Genuine question. How do people actually come up with their judgements of assistant coaches?

Is it success of the clubs they've been at? How others in the industry have spoken about them. While I appreciate the change is needed I find it hard to get super excited about assistant coaches because it's hard to know if they are coming in to give new ideas or help better execute the status quo.

28 minutes ago, KozzyCan said:

Genuine question. How do people actually come up with their judgements of assistant coaches?

Is it success of the clubs they've been at? How others in the industry have spoken about them. While I appreciate the change is needed I find it hard to get super excited about assistant coaches because it's hard to know if they are coming in to give new ideas or help better execute the status quo.

Generally the successes of the organisations they’ve been a part of, the performance of the areas under their control during that time, and the way their peers and players refer to them (mostly in the media).

Not much else you can go on.

7 minutes ago, Mach5 said:

Generally the successes of the organisations they’ve been a part of, the performance of the areas under their control during that time, and the way their peers and players refer to them (mostly in the media).

Not much else you can go on.

Yeah I guess my problem with that is it's historically not a very reliable indicator of quality. For instance McQualter was the midfield coach at the Tigers for their dynasty and not many seem to rate him. A lot of coaches from dominant sides went on to become senior coaches and failed miserably while guys like Scott and Goodwin were assistants at mediocre teams and found success.

Very hard to work out assistants. Ultimately they have to fall in line to the senior coach so they can only do so much as far as changing the game plan goes. If Bassett is coming in to coach the forwards it doesn't necessarily mean much will change unless Goodwin is finally ready to totally change our philosophy towards moving the ball.

14 hours ago, Demon17 said:

Some of the great coaches were back pocket players who the theory goes can see the whole field. Hence their coaching insights across the ground. 

Speedy  jeans. Parkin. Hafey.

Assets record at Norwood is second to none. 

Who is speedy? 

1 hour ago, Travy14 said:

Alex Georgiou and Michael Evans also came from the Basset system haha

Correct me if I’m wrong Evans I don’t think so, was from WA. I was thinking Mitch Clisby but he was North Adelaide. 

Jace Bode and Juice Newton were 2 we sent over to Norwood tho. 

2 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Correct me if I’m wrong Evans I don’t think so, was from WA. I was thinking Mitch Clisby but he was North Adelaide. 

Jace Bode and Juice Newton were 2 we sent over to Norwood tho. 

Ahh you are correct he went to the legs after his time at the dees

1 hour ago, KozzyCan said:

Genuine question. How do people actually come up with their judgements of assistant coaches?

Is it success of the clubs they've been at? How others in the industry have spoken about them. While I appreciate the change is needed I find it hard to get super excited about assistant coaches because it's hard to know if they are coming in to give new ideas or help better execute the status quo.

This is a great question.  Think about some of the Premiership assistants we have brought in. The 2010 Collingwood Premiership midfield raved about their midfield strategy coach, especially Pendlebury. That of course was Neeld. Then we all, especially me, dreamed of getting the Hawks three peat midfield coach, Yze and by the end that didn't solve our midfield issues, now we've got the Tiger three peat midfield coach who the jury appears to be a bit out on after this season after our ball movement and i50 delivery are as bad or worse than ever.

19 minutes ago, Its Time for Another said:

This is a great question.  Think about some of the Premiership assistants we have brought in. The 2010 Collingwood Premiership midfield raved about their midfield strategy coach, especially Pendlebury. That of course was Neeld. Then we all, especially me, dreamed of getting the Hawks three peat midfield coach, Yze and by the end that didn't solve our midfield issues, now we've got the Tiger three peat midfield coach who the jury appears to be a bit out on after this season after our ball movement and i50 delivery are as bad or worse than ever.

Solved our issues enough to win a flag?

1 hour ago, Mach5 said:

Solved our issues enough to win a flag?

But this conclusion once again raises the flaw in that logic: Yze is a great midfield coach who solved our issues to get us the flag in 2021, but McQualter couldn't get the midfield working for us after being the key to Richmond's midfield dominance during their dynasty.

I'm not convinced that Bassett is the key to fixing our forward set up because our philosophy the past few years has been to deliberately sacrifice the potency of our forwardline to prevent intercept marks and easy rebounds from the opposition. Unless Goodwin is willing to make significant changes to our gameplan those problems will still be there.

Impossible to judge the impact of McQualter this season.  No Brayshaw, Oliver a shadow, Petracca half a season, much of which was spent forward, Viney struggled for large parts. 

4 hours ago, Mach5 said:

Solved our issues enough to win a flag?

Yep for one season then the next two our midfield and clearance work dropped off a cliff. Evidently he couldn't develop and adapt 

4 hours ago, Its Time for Another said:

we've got the Tiger three peat midfield coach who the jury appears to be a bit out on after this season after our ball movement and i50 delivery are as bad or worse than ever.

Then what does that tell you about our midfielders?

(Though do accept they were mostly cooked this year )

 

5 hours ago, KozzyCan said:

Yeah I guess my problem with that is it's historically not a very reliable indicator of quality. For instance McQualter was the midfield coach at the Tigers for their dynasty and not many seem to rate him. A lot of coaches from dominant sides went on to become senior coaches and failed miserably while guys like Scott and Goodwin were assistants at mediocre teams and found success.

Very hard to work out assistants. Ultimately they have to fall in line to the senior coach so they can only do so much as far as changing the game plan goes. If Bassett is coming in to coach the forwards it doesn't necessarily mean much will change unless Goodwin is finally ready to totally change our philosophy towards moving the ball.

I’m not sure if McQualter was a midfield coach for the tigers dynasty.  Xavier Clarke was until the end of 2019.  Then Lonergan.  But McQualter took on the roll of ball movement coach in 2020.

Considering Bassett was forward coach at Port, and watching them was like watching us (a lot of bombing to a pack), I dearly hope he gets another line.

Chaplin did a great job with our forwards in 2017 and 2018.  I hope he gets another go there.

6 hours ago, 58er said:

Who is speedy? 

Gonzalaz

The bloke has not even got in the door and the knives are out for him, because he did not kick 500 goals a season. Chris Fagan did not play AFL, does that mean he cannot coach ?

About time some people get real.

This is fast becoming the most negative  group of people in football, which is supposed to be a game which we enjoy ,not a character asassination bureau.

1 hour ago, Watson11 said:

I’m not sure if McQualter was a midfield coach for the tigers dynasty.  Xavier Clarke was until the end of 2019.  Then Lonergan.  But McQualter took on the roll of ball movement coach in 2020.

Considering Bassett was forward coach at Port, and watching them was like watching us (a lot of bombing to a pack), I dearly hope he gets another line.

Chaplin did a great job with our forwards in 2017 and 2018.  I hope he gets another go there.

I'd forgotten Chaplin was our forward coach in 2017-2018. The ball movement was very quick mind you, but entries were very much central to 30m out.

Would love Chaplin as forwards coach.

And Bassett did oversee a pretty attacking defensive set up at Port...

Again, I like posting this. The majority of our goals come from kicks to the hot spot 30m out.

Highlights: Melbourne v GWS (R23, 2018)

https://www.afl.com.au/video/82285

Edited September 27, 2024Sep 27 by Adam The God

31 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

I'd forgotten Chaplin was our forward coach in 2017-2018. The ball movement was very quick mind you, but entries were very much central to 30m out.

Would love Chaplin as forwards coach.

And Bassett did oversee a pretty attacking defensive set up at Port...

Again, I like posting this. The majority of our goals come from kicks to the hot spot 30m out.

Highlights: Melbourne v GWS (R23, 2018)

https://www.afl.com.au/video/82285

Sort of funny comparing us in 2017-18 to the past few years. Our gameplan isn't all that different. Heavy contested ball, clearance focused side. We still had similar problems, high density of inside 50s, often struggled to find a target but we were still able to score far more easily than we do now. So what changed?

I think back then we had very little going for us in defense so we backed ourselves in to win contested ball and cheated forward a lot more than we do now. Our forwardline wasn't great then either which is why I've never bought the excuse that our current forwardline isn't capable of kicking a decent score. We moved the ball in there a lot faster and that speed and willingness to sacrifice a bit on defense gave us opportunity. We kicked a LOT of joe-the-goose goals. We left Frost and Oscar Mcdonald on a bit of an island as a result but were willing to cop that since they weren't going to hold up defensively anyway.

It would be nice if we could find a happy medium between the two philosophies.

4 hours ago, KozzyCan said:

Sort of funny comparing us in 2017-18 to the past few years. Our gameplan isn't all that different. Heavy contested ball, clearance focused side. We still had similar problems, high density of inside 50s, often struggled to find a target but we were still able to score far more easily than we do now. So what changed?

I think back then we had very little going for us in defense so we backed ourselves in to win contested ball and cheated forward a lot more than we do now. Our forwardline wasn't great then either which is why I've never bought the excuse that our current forwardline isn't capable of kicking a decent score. We moved the ball in there a lot faster and that speed and willingness to sacrifice a bit on defense gave us opportunity. We kicked a LOT of joe-the-goose goals. We left Frost and Oscar Mcdonald on a bit of an island as a result but were willing to cop that since they weren't going to hold up defensively anyway.

It would be nice if we could find a happy medium between the two philosophies.

I think Chaplin would have unique insight into how to blend our offence and our defence, without sacrificing too much back the other way.

We tended to play a much more aggressive forward press in those days, and, yes, we played a strong territory game based on contest and winning CP and clearance.

One of the big shifts tactically between Goodwin era 1 (2017-2019) and Goodwin era 2 (2020-2023) was the emphasis on defence in the second era and how we achieved this.

Era 2 used numbers behind the ball and relied on our superior midfield (Clarry, Trac and Viney with Max) to win enough ball without an extra mid or flanker up at the stoppage. This enabled us to generate an extra behind the ball, to bring our intercept game into play.

Era 1 used extra numbers at the contest, so our superior midfield would overawe the opposition most of the time and keep it inside our 50. We'd press up our defence and lock it inside, making it at times difficult to score for ourselves, and also making us vulnerable out the back on counter. This is where Frost's pace was really important as the defensive anchor. Rawlings tinkered with the anchor, positioning it deeper and then higher depending on the stage of the game.

Era 2 has tended to sit our defence deeper to counter against the counter. That is Chaplin's influence. I think he's a brilliant defensive line coach. He's aided by having great leaders in May and Lever, but when new players come into that system they fit in straight away. They understand their positioning and have trust in their team mates that enables them to zone off or press at the right time.

But as you can see, my view is both eras start at the contest, but the more attacking system relies on more aggressive positioning at the stoppage, with extra numbers.

I'm hoping we go back to a version of this, because that trend became the norm in late 2022 and 2023. It's how Collingwood generated their scoring power. Adding 1 or 2 extras at the stoppages, which left them vulnerable back the other way, but they are blessed with Daicos x2, Sidebottom and Pendles who rarely miss targets ( @binman wrote about how Collingwood moved the ball regularly last year), their starting positions were usually from behind the ball, N Daicos in particular playing a quarterback role. And when you have that fast risky ball movement, you get movement ahead of you too, making the kicks easier, as they're usually into space.

With our ability to win the stoppage and pummel teams in the contest when Clarry, Trac, Viney and Max are fit, we would be very hard to beat now that those guys are more mature than 2018 and we have more reliable defenders in May and Lever behind the ball.

We can rise quickly again next year if we get this right.

Edited September 27, 2024Sep 27 by Adam The God

8 hours ago, 58er said:

Who is speedy? 

I think the poster meant Sheedy

3 hours ago, Its Time for Another said:

Yep for one season then the next two our midfield and clearance work dropped off a cliff. Evidently he couldn't develop and adapt 

'Dropped of a cliff' is a pretty remarkable way to describe consecutive 16 win seasons with 125+ percentage.

Our midfield only began to struggle in mid 2023 when we lost Oliver. Even then it was still highly capable.

This stuff gets so tiresome.

10 hours ago, DeeZone said:

Mind you demon3165 he is 6’3” 190cm.😁

If Caleb is 6 foot 3 I'm a damm giant then.

7 minutes ago, demon3165 said:

If Caleb is 6 foot 3 I'm a damm giant then.

Ha ha not Caleb Daniel I thought we were talking about Fred Bassett. Lol

8 hours ago, KozzyCan said:

But this conclusion once again raises the flaw in that logic: Yze is a great midfield coach who solved our issues to get us the flag in 2021, but McQualter couldn't get the midfield working for us after being the key to Richmond's midfield dominance during their dynasty.

I'm not convinced that Bassett is the key to fixing our forward set up because our philosophy the past few years has been to deliberately sacrifice the potency of our forwardline to prevent intercept marks and easy rebounds from the opposition. Unless Goodwin is willing to make significant changes to our gameplan those problems will still be there.

We tried to move the ball better inside 50 this year at times. Certainly some flatter kicks to leads especially early in the year.

The big challenge will be sustaining the risk and run off half back and through the midfield. Which we did improve on whilst it was tenable this year, before dropping back to long down the line footy once we had no midfield or flanker depth left to work with.

14 hours ago, KozzyCan said:

But this conclusion once again raises the flaw in that logic: Yze is a great midfield coach who solved our issues to get us the flag in 2021, but McQualter couldn't get the midfield working for us after being the key to Richmond's midfield dominance during their dynasty.

I'm not convinced that Bassett is the key to fixing our forward set up because our philosophy the past few years has been to deliberately sacrifice the potency of our forwardline to prevent intercept marks and easy rebounds from the opposition. Unless Goodwin is willing to make significant changes to our gameplan those problems will still be there.

Our philosophy has to change to a more attacking style of play. We need to recruit outside running types plus forwards who are great at finishing. Inside bulls we have enough of. 
To not update our to a different style of player to balance our list is mot going to solve it our problems and prevent us to progress to a more attacking and skill based game plan. 

20 hours ago, 58er said:

Who is speedy? 

That back pocket plumber Kevin. And I can't type.

Doesn't mean Basset can coach. Just as that type of history shouldn't preclude him