiny impact on me. An almost imperceptable degree of calming ( taking the edge off). Can you get the tiniest bit stoned on drugs ? More importantly is the addiction question ( which I honestly dont know the answer to) - take 10 guys and give them one beer everyday for a month - after the month how many could stop without any affect - how many would be on the road to becoming alcoholics. Now replace the beer with say ice. With zero insight or knowledge I would suggest that affect a month would be the % of ice users that are moving to addiction be much higher. Thats why I question the equality of the terms social drinker and social drug user. Again I will put in the big disclaimer of not knowing and just throwing out my unsubstantiated thoughts.

I think when Neeld arrived at the club he would have gone through the list and recognised that our player policies prior to his arrival led to some players being played at AFL level prior to doing their apprenticeship in the reserves. By bringing in Clarke, Magner, Couch and Seller he has re-balanced our list and enabled players like Cook, McDonald, Gysberts and next years crop of draftees to be developed and built up at Casey before throwing them into the main team. Did Jack Watts' development as a player suffer because he was blooded too early and had to play against men before he was one himself? I think, undoubtedly. Time has moved on, Jack should be ready now, he's bigger, wiser and seasoned... This year he will unlearn the techniques and mindset he adopted to survive physically against men and start to impose himself, and when he does... Go Jack Watts Go Dees

Well the thread is a train wreck now. Its too general Seems to now cover all drugs, all addiction and all levels of compassion I'm outta here

I'd be a bit more greyer - Jack picks his battle. I have seen Jack Watts go hard. I have not seen him attack ever contest like Jeremy Howe, who does not choose his battles - Howe only knows one way. Flip flopping - I saw an improvement last year to the year before - I want to see improvement in this area again

I rarely drink (lucky to have 10 drinks a year) and dont do drugs. I understand the devastation that alcohol can cause. My mind tells me ( with absolutely no data at all !) that the percentage of social drinkers becoming alcoholics would be significantly lower than social drug users becoming addicts ( and the discrepancy would be even more pronounced if you take weed out the picture). There is a perception that social drinking is ok and we dont make the immediate link to alcoholism whereas social drugs (excluding marijuana) has an association of "dont go there - you are flirting with extreme danger" ie addiction. Am I right ?

I have a really strange feeling that our forward line is going to click on Saturday and give us all an uplifting boost on here... I think with big Sauce Merritt playing forward its going to allow us to free up some of our bigger forwards... Call me optimistic but I believe we are going to see this become a path for blokes like Petterd and Howe to really show their class... If we can match it with their midfield then we will win comfortably... I have a lot of faith in our backline and am chalking this one up as a confidence boosting Rnd 1 victory! Well, here's hoping ��

Dont think i've seen Byron Picket mentioned yet! He was exiting at times

The re-mastered sped up version sounds to me like "the once fabulous Fable Singers" have been over dubbed and overly auto tuned or just digitised to the sheizenhouzen! Way too gay! Music is too fast versus the original, which has authority, depth and kicks the new versions ARSE! When i first heard this version on S.E.N. a few years back i thought it was them having a crack at us being seen on the field as soft or something. I even sent a complaint, but then realised the club was peddling this crap lol. Why do we continually change our heritage every other year anyway? Jumpers, Colours, Song, Logo. Just leave the bloody things alone! And i want me RED back!! We ain't and never will be the roy boys (yeh i know we had a similar maroon back around the turn of the last century but hec.....leave it for the heritage week would ya!). If we keep changing the basis of what defines us "every other year" no one will have any idea who we are soon, including ourselves! Bloody wet eared marketing graduates trying to make a name for themselves....GRRR! Ok...that's Rusty's Rant for this week.

C'mon hardtack, life is all about making choices and accepting responsibility for your actions (or at least it was) tu quoque (/tuːˈkwoʊkwiː/),[1] (Latin for "you, too" or "you, also") or the appeal to hypocrisy, is a logical fallacy that attempts to discredit the opponent's position by asserting his failure to act consistently in accordance with that position; it attempts to show that a criticism or objection applies equally to the person making it. This dismisses someone's point of view based on criticism of the person's inconsistency, and not the position presented.[2] Thus, it is a form of the ad hominem argument.[3]

Really? I hadn't realised that "educated" and "footy show" could be used in the same sentence.

Bring back Uncle Doug, Capt Blood, Louie the Lip, Huttons Footy Frangers and everything else that was good in the world of Sunday's post footy entertainment.

Official team to be announced today at 6:25pm.

Makes sense that most players would be mentally preparing to appear on the footy show which would take focus away from their game preparation, so they'd play worse.

I have the old "Fable" version on my itunes at home so i can always pump it in the lounge room!

I am confident that Jack will become the best footballer Jack Watts can be because I actually believe in this coachiing group's philosophy to development.

No you are probably right. I just struggle with the problem these days. To be honest I am worn out by the problem

No Power and Brown hurts them but we wont win pretty in this one either I cant help but rate the lions list. Would love some more players on our list who have a red hot crack like Rockliff, Banfield etc. Rich, Rockliff, Black is as strong as Trengove Jones and Moloney IMO. Throw the likes of Drummond, Adcock, Merret etc and i reckon they are better than people might like to believe. No Jurrah hurts us - he's performed well against the lions on mroe than one occasion.

Don't apologise too soon, just because it's in the Herald-Sun doesn't make it true.

I'd be quite sure that many international visitors to Melbourne, especially those that are sports nuts, would like to buy an AFL jumper that is Melbourne, rather than one that is Collingwood. Your average American knows about "Australian Rules", so if they were to go back to the USA wearing a red and blue jumper, it would be easier for them to say it's Melbourne. Everyone knows of the city that is Melbourne, they don't know the suburbs so much, so I'm sure the "Melbourne" merchandise would be of interest.

One more - Even though we think JW is meant to be a key forward I would compare him today** to Paul Roos. He played at a time when key position at 188cm was workable. He started life as a very tall winger with the same perceived appetite for the contest as many are saying JW has and ended up as fine CHB earning himself 4 AA's. He never developed the taste for crash and bash but was a excellent footballer none the less. (Today** - as per my previous post I don't subscribe to the view that what Jack Watts is today is what he will be in 3 years time)

Knocking Jack Watts has become a fashionable thing do to this season. As with many things in the AFL once a few commentators make comment everybody wants to jump on board. I think there are a few things we all need to remember to put the whole thing into perspective. I know many of these points have been made earlier but I would like to support them. Firstly since Jack has been at the club the Demons have been consistently among the lowest ranked teams for creating inside 50's. We all know that playing on the half forward line is seen as one of the hardest positions on the field to play. Add to that the lack of supply and the degree of difficulty would have to increase significantly. Jack had three or four good games playing higher up the ground last year where he was able to be more involved in the play and was less reliant on supply from the midfield. His other solid games were when the team was playing well (Fremantle) and he had more opportunity as a forward to have an impact on the match. In the last three years MFC has been developing in many areas of weakness. After watching the Demons play week after week our kicking effiency would have to be among the worst in the league. Playing as a forward trying to make something out the sub-standard disposal from the midfield and half backline at times looked to be close to impossible from the stands. Also the midfield has also been extremely indecisive with their forward movement making it hard for our forwards to create space and make good position. This indecision also come from the lack of forward structure MFC has had for the past 5 or 6 seasons. Jack has often been the key forward for the past two of those years. This is an enormous task for a 19 or 20 year old. Nick Riewoldt had Fraser Gehrig playing full forward while he was developing and Jonathan Brown has Alistair Lynch to help during his development. With structure as a key to the new coaching regime and the inclusion of Mitch Clark it will be interesting to see how Jack fares this year. I see Jacks lack of hardness more as a lack of self belief. I think this has been caused by him being asked to do to much to soon in his career. He has had to play as a key forward in a struggling team, often taking on the best defender of the opposition. As mentioned with a more structured game plan and forward line and the addition of MC, Jack will have much more opportunity to succeed. This should build his self belief and we will see his intensity increase as a result. It may seem like I am making excuses, but in my opinion think Jack has been up against it so far in his career. At times I think he has been mismanaged by the club and I also think he is an easy target for the media. Assuming he stays relatively injury free, he has 10 years of footy ahead of him and possibly 180 to 225 games. I think we will all look back on his entire career with great memories (hopefully including a premiership or two).

Channel 7 talking about Jack Watts during the coverage of Jim's funeral made my blood boil. FFS, can we all just find something else to talk about?!

Is that banjo maroon?

JW just turned 21. Seriously 21! Jack was not born with the baulk of the incredible hulk so to expect JW to crash packs and physically destroy the opposition at the age of 21 is beyond dumb. He is not a midfielder who can walk in and see ball get ball as they say. He is playing what a lot of people have said is the hardest position to play in the AFL. To say he has shown nothing in any of his games really gets me going. I will say he hasn't blown a game away but to be honest being a forward in our team the last couple of years hasn't been easy on anyone (Brad Green) He has shown plenty in plenty of games for me. When we smashed freo last year JW set up that many goals for us. His game against richmond where I believe he kicked 3 and kicked a goal beating two tigers by himself gave me plenty to be happy with. Sure trade our number 1 draft pick who has shown plenty as of last saturday night and while your there you suit up since by your own accord you could show form if you played 30-40 games.