On 22/02/2024 at 01:53, titan_uranus said:

An honestly ridiculous take which stems from the unfair notion that we should win more than one flag with this list. 

It’s an unreasonably high benchmark.

Any club who wins more than one is incredible. But that doesn’t mean winning only one is a failure. Winning flags is extremely hard and gets harder every year equalisation continues to be an AFL focus.

Try asking Brisbane fans how they feel having won 0 from 5 years of contending.

The sooner Melbourne fans and the media stop saying a second flag is “the minimum”, the better. 

I think it also stems from having been stuck in our houses and unable to fully savour the flag at the G. Winning the flag was amazing but there's a hollowness to it that won't be erased until I see the Demons win a premiership at the G in the flesh.

  On 23/02/2024 at 02:19, binman said:

Too bloody right - well said

Two things particularly annoy me about rubbish like claiming the dees will have failed if we don't get another flag from this group.

One, it is widely accepted as fact (repeated ad nausea by the media, coaches and ex players) that it IS INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT TO WIN A FLAG. It is also accepted as fact that this is even more so the case with equalization than say 20 years ago (bombers say hi).

Two, many of those same pundits (and lets be honest, some DL posters) think our list is over rated. 

Yet somehow us winning only one flag is some sort of failure? Please.

Talk about having your cake and eating it too. 

Where is the narrative about the Cats taking 11 years to win flag after 2011 despite being in the top 4 or 8 the entire time? And having the most ridiculous  home ground advantage in the competition? 

And the discussion also provides the haters a convenient out of we do win the flag this year - well they should have snagged another with their list. 

People are quick to knock Pies, Blues and Tigers fans for being so one eyed and 'feral'.

Well, i wish we had more fans willing to fly the flag and push back against the nonsense constantly directed at our club. 

We are an easy target in part because some of our fans be like:

'oh, yeah, you're right one flag would be a waste  given how talented our list is, which by the way isn't actually that good, over rated in fact by rose coloured glasses nuffy set, and nowhere near as good as that of the pies - by the way don't you just love Macrae, at least he knows how to talk to the media, unlike straight sets Simon' 

There has absolutely been that narrative about Geelong, especially after so many Prelim failures. Scott was on his last legs in 2021.

Pies, Blues and Tigers fans are feral, they also don't accept failure. Making excuses for this playing/coaching group isn't going to help. There should be accountability. Now that doesn't mean flag or failure, but straight sets two years running and a stale gameplan with cultural issues means supporters are within their rights to ask questions.

We’re never out of it with Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Lever, Gawn, May, Kozzy in the team.

yes we have had issues off field but our issue has been injuries since 2021, when you pay a fortune for two forwards that cannot stay on the park (Brown and McDonald) you’re always up against it.

list management is how you continually show up and perform, losing Gus is like losing Selwood to the cats, he cannot be replaced, I have doubts on this year because of the loss of Gus and not what happened over the preseason.

We could potentially have $2.2-$2.5 (loss of Gus, BBB, T-Mac) in cap room next yeah, we we can bring in a decent forward, back and ruck to help supplement our older guys, we’re hanging around the top four until Viney retires.

Lamb has the biggest job next offseason, if he isn’t working the room of every other club this year, yes we will be a one hit wonder, if he can add some pieces around Petracca, Oliver, Viney, Lever, JVR, Kozzy look out.

I think we’ll miss finals this year and really draft and trade in heavily next year.

Goody was very “us vs the world” in his Gus tribute, I got the feeling he was trying to convince the players more then the supporters base.

 

Im there round 0 cheering on the boys!

  On 22/02/2024 at 01:00, Dee Viney Intervention said:

I think Vanilla Ice has us covered 

Smoke on the Daughter!

Post reported.  Enjoy your holiday from Demonland @marieisademon.

The media has been harsh on us.

It's failed to recognize that we have had one of the most depleted forward lines around.

Last year Fritta started late due to injuries which he had on and off all year and probably was never completely right

Bbb was injured.

Tmac was injured.

Grundy wasn't a forward and couldn't mark.

Jvr was playing his first year.

Petty went down.

Melksham stepped up but did his knee right before finals.

I mean come on.

It also glosses over the fact that had Maynard not knocked out Gus we probably would have beaten The Filth.

Edited February 25, 20241 yr by leave it to deever

There has been alot of discussion about our straight set exit from finals, off field issues, our injury list and the gap that Gus's retirement will leave in the team. What hasn't been discussed is the matter of our players having babies and/or pregnant partners on the eve of the season and how this may serve as a distraction in our 2024 campaign.  While this is great news from a personal perspective outside of football, as a parent I do worry about the impact of nighttime feeds on sleep and the morning sickness, food cravings, and general irritability of pregnant partners on our playing list.

  On 26/02/2024 at 01:14, chookrat said:

There has been alot of discussion about our straight set exit from finals, off field issues, our injury list and the gap that Gus's retirement will leave in the team. What hasn't been discussed is the matter of our players having babies and/or pregnant partners on the eve of the season and how this may serve as a distraction in our 2024 campaign.  While this is great news from a personal perspective outside of football, as a parent I do worry about the impact of nighttime feeds on sleep and the morning sickness, food cravings, and general irritability of pregnant partners on our playing list.

We're not the only club making babies. What do you want the club to do forbid the players to have relations during their careers? In any event look at the brightside; our 2024-25 team could be stacked with talent.

  On 26/02/2024 at 01:14, chookrat said:

There has been alot of discussion about our straight set exit from finals, off field issues, our injury list and the gap that Gus's retirement will leave in the team. What hasn't been discussed is the matter of our players having babies and/or pregnant partners on the eve of the season and how this may serve as a distraction in our 2024 campaign.  While this is great news from a personal perspective outside of football, as a parent I do worry about the impact of nighttime feeds on sleep and the morning sickness, food cravings, and general irritability of pregnant partners on our playing list.

Crack down on players having kids.... interesting. Where are our father/sons going to come from though?

 

  On 25/02/2024 at 23:57, leave it to deever said:

The media has been harsh on us.

It's failed to recognize that we have had one of the most depleted forward lines around.

Last year Fritta started late due to injuries which he had on and off all year and probably was never completely right

Bbb was injured.

Tmac was injured.

Grundy wasn't a forward and couldn't mark.

Jvr was playing his first year.

Petty went down.

Melksham stepped up but did his knee right before finals.

I mean come on.

It also glosses over the fact that had Maynard not knocked out Gus we probably would have beaten The Filth.

Correct. Our midfield and Defence has been really strong, but our forward line has been stuck together with sticky tape since the end of the 2021 season.

Compare that to the Lions forward line from 2001-2004 of Alastair Lynch, Daniel Bradshaw, Jonathan Brown, Jason Akermanis, Luke Power and Martin Pike. Pretty fair difference in quality!

  On 26/02/2024 at 01:14, chookrat said:

There has been alot of discussion about our straight set exit from finals, off field issues, our injury list and the gap that Gus's retirement will leave in the team. What hasn't been discussed is the matter of our players having babies and/or pregnant partners on the eve of the season and how this may serve as a distraction in our 2024 campaign.  While this is great news from a personal perspective outside of football, as a parent I do worry about the impact of nighttime feeds on sleep and the morning sickness, food cravings, and general irritability of pregnant partners on our playing list.

OR you could look at it from the point of view that family culture is excellent to have and that the boys are family oriented and not spending their saturday nights down at revs. 

  On 25/02/2024 at 23:57, leave it to deever said:

The media has been harsh on us.

It's failed to recognize that we have had one of the most depleted forward lines around.

Last year Fritta started late due to injuries which he had on and off all year and probably was never completely right

Bbb was injured.

Tmac was injured.

Grundy wasn't a forward and couldn't mark.

Jvr was playing his first year.

Petty went down.

Melksham stepped up but did his knee right before finals.

I mean come on.

It also glosses over the fact that had Maynard not knocked out Gus we probably would have beaten The Filth.

Spot on. And I would grab any day 3 top 4 finishes and a flag.

 

  On 25/02/2024 at 09:35, Dr. Gonzo said:

Pies, Blues and Tigers fans are feral, they also don't accept failure. Making excuses for this playing/coaching group isn't going to help. There should be accountability. Now that doesn't mean flag or failure, but straight sets two years running and a stale gameplan with cultural issues means supporters are within their rights to ask questions.

What i meant about Pies, Blues and Tigers fans is that they push back against the media. 

But they don't accept failure?

You're probably right, but ironically that reflexive desire for 'accountability' and not 'accepting failure' is the key reason all three clubs were in fact failures for so long.

Fans of the Pies, tigers and Blues had plenty of practice at accepting failing. 

Feral fans not accepting 'failures' meant all three clubs repeatedly shot themselves in the foot in the form of upheaval at board level and sacking coaches. 

And ironically the path forward for all three clubs was not being led by the nose by their feral fans' desire for scapegoats and 'accountability'. 

Take the tigers. Their fans were going nuts at their repeated 'failure' to make the finals under Hardwick. There was talk of board coups and total upheaval. The board, learning from past mistakes, weathered the storm and stayed the course And won three flags to become the best team of the modern era. 

After a similar period of upheaval and chaos (and failure), the Pies stabilized under McGuire and Buckley. Yes, they ultimately replaced Buckley but he had a decade as senior coach, almost won them a flag and i'm guessing the first positive win loss record of any coach since perhaps Hafey. No way McCrae has his success without that foundation.

And the blues? A basket case for decades. Burning through coaches and board members. A board coup always on the cards. Hell, halfway though last season the blues fans, who don't accept failure, were screaming for blood. A high profile board coup seemed inevitable. Voss was in the gun. 

But the board took the tiger's lead, stayed the course, ignored the baying fans who don't accept failure, and had their best season in 20 plus years. And the only thing that changed was the tune of the don't accept failure crew. 

The Cats have long been rightly lauded for their excellent administration and governance.  I think that was one reason their fans never went full feral on the board to axe Scott. They were rewarded for not conflating not winning flags and 'failure' by winning another flag. Like the tigers, they stayed the course and were rewarded. 

What does accountability mean in the context of a team, coach, administration and board that won us our first flag in 57 years just two seasons ago, and followed it up with two top 4 finishes?

Sure it was heartbreaking to go out in straight sets two years in a row. But only feral fans would really consider that a pretext for some accountability, which in footy speak is sacking the coach and/or board. Is that what we want? Even when we know that history is crystal clear that is the path to failure? 

On your final point doc, personally i don't agree that we have a stale game plan, or that we have cultural issues (or at least no more than other clubs - i think this is a classic media beat up), but that is another discussion. 

But i totally agree fans have every right to ask questions.

What i find bit frustrating on Demomnland is how often discussion becomes binary and devolves into camps. There is a lack of nuance. 

It is equally frustrating to be pigeon holed as some pollyanna optimist who is unconditionally positive and refuses to acknowledge issues (to be clear, i'm not saying you are dong so here doc, or have form doing so).

It is possible to both be critical of the club AND think we are heading in the right direction. 

Positing potential reasons for something occurring (eg our forward line injuries impacting our finals campaign) is not making excuses for this playing/coaching group. Being positive about our chances is not accepting failure.

The same is true of criticism of the club.

I have been very critical of the clubs kicking skills ever since i started posting on Demonland, and long argued that we should be targeting more players with elite kicking skills. And, for that reason was critical of the decision to take Salem not Josh Kelly, and equally critical of the decision to trade Watts. 

I think my criticism on the kicking skills front has borne out. In my opinion, injuries was the number one factor in us going out in straight sets last year, but clear number two was too few elite kicks.

But i'm not banging on about being proved right or pointing out ad nauseum how much better we would be if we had Josh Kelly kicking inside 50. 

And i am long time critic of the clubs' external communications, which i think is a big factor in our poor relationship with the media and certainly in how various crisis events have been perceived externally.  But again, i don't run the club down and bang on about it at every opportunity.  

Predicting failure is easy. Anyone doing so will be proven right way more often than those predicting success. But a back and forth between those two poles is exhausting. 

And to be clear, I'm as guilty of anyone as getting involved in those back and forth discussions that lead nowhere and clog up thread after thread.  

I'm down for nuanced discussion about strengths, weakness, opportunities and threats.

But like reducing my consumption of footy media, i'm tapping out from binary, black and white discussions on Demonland this season. 

Edited February 26, 20241 yr by binman

  On 23/02/2024 at 03:01, Roost it far said:

Firstly stop spouting how good the culture is in public forums because it’s not. Secondly have the President and CEO acknowledge that things have gone wrong at the club and they’re working on making sure these things get sorted.  Basically what any good organisation would do right now is open the doors and let the breeze blow through. I’m not asking anyone get sacked, I’m a big believer in apologies and second chances. The fact your supporters forum can’t discuss this stuff should be enough for the club to publicly state what exactly is going on and what is being done to rectify/resolve it. The silence is deafening.

How do you know anything about the internal culture?

surely you’ve learnt in the last however many years that just cause the media say it doesn’t make it so.

you may have also learnt that the afl media is more toxic than the normal media. They love a pile on and bully clubs/coaches/players cause they can and cause it generates views. Views come before everything, even truth.

collingwood are proof that this idea of culture that we throw around from the outside means absolutely nothing. They won a flag with a horrific culture in recent times. 
 

why on earth would the club open the doors and let everyone see creating endless possibilities for more nonsense headlines? That would be the dumbest possible move. It may not suit what you want, which is more access, but you don’t deserve nor are you entitled to any more access. 

  On 25/02/2024 at 09:35, Dr. Gonzo said:

There has absolutely been that narrative about Geelong, especially after so many Prelim failures. Scott was on his last legs in 2021.

Pies, Blues and Tigers fans are feral, they also don't accept failure. Making excuses for this playing/coaching group isn't going to help. There should be accountability. Now that doesn't mean flag or failure, but straight sets two years running and a stale gameplan with cultural issues means supporters are within their rights to ask questions.

Agreed. Binman just loves writing essays justifying his beliefs. 
These boys can win more Flags

With the right single minded attitude 

  On 26/02/2024 at 06:21, von said:

How do you know anything about the internal culture?

surely you’ve learnt in the last however many years that just cause the media say it doesn’t make it so.

you may have also learnt that the afl media is more toxic than the normal media. They love a pile on and bully clubs/coaches/players cause they can and cause it generates views. Views come before everything, even truth.

 

Good points.

And i'd add that it is elite level hypocrisy for the AFL media boys club to knock the culture of any club or organisation. A bigger bunch of misogynist, dipsomaniac, reprobates you couldn't find.

Exhibit A: Morris being welcomed back into the boys club on SEN and now as head of channel nine's football team. 

Edited February 26, 20241 yr by binman

The AFL media is a joke. It's all about being first, as opposed to right, and narratives. Every game the commentators barrack to the point of being nauseating.

  On 26/02/2024 at 06:21, von said:

How do you know anything about the internal culture?

surely you’ve learnt in the last however many years that just cause the media say it doesn’t make it so.

you may have also learnt that the afl media is more toxic than the normal media. They love a pile on and bully clubs/coaches/players cause they can and cause it generates views. Views come before everything, even truth.

collingwood are proof that this idea of culture that we throw around from the outside means absolutely nothing. They won a flag with a horrific culture in recent times. 
 

why on earth would the club open the doors and let everyone see creating endless possibilities for more nonsense headlines? That would be the dumbest possible move. It may not suit what you want, which is more access, but you don’t deserve nor are you entitled to any more access. 

As a member I’m owed more access than i get. They can’t even provide me with correct training times most of the time. The President, Coach and certain members of the board all have clouds over their heads. It ain’t ideal.

  On 26/02/2024 at 03:32, binman said:

What i find bit frustrating on Demomnland is how often discussion becomes binary and devolves into camps. There is a lack of nuance. 

It's the nature of social media, "the medium is the message" etc. The medium determines the level of discourse and social media is designed to encourage binary arguments.

You have made a number of points, most of which I agree with. You're 100% correct, the "shadow" side for lack of a better term of that feralness exhibited by Pies, Blues, Tigers is their instinct to act rashly or act on emotion - I was hoping like all hell the Blues did the dumb thing and sacked Voss halfway through last year but they did the mature thing and stayed the course and the decision was proved correct. I'm not asking for Goodwin to be sacked or the board to be overthrown but I do think it is healthy for the club to know supporters aren't happy with the straight sets exit two years running. First year, fine you can cop that coming off a flag and with the way we limped into finals but last year seems a really lost opportunity especially with the way we came out in the Qualifying Final (before the Maynard/Gus incident).

I think our gameplan is stale, it is too conservative and works well against poorer opposition but against the top teams you have to be a bit more daring. We played far more free flowing footy at times in 2021 especially in the last 6 or so weeks which we haven't really seen since then. Teams have "worked us out" to an extent which doesn't mean our gameplan has crumbled but rather teams know now what to do to make life difficult for us and because we are quite stubborn in the way we play they know we are unlikely to shake things up, we are more likely to persevere and expect things to turn around which makes us easier to play against defensively and easier to frustrate us.

There is certainly an element of luck in the injuries we copped to our forwards last year but overall the team just doesn't seem as sure of itself as it did in 2021 which for supporters is frustrating because after finally getting the monkey off the back and with such a young core of talented players we hoped that they would dominate the comp for 4 or 5 years. We are now into year 3 after the flag and the team hasn't really enjoyed the success that we think they are capable of - yes they have won plenty of games, yes they have sat in the top 4 for all but one or two weeks in that time but the way that they have played, sometimes only scraping past inferior opposition rather than putting them to the sword has been frustrating to watch as a supporter considering the talent in the team.

I don't buy the commentary of some here that our list is overrated. Comparatively I still think we have one of the best most even lists in the comp. But while teams like Collingwood always seem to have a knack of playing "above themselves" (I know many hate this but you know what I mean) we seem to be the opposite where we don't seem to get the best out of our talent.

I'm interested to see how this year plays out, my expectations are not high to be honest but I could see us finishing anywhere from top 2 to bottom 6. And I think you can make arguments either way. I still think it will be a shame not to get at least one more flag out of this group and for the supporters to witness a flag at the G because I think they certainly have had the talent/capacity to win the flag each of the last two years. Not winning the flag in those years doesn't make it a failure but not even making the Prelims does in my opinion.

Edited February 26, 20241 yr by Dr. Gonzo

  On 26/02/2024 at 09:30, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's the nature of social media, "the medium is the message" etc. The medium determines the level of discourse and social media is designed to encourage binary arguments.

You have made a number of points, most of which I agree with. You're 100% correct, the "shadow" side for lack of a better term of that feralness exhibited by Pies, Blues, Tigers is their instinct to act rashly or act on emotion - I was hoping like all hell the Blues did the dumb thing and sacked Voss halfway through last year but they did the mature thing and stayed the course and the decision was proved correct. I'm not asking for Goodwin to be sacked or the board to be overthrown but I do think it is healthy for the club to know supporters aren't happy with the straight sets exit two years running. First year, fine you can cop that coming off a flag and with the way we limped into finals but last year seems a really lost opportunity especially with the way we came out in the Qualifying Final (before the Maynard/Gus incident).

I think our gameplan is stale, it is too conservative and works well against poorer opposition but against the top teams you have to be a bit more daring. We played far more free flowing footy at times in 2021 especially in the last 6 or so weeks which we haven't really seen since then. Teams have "worked us out" to an extent which doesn't mean our gameplan has crumbled but rather teams know now what to do to make life difficult for us and because we are quite stubborn in the way we play they know we are unlikely to shake things up, we are more likely to persevere and expect things to turn around which makes us easier to play against defensively and easier to frustrate us.

There is certainly an element of luck in the injuries we copped to our forwards last year but overall the team just doesn't seem as sure of itself as it did in 2021 which for supporters is frustrating because after finally getting the monkey off the back and with such a young core of talented players we hoped that they would dominate the comp for 4 or 5 years. We are now into year 3 after the flag and the team hasn't really enjoyed the success that we think they are capable of - yes they have won plenty of games, yes they have sat in the top 4 for all but one or two weeks in that time but the way that they have played, sometimes only scraping past inferior opposition rather than putting them to the sword has been frustrating to watch as a supporter considering the talent in the team.

I don't buy the commentary of some here that our list is overrated. Comparatively I still think we have one of the best most even lists in the comp. But while teams like Collingwood always seem to have a knack of playing "above themselves" (I know many hate this but you know what I mean) we seem to be the opposite where we don't seem to get the best out of our talent.

I'm interested to see how this year plays out, my expectations are not high to be honest but I could see us finishing anywhere from top 2 to bottom 6. And I think you can make arguments either way. I still think it will be a shame not to get at least one more flag out of this group and for the supporters to witness a flag at the G because I think they certainly have had the talent/capacity to win the flag each of the last two years. Not winning the flag in those years doesn't make it a failure but not even making the Prelims does in my opinion.

I can’t be bothered reading that, any key insights?

  On 26/02/2024 at 10:07, Roost it far said:

I can’t be bothered reading that, any key insights?

I’m sure he can’t be bothered giving you any.

  On 24/02/2024 at 04:02, marieisademon said:

And you know what they say about assumption, 

Assumption used to produce top players on a regular basis. 

https://www.draftguru.com.au/from/assumption_college

  On 26/02/2024 at 09:30, Dr. Gonzo said:

It's the nature of social media, "the medium is the message" etc. The medium determines the level of discourse and social media is designed to encourage binary arguments.

You have made a number of points, most of which I agree with. You're 100% correct, the "shadow" side for lack of a better term of that feralness exhibited by Pies, Blues, Tigers is their instinct to act rashly or act on emotion - I was hoping like all hell the Blues did the dumb thing and sacked Voss halfway through last year but they did the mature thing and stayed the course and the decision was proved correct. I'm not asking for Goodwin to be sacked or the board to be overthrown but I do think it is healthy for the club to know supporters aren't happy with the straight sets exit two years running. First year, fine you can cop that coming off a flag and with the way we limped into finals but last year seems a really lost opportunity especially with the way we came out in the Qualifying Final (before the Maynard/Gus incident).

I think our gameplan is stale, it is too conservative and works well against poorer opposition but against the top teams you have to be a bit more daring. We played far more free flowing footy at times in 2021 especially in the last 6 or so weeks which we haven't really seen since then. Teams have "worked us out" to an extent which doesn't mean our gameplan has crumbled but rather teams know now what to do to make life difficult for us and because we are quite stubborn in the way we play they know we are unlikely to shake things up, we are more likely to persevere and expect things to turn around which makes us easier to play against defensively and easier to frustrate us.

There is certainly an element of luck in the injuries we copped to our forwards last year but overall the team just doesn't seem as sure of itself as it did in 2021 which for supporters is frustrating because after finally getting the monkey off the back and with such a young core of talented players we hoped that they would dominate the comp for 4 or 5 years. We are now into year 3 after the flag and the team hasn't really enjoyed the success that we think they are capable of - yes they have won plenty of games, yes they have sat in the top 4 for all but one or two weeks in that time but the way that they have played, sometimes only scraping past inferior opposition rather than putting them to the sword has been frustrating to watch as a supporter considering the talent in the team.

I don't buy the commentary of some here that our list is overrated. Comparatively I still think we have one of the best most even lists in the comp. But while teams like Collingwood always seem to have a knack of playing "above themselves" (I know many hate this but you know what I mean) we seem to be the opposite where we don't seem to get the best out of our talent.

I'm interested to see how this year plays out, my expectations are not high to be honest but I could see us finishing anywhere from top 2 to bottom 6. And I think you can make arguments either way. I still think it will be a shame not to get at least one more flag out of this group and for the supporters to witness a flag at the G because I think they certainly have had the talent/capacity to win the flag each of the last two years. Not winning the flag in those years doesn't make it a failure but not even making the Prelims does in my opinion.

Lots I agree with.

The main one is that it will absolutely be a shame if we don't get another flag out of this group. 

I think we have another 3-4 seasons in the premiership window, in large because of how balanced our list age wise.

Of course that depends on tracc, Max, clarry, viney, lever and May not dropping away too much. But barring injury the only player that worries me is maysie.

Players are so fiit and well managed these days that most stars are still at the top of their game well into their 30s.

And it depends on koz, Sparrow, Bowser, jvr, mcvee and a couple of others improving. But again that's not an unreasonable expectation.

And we will have some serious coin to back fill with quality free agents  at the end of this season. 

Agree, not making a prelim this year was a fail. And I'm sure that's how they assess it internally.

And as I have noted in another thread, we tightened badly in the last 5 or 6 mins of the blues game. Even with our inaccuracy, we should have won that game. 

The pies game is a different matter - we deserve massive kudos for being in a position to win that game given we basically only played 3 quarters.

Huge psychological effort to get up after quarter time given what happened to Gus.

  On 26/02/2024 at 07:33, Roost it far said:

As a member I’m owed more access than i get. They can’t even provide me with correct training times most of the time. The President, Coach and certain members of the board all have clouds over their heads. It ain’t ideal.

Fair enough with the training times. I don’t think we deserve anything beyond the basics though. It’s a cut throat competition with a nasty media arm. Staying quiet is my preference 

what a load of rubbish - what about Sheedy's 2000: 24 from 25 and then?