Players that should go

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

Well I wouldnt bloody blame him, he has been a good player for us which someone else at the club mustve agreed with to make him vice-captain.

What a dumb arse decision that was.

He held us over a contractual barrel in 2002 and 2005 and though paid as a marquee player performed like a self indulgent inconsistent front runner.

The greatest symbol of his leadership was him tossing the coin in the 2005 EF and running straight to the bench.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I just dont understand how u can be so negative about one of our players who has generally over his career been super consistent. He is not selfish and he always puts in, he is an exciting player and has the ability to lift the team

Who are you talking about?

Bub was speaking about Yze.

[beelzebub 23,383]

yes he( ooze) has ability.. intermittantly. and its on the wane. Dont confuse negativity with matter of factness. So many peopel get so attached to this bloke ot hat..its all rubbish... they are profesionals. they are pieces in a jigsaw..they are widgets for want of a better description. Not one of them is that singularly important that they deserve consideration above the team.

I have often said that I couldnt care less who is wearing the jumpers on the day we win a premiership...and why would you? I barrack for a team . I want to see it succeed. Do you care who is playing...who is coaching ? on that great day !! Everyone running onto that ground is paid to do so. Some do it better than others.

if anyone could go and handpick a team a-la the good ol Big V days and have yourself a super side...would you not let them play in red and blue ? ( yes its farcial..but some may get the gist ). ..and for every better player you introduce...someone is cast aside !!

In amatuer land you can afford to be forgiving and supportive to all the nuances and idioscyncracies of the players....after all its just a sideline for them. Even if playing with passion and love for the game...the minute you cash that big check...I for one will hold you accountable in the context of team worth!!

[Jonesy is the next captain 0]

yes he( ooze) has ability.. intermittantly. and its on the wane. Dont confuse negativity with matter of factness. So many peopel get so attached to this bloke ot hat..its all rubbish... they are profesionals. they are pieces in a jigsaw..they are widgets for want of a better description.

Well I just do not have that mentality. The players are part of the jigsaw yes but each of them brings something different to the table. As I said earlier I dont just think they are part of a machine to be chewed and spat out. Yze has been a great player for the club whether u want to admit it or not. He has had a bit of a slump but as I said he is ageing it is harder to stay at ur best as u get older but he is there in the team for a reason, as a senior player. Ah so I take it u are the type of person that doesnt have a favourite player then because that would be getting too attached????

[kramer 0]

Ward- absolutely does nothing- ineffective, and a liability

Holland- Can't play anywhere consistently- makes too many errors, cant kick properly (bird drop)

Wheatley- seriously..worst 100 gamer ever

Ferguson- shouldve traded him for Brad Sewell end of 2005 when Hawthorn wanted him

4 players Daniher shouldve got rid of by now- Danihers weakness has been List Management

bizzell holland miller ward cj brown godfrey wheatley fergerson warnock jamar @ daniher

[Bobby McKenzie 2,387]

You don't even see the real reason why I advocate trading Bruce do you? He's a good player I don't argue that, but, he's no superstar and if we want to get a superstar here, we need to cut loose some good players at our club that have trade value in the eyes of the other 15 clubs in the comp. In my eyes, Cam Bruce fits this bill to a tee. Sorry if I didn't spell this out more clearly above.

P.S. I'm not a clown

Maybe you are not a clown but to say Bruce is SOFT makes one think you could be TRYING to be a clown! ANYONE who is good enough for AFL is far from soft. I don't know your footy background, but go out there next week and win the ball 35 times and see how you like it when someone comes along and says you are soft! We have our tough players. You need a balance of skill and toughness. Robbie Flower wasn't a tough guy but he was a brilliant footballer. Cam Bruce is not as good as Flower, but he is our most prolific ball getter. He is our Robbie Flower of today.

[Real Demon 232]

No wonder we have threads saying "we need champions".......any MFC player anywhere near that status is completely shredded by our own supporters!!!!!!

Yze has been a star for the MFC!

He may not have been a Robert Harvey, or Scott West in and under ball magnet, or a high leaping key forward, but he has been a game breaker on his day, and one of the most gifted players we have seen wear the red and blue......and a life member of the MFC to boot!

You would struggle to find a more consistent player at the club over the past 10 years.......we may be 0-9 but lets not dismiss some of our players who have been great servants for our club.

[beelzebub 23,383]

wrong call.

ooze isnt robert harveys left wet sock!! So far removed it isnt funny

[leucopogon 1,519]

Here we go again. Re: Cam Bruce, plain and simple I reckon he's prone to moments of softness and occasionally shirks the hard contests. Look at that no-look handball he dished off to an opponent in the first term when he was about to get a tackle layed on him on the wing. Also his disposal seems to be getting worse with each game and yet still everyone here lauds him as the messiah. I can't see it.

I admit he's a serviceable player and probably has good trade value, so I say lets cash in and try to bring in a better player to the club. You need to sacrifice quality to get quality and Cam Bruce has flattered to deceive for far too long in the Red & Blue for my liking. As for those touting him as the next skipper, God help us if that happens. He's not leadership material.

[Nicho 1]

You are a clown.

If Bruce was in a gun team then we would be an absolutle superstar.

He is basically a carbon copy of Andrew Embley but in a [censored] team.

We cant trade him but he is soft. However hes about the only player in our team whohas class....

The players we should look at trading are;

Green unless Daniher is sacked and Green played as a permanent loose defender like Goddard

Miller: Hasnt learnt but shoud only trade if we get some good picks out of it

Delist the following because no one will want them;

Fergo

Wheatley

Godfrey

Neville

Jamar

[drdrake 3,187]

You need to look at where we look our weak areas to see what type of players we need to keep. We have to many slow tall players, two out of Bizz, Ferguson, Holland and Warnock will go I'd say the first two. Two maybe three of the following running players Ward, Brown, Wheatley, CJ, Neville, Yze and we should trade Jamar and promote Neaves. I can't see us delisting any more than 4-5 players.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

You need to look at where we look our weak areas to see what type of players we need to keep. We have to many slow tall players, two out of Bizz, Ferguson, Holland and Warnock will go I'd say the first two. Two maybe three of the following running players Ward, Brown, Wheatley, CJ, Neville, Yze and we should trade Jamar and promote Neaves. I can't see us delisting any more than 4-5 players.

Yze is contracted until next year. And is of little trade value too.

What would you get for Jamar and he is out of contract? He's not good enough.

[DemonDoug 0]

Although a big cleanout is tempting as a way to fix our woes, remember it usually consigns a team to 2 or 3 years of rebuilding before becoming a realistic chance again. Perhaps only a small cleanout and have a last crack next year.

Our problems this year appear to be a combination of

Injuries

Lack of confidence

A poor game plan

Poor skills

A club culture

However in the last 2 years we were in finals and both years if we had not had major slumps would have been in the top 4.

It cannot be our skills are as bad as they appear to be at present. However the slumps we have had our very concerning, as has been this year, it demonstrates an inability to reverse a form slide which really ties into a club culture sort of thing. You just don't see better clubs losing strings of games, losing just drives them to perform better, with MFC it seems to sap their confidence and drive them into negativity

So I suspect a huge cleanout is not the best way to go. However for sake of argument, my list would be

Definitely

Ferguson - too injury prone

Holland - past it

Jamar - not good enough

Pickett -past it

Ward - not good enough

Possibly

Yze - because he will not get any better

Moloney - reluctant but what use is a player who cannot be on the ground due to an obvious long term injury

Brown - I like his run but his disposal is not good enough

Miller - Would be very reluctant, I think with confidence again he will be a good player for us

Godfrey - May keep him as a stopper, but I somehow can never see us making the top 4 with him in the side

I would keep Bruce, Green etc, they have been great players and can be the basis of our re-surgence

[mauriesy 7,357]

Although a big cleanout is tempting as a way to fix our woes, remember it usually consigns a team to 2 or 3 years of rebuilding before becoming a realistic chance again ...

So I suspect a huge cleanout is not the best way to go.

We are going to have a moderate cleanout over the next two years simply by virtue of age.

If you look at our list, here's the oldest players (ages at end of 2007):

32: Neitz

31: Bizzell, Brown, McDonald

30: Holland, Pickett, Ward, White, Yze

While the critical future replacements for these are a full-forward for Neitz, a ruckman for White and to a lesser extent a midfielder for McDonald, I don't believe the rest of the players in this age group are critical (other than for injury replacements) to the team's performance for 2007-08. We'd be much stronger with Bartram instead of Brown, Whelan instead of Ward for example.

So in the next two years these nine 30+ players will retire (probably some will be forced out by non-renewal anyway). Given, say, 4-5 draft selections, a rookie elevation and a trade in any one year (12 new players over two years) that's only three other players to go ... probably players like Jamar, Neville and Ferguson would be the sum total of any "forced" cleanout.

[deanox 9,989]

bizzell, ward, holland, ferguson, jamar, neville, pickett, brown, wheatly, miller, warnock and CJ are the players in the gun for delisting. because they arent getting regular games or arent good enough in the long term. of that list, 5 are going to be 30 or more at the end of this year. i think we'll see holland retained as a back up defender. the jury is out on pickett, if he picks up his act there could be another season in him. ferguson hasnt shown enough and he's had enough chance, if holland is retained as the back up tall, only two of ferguson, warnock or bizzell should keep a spot (perhaps even only 1). personally i think jamar has run his dash if he cant force his way in by the end of the season, and neaves will be promoted. ward, brown, CJ and wheatly are all generally played across the half back line. i think CJ has the most up side of all of them but it wouldnt surprise me if one of ward or brown is retained for experience. miller will either be traded or retained. you dont delist 22yo, 194cm KPP with 50 games of experience. i dont think he is up to it but we'd be silly to sack him. his size alone makes him worth to keep as depth, and i still think he has a chance as a post DN FF, closer to goals suits him more. i dont know enough about neville but i beleive he hasnt shown enough, is that correct?

out: ferguson, bizzell, jamar, ward, neville. (maybe pickett)

retained: holland, warnock (back up KPD), CJ (another year of development) brown, wheatly (back up experienced defenders), miller (back up KPF), pickett (best 22 if he choose to play on and is fit enough)

Other than pickett none of those players should be getting regular games, even by the end of this year. holland is in atm for rivers, and brown and ward are in because of injuries to wheelan and bartram.

clearly we cant just sack all the players who are fringe because we would be playing first years as a backup, but 5 delistings is enough for one season, the other players will offer more than a 6th round draft pick.

the following year might see any of white, neitz, holland, yze, brown, mcdonald or pickett retire, we will be a very green team in 2009, and if our drafting over the next 2 years is good (particularly this year) i think we will be challenging again 2011, that is if we don't have a big one next year.

[GM11 782]

firstly - Excellent thread - Excellent opinions.

My opinion on some of the players mentioned -

Bruce - outside player & receiver. Nothing wrong with that though, every team has them. Really needs to work on his delivery though. The possessions he gets should be much more damaging than they are. Keep.

Green - half forward flanker. Could be a damaging one. Can mark & kick. Hard to match up on. Keep .

Miller - I reckon he is still playing injured. No inside info here, but he has become reluctant to kick again. Could it be OP? Keep .

Godfrey - still our main stopper. I reckon Bartram is earmarked for midfield when he comes back. Disposal is nowhere near as bad as some think. Keep.

Holland - Has to stay unless we can find another big bodied experienced player who can play both ends. Keep.

Ferguson - Sad that he hasn't been able to stay fit. Trade or Keep.

Warnock - Still has potential but ...... Trade.

Moloney - Tough inside player. Players like him are gold. Just have to trust he can get over the OP. Keep.

Jamar - Hasn't come on as well as expected. The worry is he is the type of player who could suddenly click. Keep.

Ward - need to keep unless someone better at his role comes along. Trade or Keep.

Brown - Sad but Trade or Delist.

Bizzell - Good back up player. Keep.

Judd - of course you would get him if you could. But have to weigh up improvement vs. cost.

Pavlich - probably prefer him to Judd, only because we need to improve our scoring options more than anything at the moment.

[Jarka 767]

We are going to have a moderate cleanout over the next two years simply by virtue of age.

If you look at our list, here's the oldest players (ages at end of 2007):

32: Neitz

31: Bizzell, Brown, McDonald

30: Holland, Pickett, Ward, White, Yze

While the critical future replacements for these are a full-forward for Neitz, a ruckman for White and to a lesser extent a midfielder for McDonald, I don't believe the rest of the players in this age group are critical (other than for injury replacements) to the team's performance for 2007-08. We'd be much stronger with Bartram instead of Brown, Whelan instead of Ward for example.

So in the next two years these nine 30+ players will retire (probably some will be forced out by non-renewal anyway). Given, say, 4-5 draft selections, a rookie elevation and a trade in any one year (12 new players over two years) that's only three other players to go ... probably players like Jamar, Neville and Ferguson would be the sum total of any "forced" cleanout.

Good post ML, it would be interesting to see when these players contracts finish up.

[Real Demon 232]

wrong call.

ooze isnt robert harveys left wet sock!! So far removed it isnt funny

Different types of players, and as such, should be judged differently.

You don't have to like Yze, but at least respect his career......he has been a terrific player for our club whether you agree or not.

[DemonDoug 0]

We are going to have a moderate cleanout over the next two years simply by virtue of age.

If you look at our list, here's the oldest players (ages at end of 2007):

32: Neitz

31: Bizzell, Brown, McDonald

30: Holland, Pickett, Ward, White, Yze

Good post, however only one of those names makes me shudder if they go (Neita). I don't believe White is the force he used to be, but we clearly need another good ruckman ASAP. Where we finish on the ladder in the next 2-3 years is going to be very dependent on how smart the recruiting is. No more 'has beens' like Byron, we need good young guns who have no fear and can change the club culture

[beelzebub 23,383]

Different types of players, and as such, should be judged differently.

exactly my point !!!

......he has been a terrific player for our club whether you agree or not.

hmm... '....has been' am agreeing with you more and more.

[DEES 0]

i still think that neville has a chance, he was injured for the whole season last year. He has consistenty been named in the best throughtout the season so far. He was a late pick up, which makes him a bit of a smoky, but he pretty much is doing the same thing Newton was doing last year, being named in the best. There is still hope for neville and when the season comes to an end, then we should make our assesment on him.

[gOLLy 401]

Great post both LM and GM666. Finally some sense around here.

[Rogue 585]

Great post both LM and GM666. Finally some sense around here.

Err, so who are we getting rid of if GM666 is in charge?

[Gouga 570]

GM 666 if we keep all the players you propose they'll be no room for three draftees.

I think our core group of players will put us in good stead for the next few years. We don't need a total cleanout but I believe this year we should turnover more players than usual.

I'd like to see us draft four blokes from the national draft, one in the pre-season draft (Valenti) and one from a trade (Judd?) and promote Neaves.

That is 7 players that need to make way. That's 18% of our list.

The following names are talked about as possible delistings or trades: Bizzell, Brown, Ferguson, Godfrey, Holland, Jamar, Miller, Neville, Pickett, Ward, Wheatley

I figure of those 11 players four keep their spot.

So of those four who gets my vote? Godfrey, Jamar, Miller and Pickett.

Godfrey - our only real tagger. Probably not in our best 22 but will still be valuable in years to come.

Jamar - still not convinced about PJ. I think Jamar is just out of form. he did a good job for us last year. If there is one thing I hate is watching Jolly play at Sydney and Simmonds at Richmond. I'm not prepared to let go of Jamar while he still has something to offer. The rest of the year will be telling.

Miller - toughest call out of the players who stay. I too believe he is somehow hampered by injury. He is a hard worker, loves the club, still has leadership qualities. The potential is there, we just need a coach that can make him a great player. I think it is very possible. Needs the most work, but could provide us the greatest reward.

Pickett - Can provide us that edge. Why get rid of a bloke who has won two premierships when no one else on the list has? Pickett owes us, he is refocused on his career and I want him on my team not the opposition.

Of the blokes that I have selected to go:

Bizzell - Love him. Should have been a regular over the last three years had it not been for injury and ND's determination not to give him oppurtunities. If only he wasn't 31.

Brown - Has got the most out of his career. Should be satisfied with what he has achieved. No future at AFL level.

Ferguson - Was such an exciting prospect in 2003. Injury has ruined his career. It has happened to so many others.

Holland - Does the job. Not much more to say. Handy depth but he cannot justify taking somebody else's spot on the list.

Neville - ???

Ward - No respect for somebody so undisciplined (pick up somebody!) Thanks for playing. I'll never forget your 4 goals against Brisbane in 2002.

Wheatley - If we got to keep one more it would be Wheatley. Purely because of his age.

[deanox 9,989]

gouga, i think delisting 7 is a lot, we wont have 7 picks in the draft. i think delisting 5 or 6 is more likely.

of the blokes you want to delist i think we'll keep one of ward or brown as cover for running players. CJ, bartram and petterd are also cover for these positions but i like to think the later two will slot into the 1st 22 when fit. i also think we'll keep holland because we would have only 1 tall defender in reserve (warnock) which is too much of a risk, given frawley is still young and rivers is struggling with injury atm.

you are right, wheatly is a smoky because of his age, the fact he has been hampered by injury and because we know he can kick it well...

personally i would do the same as you except: keep wheatly, holland and ward/brown, but get rid of jamar and promote neaves. i am still delisting 5 players and promoting a rookie. the other delisting if we think the draft is deep will be the running back. if jamar cant force his way back into the dees this year he is gone.