The pow wow

[binman 43,051]

As regulars readers of Demonland know, I believe the biggest factor in our form over the last two months is loading.  Not the only factor. But by far the most impactful factor. 

Regulars reader will also know how frustrating i find the media analysis of our great game.

There is a thread asking if people have enjoyed this season. I was reflecting on that question and realized that last season i lapped up every media mention of the dees, whereas as this year i can barely watch anything, such is my frustration with the pathetic level of analysis and how completely wrong it usually is.

Demonstone made the reasonable point sometime back that if i get so wound up by David King, then i should just stop watching or listening to him. And i have largely taken that advice.

But my issue is how analysis that is just so wrong shapes fans' perception and opinions.

Both of these things (loading and rubbish analysis) came crashing together when i watched David King on the 'watchlist' segment on 360 on Wednesday night.

I am amazed how few comments there has been on Demonland about the segment, and as far i have seen, not one person pushing back or critising David King.

I am still livid.

Why?

Because David King insulted our players. Insulted our leaders. Insulted our team. Insulted Trac. Insulted Clarry. Insulted Max. Said there was 'no investment there in your teammate. It's every man for himself '.

I am ropeable. 

And on his analysis he is so so wrong.

In short his thesis is that teams are 'switching against the demons more than anyone else' in the last 6-8 weeks and that they are able to do so because we are not invested, we are not working hard enough, we are complacent, we have lost our hunger.

To make his case he showed a clip from the 2021 round 8 game against the Swans where with our incredible all team defence we completely covered the corridor kick and the switch, forcing the Swans down the line to an aerial contest.

He is right in saying that is our method. He is also right in saying that we have not been doing that in the last 8 matches.

And to demonstrate that latter point he also showed a clip from the dogs game last weekend where, after a free to the dogs deep in their defence, we had time to set up our grid but didn't and allowed the ball to exit our forward line with relative ease. 

But he is completely wrong as to why that is the case. 

If King had chosen any other game we played between round 11 and round 19 instead of that Swans game he literally could have chosen dozens of similar examples of us not covering the switch or failing to get the game looking how we want it to look.

Hell, he could have chosen the exact corresponding round 19 game from last year against the same side, where the dogs won because we could not stop them switching or force them down the line.

I freely admit that there is fair dose of confirmation bias here, but the three players he highlighted, Trac, Clarry and Sparrow all looked completely exhausted to me. Sparrow was gassed, and bent over sucking in the big ones.

Again, i'm not looking for debate, so please don't worry about rebutting me, but we have been fatigued because of loading in EVERY game since round 11 (with the exception of the lions game - which came after the bye and the enforced break). That is why we have been overrun in the second half in EVERY game since round 11 (except the lions game).

And that is why we are not stopping teams switch as well as we normally do.

Only the Tigers and Freo have an all team defensive system anywhere near as aerobically taxing as ours. Fatigue renders our system sub optimal at best, dysfunctional at worst. And all parts of our method have the defensive system as their foundation.

Take that defensive spread away and we are a completely different team. As we all saw between rounds 11 and 19 LAST season. And as we have seen again between rounds 11 and 19 THIS season. And as we will see between rounds 11 and 19 NEXT season (assuming we are top 4 contenders next year). 

So, King is wrong. Dead wrong.

But Joe the average footy fan doesn't know that. Joe the average footy fan laps up the [censored] narrative about the complacent premiers, full of leaders who are not 'invested'. 

And when we smash Freo tonight, will lap up next weeks equally [censored] narrative about the dees flicking a switch, rediscovering their hunger yada, yada yada. 

And the pow wow?

I have no idea what he was referencing, but he reckons we had a pow wow and that was evidence of our lack of investment (ie because we had to come together to address this issue).  I immediately checked Demonland because i had not heard of any such meeting. And there was, and has not been since, anything on here about any 'pow wow'.

Perhaps we did have some such meeting. But if not, i am assuming he was referring to our intense training session that got quite a bit of attention.

If so, again he is way, way off the mark. As 3183 noted in another thread, we did exactly same thing ahead of our round 20 clash last year, and super intense, match like training sessions were standard for the rest of the season. So, all part of the program, not some line in the sand palaver. 

I'm not looking for a debate. I understand that many people don't agree with my position on how impactful loading has been on our game. I simply wanted to put this out there before it all gets lost in this next, exciting phase we are about to enjoy.  

I'm not sure about others, but i for one won't cop our club and our players coping such pathetic, ill informed nonsense.

I don't have the technical skills to put the clip on here. Andy will add the clip at a later date, but if someone else has the skills to do that would be great. The date of the show is 27 July and the time stamp is 46.48 to 46.48

[chook fowler 19,459]

King is a non-entity. No point in responding to his drivel. 

[Dee Zephyr 19,267]

Crikey binman, you could’ve started this with “You might wanna grab yourself a beer”

I concur though.

[BDA 22,755]

11 minutes ago, binman said:

As regulars readers of Demonland know, I believe the biggest factor in our form over the last two months is loading.  Not the only factor. But by far the most impactful factor. 

Regulars reader will also know how frustrating i find the media analysis of our great game.

There is a thread asking if people have enjoyed this season. I was reflecting on that question and realized that last season i lapped up every media mention of the dees, whereas as this year i can barely watch anything, such is my frustration with the pathetic level of analysis and how completely wrong it usually is.

Demonstone made the reasonable point sometime back that if i get so wound up by David King, then i should just stop watching or listening to him. And i have largely taken that advice.

But my issue is how analysis that is just so wrong shapes fans' perception and opinions.

Both of these things (loading and rubbish analysis) came crashing together when i watched David King on the 'watchlist' segment on 360 on Wednesday night.

I am amazed how few comments there has been on Demonland about the segment, and as far i have seen, not one person pushing back or critising David King.

I am still livid.

Why?

Because David King insulted our players. Insulted our leaders. Insulted our team. Insulted Trac. Insulted Clarry. Insulted Max. Said there was 'no investment there in your teammate. It's every man for himself '.

I am ropeable. 

And on his analysis he is so so wrong.

In short his thesis is that teams are 'switching against the demons more than anyone else' in the last 6-8 weeks and that they are able to do so because we are not invested, we are not working hard enough, we are complacent, we have lost our hunger.

To make his case he showed a clip from the 2021 round 8 game against the Swans where with our incredible all team defence we completely covered the corridor kick and the switch, forcing the Swans down the line to an aerial contest.

He is right in saying that is our method. He is also right in saying that we have not been doing that in the last 8 matches.

And to demonstrate that latter point he also showed a clip from the dogs game last weekend where, after a free to the dogs deep in their defence, we had time to set up our grid but didn't and allowed the ball to exit our forward line with relative ease. 

But he is completely wrong as to why that is the case. 

If King had chosen any other game we played between round 11 and round 19 instead of that Swans game he literally could have chosen dozens of similar examples of us not covering the switch or failing to get the game looking how we want it to look.

Hell, he could have chosen the exact corresponding round 19 game from last year against the same side, where the dogs won because we could not stop them switching or force them down the line.

I freely admit that there is fair dose of confirmation bias here, but the three players he highlighted, Trac, Clarry and Sparrow all looked completely exhausted to me. Sparrow was gassed, and bent over sucking in the big ones.

Again, i'm not looking for debate, so please don't worry about rebutting me, but we have been fatigued because of loading in EVERY game since round 11 (with the exception of the lions game - which came after the bye and the enforced break). That is why we have been overrun in the second half in EVERY game since round 11 (except the lions game).

And that is why we are not stopping teams switch as well as we normally do.

Only the Tigers and Freo have an all team defensive system anywhere near as aerobically taxing as ours. Fatigue renders our system sub optimal at best, dysfunctional at worst. And all parts of our method have the defensive system as their foundation.

Take that defensive spread away and we are a completely different team. As we all saw between rounds 11 and 19 LAST season. And as we have seen again between rounds 11 and 19 THIS season. And as we will see between rounds 11 and 19 NEXT season (assuming we are top 4 contenders next year). 

So, King is wrong. Dead wrong.

But Joe the average footy fan doesn't know that. Joe the average footy fan laps up the [censored] narrative about the complacent premiers, full of leaders who are not 'invested'. 

And when we smash Freo tonight, will lap up next weeks equally [censored] narrative about the dees flicking a switch, rediscovering their hunger yada, yada yada. 

And the pow wow?

I have no idea what he was referencing, but he reckons we had a pow wow and that was evidence of our lack of investment (ie because we had to come together to address this issue).  I immediately checked Demonland because i had not heard of any such meeting. And there was, and has not been since, anything on here about any 'pow wow'.

Perhaps we did have some such meeting. But if not, i am assuming he was referring to our intense training session that got quite a bit of attention.

If so, again he is way, way off the mark. As 3183 noted in another thread, we did exactly same thing ahead of our round 20 clash last year, and super intense, match like training sessions were standard for the rest of the season. So, all part of the program, not some line in the sand palaver. 

I'm not looking for a debate. I understand that many people don't agree with my position on how impactful loading has been on our game. I simply wanted to put this out there before it all gets lost in this next, exciting phase we are about to enjoy.  

I'm not sure about others, but i for one won't cop our club and our players coping such pathetic, ill informed nonsense.

I don't have the technical skills to put the clip on here. Andy will add the clip at a later date, but if someone else has the skills to do that would be great. The date of the show is 27 July and the time stamp is 46.48 to 46.48

Great post Binman

I suggest Goody pin this to the dressing room wall and show it to the players before they enter the fray tonight. will fire them right up

 

[Dr. Gonzo 24,227]

I can't speak for others but the reason I haven't addressed, responded or rebutted David Kings comments is that I haven't seen them. Like you I have basically switched off from all footy media this year other than the odd episode of 360, On The Couch or First Crack. I too find the level of "analysis" bemusing at best and downright frustrating at worst. For players and coaches recently out of the game they should be delving into the tactics and strategies teams employ and trying to educate supporters so we can enjoy the modern game more instead of dumbing down the commentary and analysis.

Just look at the channel 7 commentary team, they'd much rather inform you what players do away from footy instead of explaining the complexities of the modern game to the average punter. Fox commentary team is slightly better. The analysis we do get is rarely more than parroting of champion data stats the majority of which we have no access to and often mean little without context.

[Gawndy the Great 9,011]

I can’t listen to anything either but more so because I hate the doom and gloom and we went from favourites to not a chance. 

I hope you are right @binman I really do. But for me it is going to be an unenjoyable night as I’m tense and have butterflies from anxiety.

Was listening to Jonesy on SEN on the way home before and he mentioned that we haven’t been as bad as everyone is saying and that there are positive elements to our game that no one really talks about. 
 

The big talking point was that sides have switched the most against us 27% with the next most being Doggies at 20%. Freo have been the most prolific switcher off half back but have lately been really slow allowing teams to setup. Make of that what you will. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by CYB

[Lord Nev 13,512]

5 minutes ago, binman said:

So, King is wrong. Dead wrong.

But Joe the average footy fan doesn't know that. Joe the average footy fan laps up the [censored] narrative about the complacent premiers, full of leaders who are not 'invested'. 

And when we smash Freo tonight, will lap up next weeks equally [censored] narrative about the dees flicking a switch, rediscovering their hunger yada, yada yada.

Why can't it be both?

FWIW, I agree with you about our taxing game style, and I'm in the loading camp (albeit not as invested in it as yourself), but Goodwin, Petracca and Brayshaw have all talked about us trying to find our 'ruthlessness' again this week. That speaks pretty clearly to complacency and attitude.

And tbh, pretty poor form to tell other posters not to debate or provide rebuttal of your opinion that we've been "loading in EVERY game since round 11". You ask King for facts, can you provide the actual facts that prove that?

All things said, it's patently obvious the keyword this week is "ruthless" and that absolutely speaks more towards attitude than fitness.

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, chook fowler said:

King is a non-entity. No point in responding to his drivel. 

Yes, King is full of [censored]. We all agree on that. But as Binman said, Joe the average footy fan laps the narrative up and believes King when he makes insulting and inaccurate statements. 

I’m glad I didn’t watch that show. I don’t need to be unnecessarily angry, it’s a waste of energy. 

[Demonstone 22,579]

Telephone message for a Mr. D. King of Fox Sports:

 

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

Seriously David King changes his opinion. 5 times a week. That’s what Hutchison likes…

[BW511 2,673]

I agree wholeheartedly, without having seen the segment or much of the media attention.

Science is an enormous part of our game and the general punter can’t/won’t allow themselves to see it.

One thing I mentioned a few weeks back was the way Motorsport is covered and in particular, their willingness to get technical beyond what you would think a casual fan could understand. The AFL has long treated the supporter base like fools and I think the supporter base are fools for allowing it.

Let’s hope the tables turn tonight and we can tip our hat in appreciation of the exercise science crowd who have transformed our squad

[binman 43,051]

5 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

 

And tbh, pretty poor form to tell other posters not to debate or provide rebuttal of your opinion that we've been "loading in EVERY game since round 11". You ask King for facts, can you provide the actual facts that prove that?

 

What I meant, and should have said is I'm not interested in debating loading and won't respond to rebuttal.

Happy of course for people to put any contrary opinion. I just was flagging that i won't respond

There is a whole thread on loading to debate the impact of loading.

But please, not invested, no care for teammates? [censored] him.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

2 minutes ago, binman said:

What I meant, and should have said is I'm not interested in debating loading and won't respond to rebuttal.

Happy of course for people to put any contrary opinion. I just was flagging that i won't respond

There is a whole thread on loading to debate the impact of loading.

That's fair enough then. Agree that it would be annoying to start the loading debate again!

[inanunda 351]

Is there any concrete proof we have been loading? Officially from the club? Or are we making up excuses for poor performance?

 

 

[Neil Crompton 5,570]

6 minutes ago, binman said:

I'm not sure about others, but i for one won't cop our club and our players coping such pathetic, ill informed nonsense.

binman, two things:

-I’ve never understood the point in getting upset at what outsiders say. Definitely not a lot you can do about it, apart from what you have done - venting with your mates. Hope it has helped.

- I actually don’t mind the us and them situation, ‘cause when we prove these jerks wrong, it will be just so satisfying.

 

[binman 43,051]

1 minute ago, inanunda said:

Is there any concrete proof we have been loading? Officially from the club? Or are we making up excuses for poor performance?

 

 

We are making up excuses for poor performance.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

Goody this week: "...bring that consistency in how we play, that ruthlessness and that hunger...." ..."that ruthless edge about how we play..." “It’s a complete buy in to what we do from a method perspective, it’s a complete buy in to the behaviours that sit within it and there’s an urgency and ruthlessness about how you go about it."

Demonland: 'YES GOODY!'

Kingy: 'The Dees need to find that hunger and ruthlessness, they need to buy in....'

Demonland: 'Shut up Kingy what would you know!'

[Sir Why You Little 37,046]

2 minutes ago, inanunda said:

Is there any concrete proof we have been loading? Officially from the club? Or are we making up excuses for poor performance?

 

 

Loading has been part of the Years training. Losing Key Position Players, both defensive and attacking throughout the season has just made everything tougher. 
 

[The heart beats true 18,128]

7 minutes ago, inanunda said:

Is there any concrete proof we have been loading? Officially from the club? Or are we making up excuses for poor performance?

 

 

Kingy? Is that you?

[1964_2 2,357]

50 minutes ago, binman said:

As regulars readers of Demonland know, I believe the biggest factor in our form over the last two months is loading.  Not the only factor. But by far the most impactful factor. 

Regulars reader will also know how frustrating i find the media analysis of our great game.

There is a thread asking if people have enjoyed this season. I was reflecting on that question and realized that last season i lapped up every media mention of the dees, whereas as this year i can barely watch anything, such is my frustration with the pathetic level of analysis and how completely wrong it usually is.

Demonstone made the reasonable point sometime back that if i get so wound up by David King, then i should just stop watching or listening to him. And i have largely taken that advice.

But my issue is how analysis that is just so wrong shapes fans' perception and opinions.

Both of these things (loading and rubbish analysis) came crashing together when i watched David King on the 'watchlist' segment on 360 on Wednesday night.

I am amazed how few comments there has been on Demonland about the segment, and as far i have seen, not one person pushing back or critising David King.

I am still livid.

Why?

Because David King insulted our players. Insulted our leaders. Insulted our team. Insulted Trac. Insulted Clarry. Insulted Max. Said there was 'no investment there in your teammate. It's every man for himself '.

I am ropeable. 

And on his analysis he is so so wrong.

In short his thesis is that teams are 'switching against the demons more than anyone else' in the last 6-8 weeks and that they are able to do so because we are not invested, we are not working hard enough, we are complacent, we have lost our hunger.

To make his case he showed a clip from the 2021 round 8 game against the Swans where with our incredible all team defence we completely covered the corridor kick and the switch, forcing the Swans down the line to an aerial contest.

He is right in saying that is our method. He is also right in saying that we have not been doing that in the last 8 matches.

And to demonstrate that latter point he also showed a clip from the dogs game last weekend where, after a free to the dogs deep in their defence, we had time to set up our grid but didn't and allowed the ball to exit our forward line with relative ease. 

But he is completely wrong as to why that is the case. 

If King had chosen any other game we played between round 11 and round 19 instead of that Swans game he literally could have chosen dozens of similar examples of us not covering the switch or failing to get the game looking how we want it to look.

Hell, he could have chosen the exact corresponding round 19 game from last year against the same side, where the dogs won because we could not stop them switching or force them down the line.

I freely admit that there is fair dose of confirmation bias here, but the three players he highlighted, Trac, Clarry and Sparrow all looked completely exhausted to me. Sparrow was gassed, and bent over sucking in the big ones.

Again, i'm not looking for debate, so please don't worry about rebutting me, but we have been fatigued because of loading in EVERY game since round 11 (with the exception of the lions game - which came after the bye and the enforced break). That is why we have been overrun in the second half in EVERY game since round 11 (except the lions game).

And that is why we are not stopping teams switch as well as we normally do.

Only the Tigers and Freo have an all team defensive system anywhere near as aerobically taxing as ours. Fatigue renders our system sub optimal at best, dysfunctional at worst. And all parts of our method have the defensive system as their foundation.

Take that defensive spread away and we are a completely different team. As we all saw between rounds 11 and 19 LAST season. And as we have seen again between rounds 11 and 19 THIS season. And as we will see between rounds 11 and 19 NEXT season (assuming we are top 4 contenders next year). 

So, King is wrong. Dead wrong.

But Joe the average footy fan doesn't know that. Joe the average footy fan laps up the [censored] narrative about the complacent premiers, full of leaders who are not 'invested'. 

And when we smash Freo tonight, will lap up next weeks equally [censored] narrative about the dees flicking a switch, rediscovering their hunger yada, yada yada. 

And the pow wow?

I have no idea what he was referencing, but he reckons we had a pow wow and that was evidence of our lack of investment (ie because we had to come together to address this issue).  I immediately checked Demonland because i had not heard of any such meeting. And there was, and has not been since, anything on here about any 'pow wow'.

Perhaps we did have some such meeting. But if not, i am assuming he was referring to our intense training session that got quite a bit of attention.

If so, again he is way, way off the mark. As 3183 noted in another thread, we did exactly same thing ahead of our round 20 clash last year, and super intense, match like training sessions were standard for the rest of the season. So, all part of the program, not some line in the sand palaver. 

I'm not looking for a debate. I understand that many people don't agree with my position on how impactful loading has been on our game. I simply wanted to put this out there before it all gets lost in this next, exciting phase we are about to enjoy.  

I'm not sure about others, but i for one won't cop our club and our players coping such pathetic, ill informed nonsense.

I don't have the technical skills to put the clip on here. Andy will add the clip at a later date, but if someone else has the skills to do that would be great. The date of the show is 27 July and the time stamp is 46.48 to 46.48

Really well said.

I have found much the same. Watched most of the mid-week media shows last year. But would be lucky to watch more than 15 minutes a week this year.

Don’t let it get to you. Unfortunately the big media $$ aren’t paid to guys/ladies such as Kingy for correct insightful analysis (that would be over the heads of 80% of consumers). Instead they are paid for the ability to generate a reaction (no matter how much poetic license is required to generate an emotional reaction)  

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by 1964_2

[Lord Nev 13,512]

Richo on SEN tonight:

'We haven't been as ruthless as we need to be... possibly been a little complacent...'

(Re 'Pow Wow') 'This week's there's been a bit more than usual... there's been an honest conversation'

 

[1964_2 2,357]

12 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Goody this week: "...bring that consistency in how we play, that ruthlessness and that hunger...." ..."that ruthless edge about how we play..." “It’s a complete buy in to what we do from a method perspective, it’s a complete buy in to the behaviours that sit within it and there’s an urgency and ruthlessness about how you go about it."

Demonland: 'YES GOODY!'

Kingy: 'The Dees need to find that hunger and ruthlessness, they need to buy in....'

Demonland: 'Shut up Kingy what would you know!'

LN, you know as well as anyone that clubs and players also use the media as a tool, for their own benefit. And we have been through the reasons in the past why clubs/players/coaches are selective about not releasing certain intel into the media. 

 

[Bitter but optimistic 22,241]

I know where your heart and head is @binman but give us supporters some credit.

While I didn't watch the segment you referenced , I do watch/listen/read to some of the analysis provided by the Media.

However, ultimately I make my own decisions based on what I've seen. I don't think footy supporters are totally gullible.

[Cheap Seats 3,310]

Time will tell 

Drop the next 4 and loading might be irrelevant.

[Lord Nev 13,512]

Just now, 1964_2 said:

LN, you know as well as anyone that clubs and players also use the media as a tool, for their own benefit. And we have been through the reasons in the past why clubs/players/coaches are selective about not releasing certain intel into the media.

Just find it strange that all of Goody, Trac, Gus and Richo all say we haven't been ruthlessness enough, Richo tonight even said we've been complacent, and we take it on board, but then a media type says it and we crack it.