Time to go Goody?

[Deemania since 56 6,547]

On 12/09/2024 at 14:12, 58er said:

Well that’s the very reason Simon needs to go or change his philosophy. 
You have seen a power Club  self destruct with a lame administration in front of your own eyes. With an equally out of his use by date by at least 1,year. 

We need drastically a change of style and attitude to footy with some fun back in the game. If not our fans will leave as we are unattractive and not entertaining.

It pains  me to say that with 3 or more of our champions playing still and individually are still great.
But the team needs a refresher from the coaches. 

A power club caught in the clutches of self destruction. Surely a situation to amend, whatever it takes?

[COOLX 184]

Footy coaching is a hard gig ,one minute you are the flavour of the month the next your not. Forget injuries being an excuse , the fact is we didn't pick up suitable back up players to cover our losses. We need a better system for to improve our young back up players so that they have a good opportunity to play seniors. You can call this thinking outside the box !!!. With clubs delisting young talent especially mids we need to recruit a couple of them. Not everyone gets on with the coach of the day and in fact may underperform. The club has made too many reckless decisions regarding list selection and on that basis Goody needs to go.

Didn't Percy Jones coach Carlton to runner's up one year only to be replaced by Jezza. 

[Ollie fan 3,031]

Let's have a look at a few things.

The vaunted Hawthorn/Collingwood fast movement style? Collingwood missed the finals. Hawthorn got there on a wave, very reminiscent of us in 2018, but got found out by what?: pressure, contest and defence. Goody believes that is what counts, especially in finals. He is absolutely right. Last year we went out in straight sets but lost both by a whisker with an absolutely decimated forward line; against Carlton it was really lost by a couple of dumb decisions right at the end. The list was built to this style and plan and it will continue to be the right plan.
 

A constant theme is the "waste" of our list. In terms  of players who ANYONE would rate (not the ones that we all absolutely love eg Viney, but established crème de la creme) we have had Gawn, Oliver, Trac, May, perhaps include Kossie. I flag, multiple top four finishes but a very disappointing year this year, with multiple reasons.

 

Compare:

McRae:  Pendlebury, Moore, Hill, Sidebottom, J Daicos, N  Daicos, arguably de Goey and Elliott: I premiership, 1 fail.

Kingsley: talent everywhere but Whitfield, Greene, Green, Hogan, Taylor, Cadman (no 1 pick).... no flags.

Scott: (of recent times) - Hawkins, Cameron, Dangerfield, Stewart, lots of others that we all hate, not to mention a HUGE home ground advantage, the suspicion of some very dodgy ways of paying players, and  taxpayer-funded facilities off the highest level: 1 flag, fail the next year, jury's out on this year.

Fagan: Neale, Andrews, McCluggage, Starcevich, no 1 pick Rayner, Cameron, many others and another HUGE home ground advantage: No flags yet, doubt if he'll get one this year. 

Etc etc etc

We all see our list and love it and many think it is wasted, but really, it isn't. We have generally - even for  the vast bulk of this year - been in the top level, competing with a real chance. The criticism is very largely misplaced.

 

 

[Ollie fan 3,031]

On 13/09/2024 at 16:31, Deemania since 56 said:

A power club caught in the clutches of self destruction. Surely a situation to amend, whatever it takes?

Not another Lawrence sycophant post, please?

[Ethan Tremblay 29,967]

Doesn’t he have one of the best win/loss records out of the current coaches? 

[drysdale demon 4,673]

7 minutes ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Doesn’t he have one of the best win/loss records out of the current coaches? 

sshhh.

[Older demon 2,663]

Now is not the time to change the head coach! The forward coach has been let go once out of contract. McQualter may well get the West Coast job so another assistant to replace. If you believe the press with Pert running the review then the footy manager is in the spotlight. If Richardson is let go then there is another new face.

Too much change already so leave the head coach where he is and do better at assistant level. 

[Ugottobekidding 1,045]

Gawn backwards under Goodwin.😂 Might get a spoon next year.

[Macca 16,603]

I'm happy to see Goodwin continue but with a revamped FD (the review could lead to such a situation) 

But Simon needs to re-jig our game style.  Nothing too dramatic but what is noticeable watching the finals, is how different the other teams game plans are

The use of the corridor in particular and the play-on in an immediate sense from marks, frees & stoppages

Leg speed and fast ball movement leads to players further afield finding space to receive.  Or backing in a teammate in a one-on-one

There are times to slow the game down a la what the Giants didn't do, but our game plan often centres around slowing the game down (too much)

[Bombay Airconditioning 6,202]

2 hours ago, Ollie fan said:

Let's have a look at a few things.

The vaunted Hawthorn/Collingwood fast movement style? Collingwood missed the finals. Hawthorn got there on a wave, very reminiscent of us in 2018, but got found out by what?: pressure, contest and defence. Goody believes that is what counts, especially in finals. He is absolutely right. Last year we went out in straight sets but lost both by a whisker with an absolutely decimated forward line; against Carlton it was really lost by a couple of dumb decisions right at the end. The list was built to this style and plan and it will continue to be the right plan.
 

A constant theme is the "waste" of our list. In terms  of players who ANYONE would rate (not the ones that we all absolutely love eg Viney, but established crème de la creme) we have had Gawn, Oliver, Trac, May, perhaps include Kossie. I flag, multiple top four finishes but a very disappointing year this year, with multiple reasons.

 

Compare:

McRae:  Pendlebury, Moore, Hill, Sidebottom, J Daicos, N  Daicos, arguably de Goey and Elliott: I premiership, 1 fail.

Kingsley: talent everywhere but Whitfield, Greene, Green, Hogan, Taylor, Cadman (no 1 pick).... no flags.

Scott: (of recent times) - Hawkins, Cameron, Dangerfield, Stewart, lots of others that we all hate, not to mention a HUGE home ground advantage, the suspicion of some very dodgy ways of paying players, and  taxpayer-funded facilities off the highest level: 1 flag, fail the next year, jury's out on this year.

Fagan: Neale, Andrews, McCluggage, Starcevich, no 1 pick Rayner, Cameron, many others and another HUGE home ground advantage: No flags yet, doubt if he'll get one this year. 

Etc etc etc

We all see our list and love it and many think it is wasted, but really, it isn't. We have generally - even for  the vast bulk of this year - been in the top level, competing with a real chance. The criticism is very largely misplaced.

 

 

It’s about balance. We’ve struggled to score for 3 years. An understanding of when to move it quickly is lacking, also our fwd line is so congested and our smalls are often not in the positions.

[Roost it far 7,348]

8 minutes ago, Bombay Airconditioning said:

It’s about balance. We’ve struggled to score for 3 years. An understanding of when to move it quickly is lacking, also our fwd line is so congested and our smalls are often not in the positions.

Watch our 21 finals, we moved the ball beautifully, we were stiff as last year and now we’ve been overtaken by the internal ructions that it seems were always there. A good shakeup, some new faces, a good run with injuries and we should go ok next year. A lot depends on the fortunes of Oliver and Petracca and how they pull up. 

Edited Sunday at 03:56 by Roost it far

[Cranky Franky 1,814]

3 hours ago, COOLX said:

Footy coaching is a hard gig ,one minute you are the flavour of the month the next your not. Forget injuries being an excuse , the fact is we didn't pick up suitable back up players to cover our losses. We need a better system for to improve our young back up players so that they have a good opportunity to play seniors. You can call this thinking outside the box !!!. With clubs delisting young talent especially mids we need to recruit a couple of them. Not everyone gets on with the coach of the day and in fact may underperform. The club has made too many reckless decisions regarding list selection and on that basis Goody needs to go.

Didn't Percy Jones coach Carlton to runner's up one year only to be replaced by Jezza. 

Correct. The back up players we have traded in the last 3 years have been disasters. Bust after bust. Compare that to Hawks & Cats whose player trading has been very good.

Need a new list manager.

[titan_uranus 24,556]

2 hours ago, Ethan Tremblay said:

Doesn’t he have one of the best win/loss records out of the current coaches? 

He has the 7th best W/L record of current coaches, at 57.10%.

The current leader is McRae on 68.92%, then Chris Scott on 68.32%. Then Longmire, Hinkley, Kingsley and Fagan (who is just in front of Goodwin at 57.80%). 

[Macca 16,603]

30 minutes ago, Cranky Franky said:

Correct. The back up players we have traded in the last 3 years have been disasters. Bust after bust. Compare that to Hawks & Cats whose player trading has been very good.

Need a new list manager.

Yes, 1 year or maybe even 2 years of bring in NQR's is bad enough, but 3 years?

That's a massive fail and we would have been better off backing in Jason Taylor with late picks in the 3 drafts

He has such an eye for talent that he might have found 2 or 3 gems.  Instead of that, we've actually gone backwards in terms of real talent levels (across the board)

[Macca 16,603]

25 minutes ago, titan_uranus said:

He has the 7th best W/L record of current coaches, at 57.10%.

The current leader is McRae on 68.92%, then Chris Scott on 68.32%. Then Longmire, Hinkley, Kingsley and Fagan (who is just in front of Goodwin at 57.80%). 

The real debate is how good is Goodwin's coaching now?  I've advocated surrounding Goodwin with a new FD (or ar least, in part) 

As you know, footy changes and evolves and sometimes we need to be the innovator, not adapt to an evolved or evolving game

Right now, it feels like we need to play catch-up just to get back to being a contender again

But players do make coaches and that is often true

In 2021 we had 5 AA's (May, Lever, Gawn, Petracca & Oliver) 

As well as another 5 pushing for selection (Salem, Fritsch, Langdon, Viney & maybe Brayshaw) 

This season it was Gawn with no one else even going close

Edited Sunday at 05:04 by Macca

[Deemania since 56 6,547]

3 hours ago, Ollie fan said:

Not another Lawrence sycophant post, please?

Thank you for the praise; it feels good to be recognised for meritorious thought.

[drysdale demon 4,673]

22 minutes ago, Deemania since 56 said:

Thank you for the praise; it feels good to be recognised for meritorious thought.

Obviously you don't know the meaning praise or meritorious

[Watson11 2,195]

2 hours ago, titan_uranus said:

He has the 7th best W/L record of current coaches, at 57.10%.

The current leader is McRae on 68.92%, then Chris Scott on 68.32%. Then Longmire, Hinkley, Kingsley and Fagan (who is just in front of Goodwin at 57.80%). 

So Clarko and Hardwick are behind Goody on w-l records but Hinkley and Fagan aren’t.  I think it’s universally accepted that 4 flags and 3 flags trumps overall w-l record which just shows the folly of using a w-l percentage to rank a coach.

[titan_uranus 24,556]

13 minutes ago, Watson11 said:

So Clarko and Hardwick are behind Goody on w-l records but Hinkley and Fagan aren’t.  I think it’s universally accepted that 4 flags and 3 flags trumps overall w-l record which just shows the folly of using a w-l percentage to rank a coach.

I would have thought W/L is one metric, amongst others. 

Goody has a better finals W/L record than Chris Scott. Doesn’t make Goody a better coach but it’s still a relevant metric. 

Flags are obviously another relevant metric. 

[Ollie fan 3,031]

On 13/09/2024 at 16:31, Deemania since 56 said:

A power club caught in the clutches of self destruction. Surely a situation to amend, whatever it takes?

And BTW , no, not "whatever it takes". We have some extraordinary players at the moment; let's maximise things and if there is a slide later on, then changes can be made at that time. Drastic changes now might have an effect - but in 3 or 4 years time with no Max, No May, Trac and Oliver past their prime etc etc

[Adam The God 29,291]

5 hours ago, Macca said:

I'm happy to see Goodwin continue but with a revamped FD (the review could lead to such a situation) 

But Simon needs to re-jig our game style.  Nothing too dramatic but what is noticeable watching the finals, is how different the other teams game plans are

The use of the corridor in particular and the play-on in an immediate sense from marks, frees & stoppages

Leg speed and fast ball movement leads to players further afield finding space to receive.  Or backing in a teammate in a one-on-one

There are times to slow the game down a la what the Giants didn't do, but our game plan often centres around slowing the game down (too much)

These were all features of Goody 2017-2018.

I hope we revert to this style too, but with an emphasis maintained on forward half territory and stoppage, with forward half intercept.

[Macca 16,603]

17 minutes ago, Adam The God said:

These were all features of Goody 2017-2018.

I hope we revert to this style too, but with an emphasis maintained on forward half territory and stoppage, with forward half intercept.

The change doesn't have to be that dramatic but right now, we are easy to read and the opposition backmen would know how we go about our forward forays

We're often looking for a forward line stoppage (boundary side) but so too is the opposition.  We're just playing into their hands often into a crowded forward line as well

We just need the opposition and the opposition backmen to not know how we're going about it.  Variety creates confusion

It would help a lot if we had genuine marking power up forward but that is a work in progress

We need JVR and company to get better at taking grabs.  Along with decent delivery

It all stems back to fast ball movement and decent disposal efficiency.  Leg speed and schemes to escape the midfield pressure

Watching the good teams going about it during the finals is a learning exercise.  For the FD.  At least, it should be

[Superunknown 4,052]

5 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

Correct. The back up players we have traded in the last 3 years have been disasters. Bust after bust. Compare that to Hawks & Cats whose player trading has been very good.

Need a new list manager.

I agree 

I think list decisions have a lot to answer for

to what extent does Goodwin and coaching get involved in list management (trading in particular)? Genuine question

[Pates 9,624]

I'm enjoying the discussions on here regarding Goodwin and it's refreshing to see it differ from the "Sack Goodwin" rhetoric. Most on here agree that he has largely done a decent job and that our list is actually probably overrated rather than underrated. 

Our dip this year is hardly a surprise given all of the issues we've had to deal with in injuries, retirements, and lack of pre-season to key players. 

So when analysing Goodwin's efforts as coach it must be said that while we failed in a few key areas, and that there are changes required, with a depleted squad were still able to go close to beating Brisbane at the GABBA, Port at Home, and GWS at home. While also beating Geelong and Port (away) earlier in the season. These are scalps that show we aren't too far off the pace, but that we need a bit more luck a tweaks to the gameplan.

I'm glad that it looks like there will be a refresh in the FD, Stafford moving on is a great start. I also think Goodwin needs someone that can help him swing changes quicker on game day, too often he stands by original plan and by that stage it's too late.

[D4Life 2,393]

15 hours ago, Cranky Franky said:

Correct. The back up players we have traded in the last 3 years have been disasters. Bust after bust. Compare that to Hawks & Cats whose player trading has been very good.

Need a new list manager.

List management definitely needs a review as not sure who we have traded in since 2021 has helped the team vs May, Lever, Langdon, Hibberd all contributed to the flag winning team.