TRAINING: Friday 12th August 2022

[forever demons 2,042]

2 minutes ago, Neil Crompton said:

Deranged is not a word I’d use for you WCW. 
I think “special” is way more appropriate.

Think I will go with ODD🤣

[Neil Crompton 5,121]

1 minute ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

“Special” can mean many things. I’m gonna assume in this instance it’s a good kind of special. 💕

Yes it does have many meanings. And you are definitely one of them.

[WalkingCivilWar 36,520]

4 minutes ago, forever demons said:

Think I will go with ODD🤣

I’ll take Odd. I’ve been called way worse. 😁

[Dee Zephyr 18,686]

It’s been a while since a training thread has hit 4 pages and it was only a Captain’s run. 

[forever demons 2,042]

4 minutes ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

I’ll take Odd. I’ve been called way worse. 😁

I will knee cap anybody who did ,pm photos and any known address.We must all stick together

[rpfc 27,791]

3 hours ago, Webber said:

Your ‘reckless’ argument in this thread is constructed on assumptions and hindsight. Injury management is galaxies from being an exact science. It may have been perfectly sensible for them to put Salem back on, if they were thinking he’d just jarred the knee, and could run it off in game time. In this way, it’s a form of injury assessment. This happens. All players carry niggles throughout the season. If I had $5 for every time I’ve advised a sportsperson - “now let’s just suck it and see” - you know the story. Rarely are players niggle free, particularly as the season runs on. Ergo, the decision to rest-play is a risk-reward scenario. You seem to be suggesting they should always honour the risk. That’s never going to happen. There are obvious advantages to the team and player to playing through imperfection. Also, you (and others) seem very confident in assessing who is injured, and it’s so often just based on form - Maxy, Salem, Jordon, it goes on. The number of times I read ‘he’s obviously carrying something, they shouldn’t have played him’ is immeasurable, and mostly a rationalisation to explain a variety of factors influencing form. This belief that the MFC are somehow defying convention by having players play through soreness and mild injury is also nonsense. All clubs do it. There wouldn’t be many players running around if they didn’t. It’s just a risk-reward policy exercised over a very imperfect, multi-factorial game and season. 

I don’t disagree. I just haven’t encountered, until last season, a team and a high performance person advertise playing and training through injury/niggle/whatever as a point of difference like they did and do.

I can only watch on from afar and lump it, I just know they are really straddling that line when you see Lever with his boot off at half time or Petty struggling to jog before another trip down into the rooms for a jab.

[WalkingCivilWar 36,520]

1 hour ago, forever demons said:

I will knee cap anybody who did ,pm photos and any known address.We must all stick together

For starters, there’s “forever demons” who implied that I’m deranged. You no doubt have the address. 😁👍🏽💖

[WalkingCivilWar 36,520]

1 hour ago, Dee Zephyr said:

It’s been a while since a training thread has hit 4 pages and it was only a Captain’s run. 

Probs coz it’s been a while since a deranged supporter has attended the Captain’s Run, DZ. 😁

[Neil Crompton 5,121]

1 hour ago, Dee Zephyr said:

It’s been a while since a training thread has hit 4 pages and it was only a Captain’s run. 

Ah, you just get the shielas involved and it could go on ad infinitum.

(sorry about that, I don’t know what came over me, I just had a BBO moment)

(actually, Shiela is an Irish word meaning heaven - which is really apt for all our shielas on DL)

[WalkingCivilWar 36,520]

5 minutes ago, Neil Crompton said:

Shiela is an Irish word meaning heaven - which is really apt for all our shielas on DL)

Smooth as silk, NC. Smooooth as silk. 
But I’m taking it anyways. And rightfully too since I’m Irish. ☘️

And proud to be a Sheila. 🙂

And proud to be a Demons devotee  ❤️💙

GO THE MIGHTY DEES!

GIVE ‘EM HELL!!!

in case you can’t tell… I’ve had three coffees and two  cans of Red Bull, which really does give you wings. 😁

[Webber 10,288]

31 minutes ago, rpfc said:

I don’t disagree. I just haven’t encountered, until last season, a team and a high performance person advertise playing and training through injury/niggle/whatever as a point of difference like they did and do.

I can only watch on from afar and lump it, I just know they are really straddling that line when you see Lever with his boot off at half time or Petty struggling to jog before another trip down into the rooms for a jab.

I get it, and feel your frustration, but it’s always a line-straddle, just a matter of how you look at it. I think Burgo’s ‘advertised’ play-through-imperfection policy was frankly just a bit of honesty. Not really new and certainly not a point of difference. 

[Webber 10,288]

2 hours ago, mo64 said:

Webber, we appreciate your input as a medico. But I think the point that rpfc is making is that surely you would be more cautious going into round 1 with a player carrying an injury? You've had weeks to assess the injury, compared with maybe a few days once the season has commenced. The injury was a chipped cartilage. Does that type of injury heal with rest, or is surgery the only solution?

My point mo is that it all depends. The very likely situation here is that he had a bit of ‘run of the mill’ joint bruising/irritation that they thought would improve over the early part of the season, whence he could still play, and that the ‘chondral chipping’, if related (big IF), occurred in that 1st quarter, hence need for surgery. Once again, risk-reward in a situation where all wins are vital (don’t we know it). More specifically, they would have assessed the risk as such that he plays. The other possibility, just as likely, is that the 1st quarter injury was unrelated to anything he carried into the game. Imperfections and unknowns. 

[picket fence 16,016]

2 hours ago, WalkingCivilWar said:

Oh, I don’t deny that. My rap sheet’s a mile long. But surely I’m not the only deranged supporter. There’s probs heaps on here just as deranged. Right? Somebody? ANYBODY???

Yeah well, ok I'll Fess up WCW

[Neil Crompton 5,121]

3 minutes ago, picket fence said:

Yeah well, ok I'll Fess up WCW

Haha No need for a confession picket, over the years you’ve done all you possibly could to confirm that.

[rpfc 27,791]

24 minutes ago, Webber said:

I get it, and feel your frustration, but it’s always a line-straddle, just a matter of how you look at it. I think Burgo’s ‘advertised’ play-through-imperfection policy was frankly just a bit of honesty. Not really new and certainly not a point of difference. 

The train-through-everything definitely was sold that way. Gawn never missed a session in 2021 according to him. It’s just the selling point of ‘resilience’ that has never sat entirely well with me. What Geelong have done with Dangerfield and Selwood seems (again seems) diametrically opposed to that. We don’t have those older players but we do have players with turgid injury histories. 

They’re just engaging in risk and that is fine; that’s football, I just graze against the sell. Prothletysing process is when you get bad decisions, embrace complexity and uniqueness and reject ubiquity! That’s my motto…

[Watson11 2,009]

33 minutes ago, rpfc said:

The train-through-everything definitely was sold that way. Gawn never missed a session in 2021 according to him. It’s just the selling point of ‘resilience’ that has never sat entirely well with me. What Geelong have done with Dangerfield and Selwood seems (again seems) diametrically opposed to that. We don’t have those older players but we do have players with turgid injury histories. 

They’re just engaging in risk and that is fine; that’s football, I just graze against the sell. Prothletysing process is when you get bad decisions, embrace complexity and uniqueness and reject ubiquity! That’s my motto…

Burgos resilience idea was not about knees and ankles. One podcast where he spoke about it was about his time at Arsenal and how they had masses of data (10 years or so), and he hired a data analyst who went back through it all to see if there was any correlation between player management (resting or not), and soft tissue injury. It turned out there was no benefit to resting, hence Burgo’s next job was with us and he adopted a strategy of not letting players have sessions off if they were tired or sore or needed to be managed.  There is also plenty of other stuff in his podcasts talking about soft tissue injuries, and there are only a couple of factors proven to be linked to them. One is variation in training loads.  So he adopted the theory that resting players make them more likely to suffer soft tissue injuries when they came back to full training.

But I have never heard Burgo or others apply the same to joint injuries. That is an entirely separate debate to what Burgo actually proposed.

[rpfc 27,791]

2 hours ago, Watson11 said:

Burgos resilience idea was not about knees and ankles. One podcast where he spoke about it was about his time at Arsenal and how they had masses of data (10 years or so), and he hired a data analyst who went back through it all to see if there was any correlation between player management (resting or not), and soft tissue injury. It turned out there was no benefit to resting, hence Burgo’s next job was with us and he adopted a strategy of not letting players have sessions off if they were tired or sore or needed to be managed.  There is also plenty of other stuff in his podcasts talking about soft tissue injuries, and there are only a couple of factors proven to be linked to them. One is variation in training loads.  So he adopted the theory that resting players make them more likely to suffer soft tissue injuries when they came back to full training.

But I have never heard Burgo or others apply the same to joint injuries. That is an entirely separate debate to what Burgo actually proposed.

I will defer to better judges when it comes to the efficacy and effectiveness of high performance ethos and methods. My interpretation of what Gawn, Burgan and others have said is a tad broader than what you are describing but really, the proof is not for me to post about, it is in the performances of those that have obviously struggled with injury this year. So if Lever, Petty, May, Salem, Rivers, Brown, and Hibberd are playing well for these last 5 weeks then great. I withdraw my comments and concerns about my perception of their management of non-impact injuries.

I stand by my critique of how it was talked about however. Between Burgo, Gawn, pert and Roffey - we talk a lot of shirt that is just normal operations for a good footy club.

[Trisul 655]

3 hours ago, Watson11 said:

There is also plenty of other stuff in his podcasts talking about soft tissue injuries, and there are only a couple of factors proven to be linked to them. One is variation in training loads.  

 Too soon?

Edited August 13, 2022 by Trisul

[Webber 10,288]

5 hours ago, rpfc said:

It’s just the selling point of ‘resilience’ that has never sat entirely well with me

Nor me. It was way too simplistic, and frankly a bit ‘grandstandy’. (If you can have your fabulous motto, I can have grandstandy 😊).