On 04/10/2022 at 02:13, jnrmac said:

Harmes' Finishes in the Bluey

• 16th in 2022
• 19th in 2021
• not in top 20 2020
• 4th in 2019
• 3rd in 2018
• 17th in 2017
• 19th in 2016

Interesting to see how the club rates him and certainly the last 3 years he has underwhelmed (for whatever reason)

When we look to the club to improve the list they have to make decisions around players like this. As much as most of us like Harmes he has points of frustration with his game. His best is clearly very good. But too often we see average performances.

No we don't know what roles the coaches have him playing but the finishes in the Bluey are pretty telling for mine.

And when all is said and done I follow the club first and the players second,

We want success and so log as Harmes has been dealt with fairly and with respect then they must do what they have to do to improve the side.

 

I agree with most of this.  But one thing that often gets forgotten is the time on ground.  This year Harmes is averaging 79min per match (less than 3 quarters of the match). For comparison Sparrow (82), Jordon (92), Viney (96), ANB (96), Brayshaw (100), Oliver (104), Trac (106) and Langdon (120).

If we could go back and check I suspect his minutes in 2018 and 2019 would have been much higher.

In terms of Centre bounce attendance percentage he averaged 16%  for the year behind Oliver (86%), Viney (75%), Trac (75%), Dunstan (57%), Sparrow (32%) and was equal with Brayshaw.  But this is potentially misleading as from rounds 15-18 he averaged around 45% but after that Brayshaw replaced him and he barely got back in there from round 19 onwards.

As you say he's down the pecking order in terms of our preferred centre bounce players.  Eg when Viney was out, they brought in Dunstan rather than giving Harmes a bigger role.

He was tried at half back a few years back but doesn't have the skills / decision making to pull it off.  He can kick a goal better than most mids and is a good contested mark for his size - but in our team it means he's forced to play the role of HFF with occasional wing and midfield rotation which is clearly not what he's most suited to.

I love Harmes as a person (from the little I know) and as a player - but someone with his ability would be playing more than 80mins game time in most other teams - so don't blame him at all for testing the waters at essendon (but equally happy for him to stay).

 

He’s staying. 🙂

  On 04/10/2022 at 03:53, deelusions from afar said:

I agree with most of this.  But one thing that often gets forgotten is the time on ground.  This year Harmes is averaging 79min per match (less than 3 quarters of the match). For comparison Sparrow (82), Jordon (92), Viney (96), ANB (96), Brayshaw (100), Oliver (104), Trac (106) and Langdon (120).

If we could go back and check I suspect his minutes in 2018 and 2019 would have been much higher.

In terms of Centre bounce attendance percentage he averaged 16%  for the year behind Oliver (86%), Viney (75%), Trac (75%), Dunstan (57%), Sparrow (32%) and was equal with Brayshaw.  But this is potentially misleading as from rounds 15-18 he averaged around 45% but after that Brayshaw replaced him and he barely got back in there from round 19 onwards.

As you say he's down the pecking order in terms of our preferred centre bounce players.  Eg when Viney was out, they brought in Dunstan rather than giving Harmes a bigger role.

He was tried at half back a few years back but doesn't have the skills / decision making to pull it off.  He can kick a goal better than most mids and is a good contested mark for his size - but in our team it means he's forced to play the role of HFF with occasional wing and midfield rotation which is clearly not what he's most suited to.

I love Harmes as a person (from the little I know) and as a player - but someone with his ability would be playing more than 80mins game time in most other teams - so don't blame him at all for testing the waters at essendon (but equally happy for him to stay).

 

Time on ground is very important and this years results is a good example as you point out. . But over a 5 year window he had 2 good years.

The Bluey is an interesting indicator because the coaches know what the player is tasked with, what they are capable of and how they have performed against that benchmark. Its the closest proxy we have.

And while we fall in love with 'our' players, the reality is that they come and go.  The players themselves have a greater bond with each other than the club generally. They sweat blood together

The club has a greater duty to protect the overall team and evolve it into a better unit. Its why we let players go like Watts and Sylvia.

So I get the discussion around Harmes. Not saying its right or wrong but they would be derelict in their duty not to look at the 'fringe' players

It all seems moot now as he is staying but I imagine every year they divide the list into 'untouchables', 'maybes', 'definitely get rid of' based on a range of variables.

 

 

  On 04/10/2022 at 02:00, WalkingCivilWar said:

Heart n soul ❤️💙

 

  On 04/10/2022 at 02:03, Jaded No More said:

Yet was willing to leave for more midfield minutes.

 

  On 04/10/2022 at 03:25, Jaded No More said:

I never ever implied that he is not a heart and soul player because he is looking for more midfield minutes.

Surely you can see why I came to be of the belief that that’s exactly what you were implying. I was going off that single sentence of yours. Nothing more, nothing less. 
 

The word “yet” factored into my reasoning. 

Edited October 4, 20222 yr by WalkingCivilWar

  On 04/10/2022 at 02:15, WalkingCivilWar said:

 And because you KNOW Demonland is not by any stretch ignored by the Club in terms of reading content.

Some poor basterd (deliberate) from the club has to read DL? There is the reason why we didn't go B2B....

  On 04/10/2022 at 05:48, DEE fence said:

Some poor basterd (deliberate) from the club has to read DL? There is the reason why we didn't go B2B....

Yeah imagine having that job!

Bit anticlimactic in the end really

  On 04/10/2022 at 03:51, Demonland said:

 

 

The whole thing is weird. What would it matter if Scott and Harmes spoke today vs the weekend?

  On 04/10/2022 at 05:48, DEE fence said:

Some poor basterd (deliberate) from the club has to read DL? There is the reason why we didn't go B2B....

 

  On 04/10/2022 at 05:53, layzie said:

Yeah imagine having that job!

  On 04/10/2022 at 06:00, MoeSyzlak said:

The whole thing is weird. What would it matter if Scott and Harmes spoke today vs the weekend?

How would you feel about going to a club where the senior coach wouldn’t make time for you?

Richardson: G’day Harmesy, how’d the meeting go with Essendon go?

Harmes: Scott couldn’t meet. Obviously they don’t want me that much. Let’s just forget the whole thing, it was worth a shot but I love the club and I’m happy to stay. See ya when training starts. 

  On 04/10/2022 at 06:19, Nasher said:

How would you feel about going to a club where the senior coach wouldn’t make time for you?

I think he was away, it wasn't a making time thing.

Might have heard that wrong though.

  On 04/10/2022 at 00:06, Dee Zephyr said:

I like hearing that.

Bluddoath!

  On 04/10/2022 at 06:31, Lord Nev said:

I think he was away, it wasn't a making time thing.

Might have heard that wrong though.

Nevertheless I wouldn’t take a job without the opportunity to meet the boss first. Especially if I was pretty lukewarm about the idea to begin with, which I’m guessing Harmes was (and it is just a guess).

  On 04/10/2022 at 06:39, Nasher said:

Nevertheless I wouldn’t take a job without the opportunity to meet the boss first. Especially if I was pretty lukewarm about the idea to begin with, which I’m guessing Harmes was (and it is just a guess).

Absolutely.

To be fair though, probably works in Essendon's favour if potential recruits don't meet Brad Scott...

  On 04/10/2022 at 06:00, MoeSyzlak said:

The whole thing is weird. What would it matter if Scott and Harmes spoke today vs the weekend?

Don’t be surprised if it still goes ahead.

Remember some years ago Melbourne and Freo reported that the Hogan deal was dead and buried only to be suddenly reincarnated some days later…  

Edited October 4, 20222 yr by Glorious Day

  On 04/10/2022 at 06:39, Nasher said:

Nevertheless I wouldn’t take a job without the opportunity to meet the boss. Especially if I was pretty lukewarm about the idea to begin with, which I’m guessing Harmes was (and it is just a guess).

Brad Scott has come out and said that the club intended on going through the draft rather than trading in experienced players. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the meeting with Harmes was teed up by Mahoney and Dodo, but Brad Scott has overruled them.

  On 04/10/2022 at 06:44, mo64 said:

Brad Scott has come out and said that the club intended on going through the draft rather than trading in experienced players. 

I wouldn't be surprised if the meeting with Harmes was teed up by Mahoney and Dodo, but Brad Scott has overruled them.

Indeed, the new coach could very well have changed the course mid-journey. It does actually fit with what it sounds like Scott wants to do.

  On 04/10/2022 at 00:06, Dee Zephyr said:

I like hearing that.

The two if them, Harmes and Hunt, forming the Heckle and Jekyll of the Dees' mobility machine, such a duo of talent seldom (if ever) brought together as tandem operatives across half-back to fwd-50. They have actually complemented one another onfield in bursts of teamplay, usually with Hunt beginning a 'run' and finding Harmes who could finish it off very handsomely with his many talents. I'd often think - watching this duo - at games that this is a combination for coaches to take advantage of the synergy and effectiveness of what they only occasionally had an opportunity to do - contributing to a flow of attacking footy and passing off when necessary to other teammates so that momentum and intent were not lost. Such may be the by-product of the long bomb?

Sadly, to my mind, this synergy was not recognised and hence, was neglected, ignored, not seen, regarded as 'happenstance' and not part of years of ineffective onfield instructions/controls when such methodologies were so desperately needed. 

Well, the combo is broken. Let's hope we can retain Harmes, at least - he is so uniquely versatile - perhaps he can establish a linking role with one or two of the puppies who are about to be exposed to the big time more frequently in 2023.

 

 

  On 04/10/2022 at 04:50, jnrmac said:

Time on ground is very important and this years results is a good example as you point out. . But over a 5 year window he had 2 good years.

The Bluey is an interesting indicator because the coaches know what the player is tasked with, what they are capable of and how they have performed against that benchmark. Its the closest proxy we have.

And while we fall in love with 'our' players, the reality is that they come and go.  The players themselves have a greater bond with each other than the club generally. They sweat blood together

The club has a greater duty to protect the overall team and evolve it into a better unit. Its why we let players go like Watts and Sylvia.

So I get the discussion around Harmes. Not saying its right or wrong but they would be derelict in their duty not to look at the 'fringe' players

It all seems moot now as he is staying but I imagine every year they divide the list into 'untouchables', 'maybes', 'definitely get rid of' based on a range of variables.

 

 

Yeah I guess I was more pointing out that if as an experienced senior player he is averaging the least minutes in the team it shows the coaching staff have essentially stamped his papers as a fringe / depth player.  A player in Harmes' position (like Sparrow, Bedford and Chandler when they've played) would have to do something pretty exceptional to get coaches votes as their role is mostly about keeping the pressure up to allow our stars to thrive.  But you could argue the others are younger players that the coaches would expect to give more game time as their experience grows.

Ultimately you can't have too many players filling positions they're not designed for eg midfielders playing on flanks and wings.  As much as I love Harmes, if him leaving allows a specialist half forward / wingman to take his spot, then overall the team would be better off.  The fact that we were playing Spargo and Harmes on a wing at times this year shows we really need another specialist in that role.

But as you say it all looks to be moot as he is staying.

  On 04/10/2022 at 06:59, Deemania since 56 said:

The two if them, Harmes and Hunt, forming the Heckle and Jekyll of the Dees' mobility machine, such a duo of talent seldom (if ever) brought together as tandem operatives across half-back to fwd-50. They have actually complemented one another onfield in bursts of teamplay, usually with Hunt beginning a 'run' and finding Harmes who could finish it off very handsomely with his many talents. I'd often think - watching this duo - at games that this is a combination for coaches to take advantage of the synergy and effectiveness of what they only occasionally had an opportunity to do - contributing to a flow of attacking footy and passing off when necessary to other teammates so that momentum and intent were not lost. Such may be the by-product of the long bomb?

Sadly, to my mind, this synergy was not recognised and hence, was neglected, ignored, not seen, regarded as 'happenstance' and not part of years of ineffective onfield instructions/controls when such methodologies were so desperately needed. 

Well, the combo is broken. Let's hope we can retain Harmes, at least - he is so uniquely versatile - perhaps he can establish a linking role with one or two of the puppies who are about to be exposed to the big time more frequently in 2023.

 

 

Exceptional prose, and readily paired with my own various imaginings and - dare I say - confabulations?

Edited October 4, 20222 yr by bush demon
Sp.

  On 04/10/2022 at 06:31, Lord Nev said:

I think he was away, it wasn't a making time thing.

Might have heard that wrong though.

Yep, he was on retreat.

Given today's shenanigans at Essendon, he dodged a bullet.

What's that they say about behind every successful team is a united board, admin and football dept.

  On 04/10/2022 at 08:57, bing181 said:

Given today's shenanigans at Essendon, he dodged a bullet.

What's that they say about behind every successful team is a united board, admin and football dept.

I believe the saying goes that behind every successful man is a surprised woman.

Heard from an extremely good sauce that Harmes thought the role change Essendon had in mind for him was more inside mid minutes, but it turned out to be CEO

It took Sparrow a few years to get to his current hard body midfielder role, so any new young player will take a long time to do the role of Harmes.   Dunstan might play a similar role but doesn't have an overhead marking ability, nor to kick the odd multiple goal game.  Jordan is not the physical type.   Maybe if howes can put on a few KGs in pre season he could fill the role.    We could do with a 190cm midfielder.   Will be really sorry to see him go, but can understand he wants more midfield time.