It's the Culture

[BoBo 2,941]

What’s the reason for our drop off of pressure? 
 

Our pressure was one of the highest things about our game last year, so how could we have allowed to to drop away so badly. 
 

We went from 3rd in 2021 to last this year I think. Is it a loss of will to run from players as they just expected to win? Are they less fit?

Do these factors came down to a cultural thing?

I genuinely don’t have answers myself.

Edited September 11, 2022 by BoBo

[fr_ap 2,529]

10 minutes ago, mo64 said:

Craig McCrae took over the club that was considered a "cultural cesspit". And right off the bat, his star player DeGoey reinforces that opinion.

Fast forward, and a team most expected to finish bottom 4 are now in a Prelim.

If you think that "culture" is so important, then it clearly hasn't been a challenge for McCrae. Or maybe his players are just playing a better brand of football and have self belief.

 

 

Excellent example, thanks for making my point. I presume you haven't watched them that closely or listened to any pies media.

His players have spoken about the cultural shift. He's emboldened his young players to take risk, he has backed them in publicly, privately and at selection, and gotten the team to believe in each other unerringly. They're a very unified team and it's clear to see in the way they play. They're also highly respectful of their opposition.

As for De Goey - he's a young foolish bloke who lets his temptations get the better of him. McCrae is not responsible for that, and it happened before McCrae arrived. What McCrae has done is taken him out of the spotlight and clearly enabled him to start delivering on field. Dusty was in a similiar conundrum and openly credits cultural change, coaching staff and the resilience project for his turnaround. 

The fact Collingwood can go from 17th to a prelim makes this point. Clearly their footy ability was always there. What they've changed is gamestyle, coaching and culture. It's not just coaching. There is no silver bullet. 

Ive said a number of times that culture is not the only ingredient - just a part of the equation, and the part we let slip this year. 

[rpfc 28,753]

Were some players complacent with their preparation? Did they do the extra sessions they did the year before? Were we too comfortable with performances of certain players? 

I think this kind of thing eats away at any ‘culture’ that has been to the summit.

I don’t think it’s the reason but I think a certain level of comfort and complacency being a factor is hard to argue with really.

Shame is a great driver though looking for a response.

[layzie 33,990]

I'd say it's the gameplan before saying it's the culture.

[Dee Viney Intervention 1,959]

1 hour ago, Mr Steve said:

Yawn-- They were hunted and simply not good enough this year. The players who were given a chance from Casey did not take them.  Brown Bedford Chandler Dunstan Weideman all got a go after staring at Casey. 

With all due respect I would hardly say Dunstan or Chandler got a go. Chandler was consistently only named as a sub and on the rare time that we actually used our sub in 2022 he was unfortunately suspended for a run down tackle and never got another look in despite strong performances at Casey. Heaven forbid we pick a small forward that is prepared to chase and tackle, when your team is 17th in the competition for pressure acts.

[Demon Jim 149]

1 hour ago, fr_ap said:

Since our ejection on Friday night I've been reflecting on our season and where it might have gone wrong. Or in particular, why this year never quite felt right. 

All teams have question marks on whether they have what it takes to get to the top. Supporters and the media focus largely on whether the playing group is talented enough, whether the coaching/gameplan can succeed and whether the off field administration is enabling success. These are no doubt important. 

For us though, none of these 3 elements have changed materially from last year. We know the team is good enough, we know the coaching group was good enough (notwithstanding tactics need to change) and we are stable off field. 

What has changed and I think why I felt 'uncomfortable' with a lot of the seasons successes - is the culture. This is what stitched it all together last year and in this sport in particular, with the largest ground and freeform positioning, is a crucial element to executing a defensive-minded gameplan. 

Bit by bit, week by week, I think our leaders (players and coaches) have let it slip, with a trail of markers going back to the end of last year:

- Gawn declaring at our premiership celebration that we'd salute in 2022 - I'm sure this was designed to be bold, but it imbued from the start a disrespect to our opposition and to some degree, embedded some underlying complacency

- the Carlton pre season game, conceding 8 50m penalties and clearly lacking some discipline and respect for our opponents and the umpires

- consistent selection of players who were underdone, out of form or blatantly injured, reducing accountability, reducing trust in the FD to be impartial, and denying our youth and second stringers of chances to grow. Not very selfless or trusting from our FD decision makers. 

- May/Melksham incident, notable not for it's drunkenness or timing but for what was said by May to Melksham, implying a clique of 'premiership heroes' to the exclusion of all others, and again a sense of entitlement stemming from achieving success last year

- coaching refusal to change structure or gameplan in the face of pretty compelling evidence that it was being dismantled

- clear on field selfishness in front of goals - Fritsch the poster boy but it arguably most damaging from players like Trac who repeatedly attempts to kick goals with 3 oppo players on top of him rather than using his gifts to release someone to space as he did more often last year

- clear drop off in accountability to team defense standards in guarding space appropriately or sitting at the defensive side of a contest. The selflessness that was such a hallmark is now difficult to see in this regard.

- clear drop off in willingness to work hard at the little things off the ball - they spoke about being the best teammates they could be last year. Being 3rd last in pressure implies they weren't very good teammates to each other this year at all.

- Continued poor discipline in both our finals, conceding 50m penalties to Sydney at crucial times and again against Brisbane, with the leadership group repeatedly at fault and a litany of downfield free kicks as we repeatedly dumped players after kicking

-players openly arguing, pointing and expressing frustration with each other on field, including the leaders

-Langdons poorly worded 'duck dinner' comment - I'm sure not wholly intended to be disrespectful but again a marker of an underlying arrogance in the teams evaluation of its opponents

-Consistently going ahead early in all our losses - indicating again our pure footy ability was clearly good enough - only to be overrun. I think fitness wasn't the issue. I think it was the teams mindset to run for each other, trust their teammate to win a contest and a collective belief in the system and team defense. 

-Gawn spoke about last year how their cultural change started with the removal of the 'little quips' around the club - not bringing each other down for fun. I'm sure I'm not alone in noticing that from about a 1/3 of the way through the year, the Gus and Gawny episodes took a bit of a turn...the quips of teammates returned in subtle doses in exchange for a laugh. By the last few episodes of the year I no longer enjoyed the show - arrogant, backslapping banter often at the expense of their guest or the team's lesser lights. 

- Gawn has a guest spot on Nova's breakfast show once a week. The hosts questioned Max a number of times about our form during the 2nd half of the year. It's a breakfast show and I don't expect it to be serious, but near the end of the year Max kept referring to our ladder position as his defense. "Well, we're still second so we must be doing something right". There was a clear denial of the trends within our game (at least to the extent he would admit it externally), again implying a level of disrespect for the opposition. Jonathan Brown more than once accused Max of living in the past. Brown is hardly a beacon of morality or good judgement, but I think he was on the mark. 

 

I'll stop here to avoid making this any longer - I'm sure others can add their own observations to this list. 

I've no doubt some of you will say I'm being pedantic, particularly on the final two points on how Gawn has presented in the media - but I just can't shake the sense that the selflessness, humility, and team unity that we had in 2021 has been pretty significantly eroded.

I think this is encapsulated by our two finals games. We were deers in headlights when both Sydney and Brisbane cranked up the pressure. We clearly weren't running for each other. Uninspired and selfish can look a lot like being gassed. 

It was pretty alarming to see this team, our amazing, contested, tough, 'built for finals' team start playing hot potato and putting teammates under pressure with errant or 30cm hospital handballs. I think this reflected that the playing group to some degree lost the trust & faith they once had in one another. 

If I am unfortunately right, it won't be an easy fix from here.

Culture is the hardest and last thing to get right, and it's the easiest and first thing you get wrong. 

Looking forward to the offseason moves and all of that - but my eye will be watching for the return of some of the cultural markers we had in 2021. Or at least, the non recurrence of the markers of 2022. 

I think this a great post and I think you make a lot of good points. I hope they go back to Settler's Run and have the same conversation they had two years ago and remember what made them so successful on 2021. Also, I believe you need a 10% adjustment in game plan and personnel each season to keep things fresh or risk staying the same while others move past you. Would love to see at least 4 changes to our starting line up in 2023 as well a new assistant coach from outside the club. No need for a major overhaul - just a reset on things that made us successful along with a few fresh, enthusiastic faces.  

[NeveroddoreveN 1,034]

1 minute ago, Lord Nev said:

No, I don't like this explanation because it's a cop out to blame one factor, and "culture" is so often that one factor supporters go to.

Talent only takes you so far.

Melbourne won a Premiership last year after an honesty session on Staffords farm.

Players asking why we were basically so carp.

Some home truths obviously emerged.  Our better players had to be more damaging. Our lesser players had to put in far more effort.  Collectively they knew our list was good enough, but there was something missing.

Was it attitude, was it honesty, was it not wanting to waste an opportunity with a very good list?

This whole culture thing comes massively into play for successful sporting organisations across the globe.

The terms "respect" and "great people that care" is often thrown around these successful mobs.

Perhaps is too soon for Melbourne supporters to reflect openly about where we went wrong.   Seems to be lot of angry people wanting blood, not excuses, nor intangibles about culture!

We have never had a good culture, not in my lifetime anyway, and i am close enough to 50 now. To think that it is a non factor in terms of long or even short term success is borderline madness.

Teams like Geelong & Syney and now Richmond is hellbent on building this intangible thing called culture.   It means players down to boot studders want to be at the place quite simply.  They feel valued and respected.  I really can't see that we are much different, we are also trying to build up this culture thing.

Remember a French mate telling me Aussies had less culture than a spoonful of yoghurt, was funny at the time.

Culture is basically having standards across the entire operation, it actually is not that intangible to accept that it even exists, even if you believe it has zero validity!

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

@fr_aptop post and really insightful. Agree with it entirely. 

Most supporters want simple answers to sport and generally lack the insight/don't delve into the deeper layers that contribute to the success or failures of a team's fortune.

Max the leader needs more refinement as do a number of our players. I agree entirely with what you said regarding the podcast too. 

I think we're lucky in many ways to have Max as a captain because he is both insightful and emotionally intelligent but sometimes he talks first and listens later. Which is part of why he needs refinement as a person and captain. He possesses the tools to be able to help create a culture that becomes impenetrable, but sometimes I think the default comedic/muck-about side of him gets in the way. It's the old double-edged sword. 

My brother and I talk about these things all the time regarding MFC and other clubs across the competition. More philisophical than anything else. 

There were obviously a number of contributing factors that led to our disconnect this year. But the fractures to our culture/'Melbourne player' theme that you pointed out across the entire season have definitely played a big part. 

One thing that I'll add to this 'culture' talk is that we the supporters play a big part in it too. The veil of negativity that Roos spoke about and the fact that we've been starved of success for so long has had some say on why so many of us pick and choose games to go to. And I loved when Roosy brought that at the time.

I still feel that at our games. Our supporters seem much quieter and tense almost. Even if we have the same number of supporters there. There's trepidation amongst us and I've always thought that our players feed off that. Just as Collingwood, Carlton and Richmond supporters would feed off the raucous nature of their supporters and sheer numbers of them. 

It will take a long time to change the supporter issue however.. A lot of success and some generational young recruits who will bring new supporters to the club. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by JimmyGadson

[fr_ap 2,529]

4 minutes ago, NeveroddoreveN said:

Talent only takes you so far.

Melbourne won a Premiership last year after an honesty session on Staffords farm.

Players asking why we were basically so carp.

Some home truths obviously emerged.  Our better players had to be more damaging. Our lesser players had to put in far more effort.  Collectively they knew our list was good enough, but there was something missing.

Was it attitude, was it honesty, was it not wanting to waste an opportunity with a very good list?

This whole culture thing comes massively into play for successful sporting organisations across the globe.

The terms "respect" and "great people that care" is often thrown around these successful mobs.

Perhaps is too soon for Melbourne supporters to reflect openly about where we went wrong.   Seems to be lot of angry people wanting blood, not excuses, nor intangibles about culture!

We have never had a good culture, not in my lifetime anyway, and i am close enough to 50 now. To think that it is a non factor in terms of long or even short term success is borderline madness.

Teams like Geelong & Syney and now Richmond is hellbent on building this intangible thing called culture.   It means players down to boot studders want to be at the place quite simply.  They feel valued and respected.  I really can't see that we are much different, we are also trying to build up this culture thing.

Remember a French mate telling me Aussies had less culture than a spoonful of yoghurt, was funny at the time.

Culture is basically having standards across the entire operation, it actually is not that intangible to accept that it even exists, even if you believe it has zero validity!

Fantastic post. 

To the naysayers - why don't you believe it even when it's come from the horses mouth?

The players spoke about the selfless culture last year. Goodwin spoke about it. Gawns book describes it in detail. 

When we utterly destroyed Geelong and WB - Goodwin's post game address to the players said "that's your culture coming out, right to the end". 

It's not crazy, nor lazy, to suggest it slipped this year. It's almost self-evident. 

[fr_ap 2,529]

7 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

@fr_aptop post and really insightful. Agree with it entirely. 

Most supporters want simple answers to sport and generally lack the insight/don't delve into the deeper layers that contribute to the success or failures of a team's fortune.

Max the leader needs more refinement as do a number of our players. I agree entirely with what you said regarding the podcast too. 

I think we're lucky in many ways to have Max as a captain because he is both insightful and emotionally intelligent but sometimes he talks first and listens later. Which is part of why he needs refinement as a person and captain. He possesses the tools to be able to help create a culture that becomes impenetrable, but sometimes I think the default comedic/muck-about side of him gets in the way. It's the old double-edged sword. 

My brother and I talk about these things all the time regarding MFC and other clubs across the competition. More philisophical than anything else. 

There were obviously a number of contributing factors that led to our disconnect this year. But the fractures to our culture/'Melbourne player' theme that you pointed out across the entire season have definitely played a big part. 

 

Very good post and agree with the comments on Max. Great in a lot of ways but "talks first, listens later" is a good succinct summary of his shortcomings. 

My brother was in the loading camp and insists we've fallen short this year due to luck, nothing else. If only we could have philosophical discussion! 

[At the break of Gawn 4,460]

I’m a firm believer that the game has shifted to a complete system based game. The teams with the best system win.  It’s less about talent, it’s less about fitness, and it’s less about culture. It’s all about how you can execute your role in that system. Perhaps some players did take it easy over the off-season and hence couldn’t execute their role to the level that was required, which you could point to culture/standards, however, I think in our case, it was a mixture of a system that has been worked out by the opposition , and players just 2-3% off their role execution which exposes flaws.

We need a new system for 2023 and we also need a system that can still stand up when players are a few % off their usual output. 
 

More on-field success will improve the culture. People never talked about the Geelong culture until they started winning multiple premierships. Ironically, no one talks about the Hawthorn culture anymore as their on-field success has deserted them with a large scale re-build - but who would know if their culture isn’t just as strong as it was in their 3-peat era?

[Sir Why You Little 37,121]

Our problems were structural, not cultural 

We were in every game, bar 1

We needed a Key Forward and it was not available 

[Mach5 4,768]

1 hour ago, rpfc said:

Were some players complacent with their preparation? Did they do the extra sessions they did the year before? Were we too comfortable with performances of certain players? 

I think this kind of thing eats away at any ‘culture’ that has been to the summit.

I don’t think it’s the reason but I think a certain level of comfort and complacency being a factor is hard to argue with really.

Shame is a great driver though looking for a response.

I think even more than that, our team was suited to and assisted by the covid-imposed hub conditions. I feel that external influences impacted upon us this season, while last season they were quelled or lessened by the forced relocation.

Whether that be families, girlfriends, mates, whatever - cumulatively I think it had an adverse effect on us this year.

One of many factors.

[BDA 22,873]

We need a definition of culture. It’s a very amorphous term but I reckon it’s the standards and expectations demanded by the club and playing Group and the behaviours which demonstrate this.

The May incident was a bad look but I don’t think indicative of a deeper problem. Just May being a dh on the drink

Looking back the pressure rating was a real canary in the goldmine. From 1^st to 17^th in the space of a year is insane. Culturally strong clubs wouldn't allow this to happen you would think.  And right from the get-go as well. Could have been gameplan related (too taxing), could have trying to save ourselves because we weren’t quite fit enough I don’t know. You would have to be instead the club and know what was said, what training was like, what standards were let slide to really know.

The culture was strong last year, it had to be otherwise we couldn’t win the flag. If standards have slipped since then we should be able to re-affirm the standards required and go again

Next year will tell the tale. I expect to bounce back, finish top 4 and play in a prelim. If we don’t then we’ll know something is fundamentally wrong

[Lord Nev 13,512]

1 hour ago, fr_ap said:

Fantastic post. 

To the naysayers - why don't you believe it even when it's come from the horses mouth?

The players spoke about the selfless culture last year. Goodwin spoke about it. Gawns book describes it in detail. 

When we utterly destroyed Geelong and WB - Goodwin's post game address to the players said "that's your culture coming out, right to the end". 

It's not crazy, nor lazy, to suggest it slipped this year. It's almost self-evident. 

Right, so our "culture" totally dissipated in one offseason?

Sorry, it's a cop out argument.

Same type of argument as when angry supporters blame lack of effort, which generally comes from the "kick it long" types.

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,121]

11 minutes ago, BDA said:

We need a definition of culture. It’s a very amorphous term but I reckon it’s the standards and expectations demanded by the club and playing Group and the behaviours which demonstrate this.

The May incident was a bad look but I don’t think indicative of a deeper problem. Just May being a dh on the drink

Looking back the pressure rating was a real canary in the goldmine. From 1^st to 17^th in the space of a year is insane. Culturally strong clubs wouldn't allow this to happen you would think.  And right from the get-go as well. Could have been gameplan related (too taxing), could have trying to save ourselves because we weren’t quite fit enough I don’t know. You would have to be instead the club and know what was said, what training was like, what standards were let slide to really know.

The culture was strong last year, it had to be otherwise we couldn’t win the flag. If standards have slipped since then we should be able to re-affirm the standards required and go again

Next year will tell the tale. I expect to bounce back, finish top 4 and play in a prelim. If we don’t then we’ll know something is fundamentally wrong

I don’t think the Club did anything wrong this year. I don’t think they were complacent. Goodwin played in Back to Back Flags

But what we did do was not quite good enough. This is when an interal review IS important 

What can be improved?

Do we need to refresh assistant coaches?

 

[Demon Jim 149]

Culture is an outcome of a whole lot of small things that add up. You can't see it or touch it but when you have a good culture good things happen. This year we have not done quite as many of the things that fed the culture last year. Hence the outcome. If we go back to doing all those little things we did a year earlier then goodness will naturally follow.

[JimmyGadson 3,455]

8 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Right, so our "culture" totally dissipated in one offseason?

Totally dissipated in one offseason?

Where'd you read that, I wanna know where that was stated!

Do tell!

[Wrecker46 3,016]

2 hours ago, mo64 said:

Craig McCrae took over the club that was considered a "cultural cesspit". And right off the bat, his star player DeGoey reinforces that opinion.

Fast forward, and a team most expected to finish bottom 4 are now in a Prelim.

If you think that "culture" is so important, then it clearly hasn't been a challenge for McCrae. Or maybe his players are just playing a better brand of football and have self belief.

 

 

Maybe Buckley was the cultural problem

[Lord Nev 13,512]

3 minutes ago, JimmyGadson said:

Totally dissipated in one offseason?

Where'd you read that, I wanna know where that was stated!

Do tell!

Seriously? Read the first post in this thread again, you know the one that blames our "culture" for a failed year.

 

[Ethan Tremblay 30,962]

3 hours ago, Satyriconhome said:

Guff/Twaddle

What’s being said within the inner-sanctum Saty, in particular, has there been any discussion on what lead to a below average second half of the season? 

[deegirl 1,578]

Culture isn’t static, it has its ups and downs. It doesn’t magically stay good, or bad, without constant work. 
 

The response to this seasons results, the upcoming pre-season & 2023 are the real indicators of culture. This is their big test. 

[Watson11 2,241]

Interesting that the assumption is that we won last year based on our strong culture!  Where’s the evidence?

One off success has nothing to do with culture. Collingwood in 2010 are a classic example.  Youngest premiership team ever, and their supporters would have expected more success but it all went to [censored] (Our CEO hopefully learnt something from that).  We now know they had a divided playing group and [censored] culture. West Coast 2006.  Crows 2017 almost got there. All despite what we now know was a crap culture.

Culture is what maintains success for a long period.  Sydney have a strong culture.  Hawthorn as well.

Carlton and Essendon used to but their cheating destroyed it overnight.  Hopefully they are a few decades from recovering.

The jury is still well and truly out as to whether we are building a strong culture.

[mo64 5,881]

1 hour ago, Sir Why You Little said:

Our problems were structural, not cultural 

We were in every game, bar 1

We needed a Key Forward and it was not available 

Agree. And you can never accuse us of being "flat" or "not switched on", because our 1st quarters were generally our best. 

[Wodjathefirst 2,653]

After all is said and done, more is said than done….Hmmmm