1 hour ago, Jaded No More said:

We've put a premium on prolonging Gawn's career without robbing the best inside mid of an A grade ruckman.

If Grundy helps Gawn play another 3-4 season instead of another 1-2, he's been worth it. 

Since when do we need another A grade ruckman to prolong Gawns career?

The best mids last year had a bloke by the name of Rhys Stanley as their number 1 ruckman who's 100% no where near A grade quality. Just an honest battler who competed when needed.

The Gawn Grundy combination will work because it'll be forced to work mind you. Will take some time but so does any new player that comes into a whole new system. 

 

Outside of certain Demandlanders Australian football has a dearth of high-level analysis. In the NBA they use the stat: 'value over replacement player and win shares amongst others. There are a bunch of advanced statistics as well as the 'eye test' to see the value of star players. Clearly a lot easier in a sport where there are only 5 players on the court for each team.

The commentary about allocating value by position is only one element, it is also the value of each players relative to their competition. If Grundy is expected to get back to close to his AA best, where he was arguably a top 20 player in the AFL, vs. an average starting level tall forward...it is not so cut and dry. If Grundy helps augment the value of our other star players in the midfield, in defence providing better defensive pressure on mids and in attack with better overlap run...This is a perfect fit for Melbourne.

Collingwood are looking for a run and gun, overlapping handball game where they counterattack heavily. This requires high aerobic capacity and good athletes and skills across the ground. While they would love to improve their key forwards, their model is actually built around having forwards like Fritsch who are highly interchangeable and mobile as we saw in 2022 to great success. 

I would actually say Collingwood made a mistake. Their forwardline was not their issue, but their midfield was beaten convincingly every week in clearances...if they had better exits from the midfield they would have even better attack and their backline would be in an even better position to create repeat entries. 

I would argue a top 3 ruckman, in the top tier of ruckman is much better than an average starter level key forward. Especially in a Collingwood system that doesn't use their key forwards in the way that Carton for example do. 

Just from what has been said by two posters on this page , I'm of the opinion that there is one other contingency that is not being included here, and that is Pickett. I know this subject is Grundy but I'm thinking that Kozzie is going to be in the middle and elsewhere around throw ins and stoppages, and will  get great benefit from his presence.. 

2 hours ago, BigMacjnr said:

Outside of certain Demandlanders Australian football has a dearth of high-level analysis. In the NBA they use the stat: 'value over replacement player and win shares amongst others. There are a bunch of advanced statistics as well as the 'eye test' to see the value of star players. Clearly a lot easier in a sport where there are only 5 players on the court for each team.

The commentary about allocating value by position is only one element, it is also the value of each players relative to their competition. If Grundy is expected to get back to close to his AA best, where he was arguably a top 20 player in the AFL, vs. an average starting level tall forward...it is not so cut and dry. If Grundy helps augment the value of our other star players in the midfield, in defence providing better defensive pressure on mids and in attack with better overlap run...This is a perfect fit for Melbourne.

Collingwood are looking for a run and gun, overlapping handball game where they counterattack heavily. This requires high aerobic capacity and good athletes and skills across the ground. While they would love to improve their key forwards, their model is actually built around having forwards like Fritsch who are highly interchangeable and mobile as we saw in 2022 to great success. 

I would actually say Collingwood made a mistake. Their forwardline was not their issue, but their midfield was beaten convincingly every week in clearances...if they had better exits from the midfield they would have even better attack and their backline would be in an even better position to create repeat entries. 

I would argue a top 3 ruckman, in the top tier of ruckman is much better than an average starter level key forward. Especially in a Collingwood system that doesn't use their key forwards in the way that Carton for example do. 

For Grundy to get back to AA level at Melbourne, it would mean at the expense of Max. Grundy was an AA playing 90% game time as the ruckman, and was rarely rested up forward. When you consider that Max is a vastly superior ruckman than Grundy, your argument that Grundy augments the value of other players is redundant.

And how do you explain that the Pies have beaten us that 3 times without Grundy? It's not difficult for coaches to plan when they have a losing ruckman. Darcy Cameron and Mason Cox have hurt as forwards, something that Grundy has never managed in his career.

6 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Since when do we need another A grade ruckman to prolong Gawns career?

The best mids last year had a bloke by the name of Rhys Stanley as their number 1 ruckman who's 100% no where near A grade quality. Just an honest battler who competed when needed.

The Gawn Grundy combination will work because it'll be forced to work mind you. Will take some time but so does any new player that comes into a whole new system. 

 

I would argue that we have a better midfield than Geelong and by a long way. Our midfield has had silver service for years. You can’t just go replacing an A+ ruckman with some random lump and think it won’t really hurt our midfield not to mention what we get around the ground from Gawn. He isn’t just a ruckman. 
Neither is Grundy. Neither was Jackson. It’s why we invested so heavily in both. We want to have strong rucks and we now have arguably two of the best. 

12 hours ago, Gator said:

Listening to Ross Lyon on RSN reference the game he lamented how challenging it was with Marshall up against both Grundy and Gawn and how they were giving us momentum around the ball.  He gave an exacerbated laugh as he was saying it.

And that's the thing.  It's won't all be about the rucks kicking goals, or clunking contested marks in the forward 50, it's that the opposition ruckman and midfield get no respite.  Every stoppage they're up against an AA quality ruck giving their mids momentum.  Not all hitouts will be to advantage, but the opposition isn't hitting them to advantage either.

 

Agree 100%.

I saw an interview with Brendan Lade who is an assistant at the Bulldogs and when asked about English he responded by talking about combatting Gawn and Grundy in round 1.

Gawn and Grundy is not about each of them performing at the peak of their potential as an individual. Clearly they would have more impressive individual outputs as true #1 rucks. It’s about forcing other teams to do things in team selection and/or tactically that they’d prefer not to do.

If on top of that when resting forward they force the biggest and strongest defender to man them up instead of going to Brown or TMac, then that’s another tactical bonus.

Edited March 1, 20232 yr by Lampers

7 hours ago, Lampers said:

Agree 100%.

I saw an interview with Brendan Lade who is an assistant at the Bulldogs and when asked about English he responded by talking about combatting Gawn and Grundy in round 1.

Gawn and Grundy is not about each of them performing at the peak of their potential as an individual. Clearly they would have more impressive individual outputs as true #1 rucks. It’s about forcing other teams to do things in team selection and/or tactically that they’d prefer not to do.

If on top of that when resting forward they force the biggest and strongest defender to man them up instead of going to Brown or TMac, then that’s another tactical bonus.

Absolutely.

If you have a 7 foot Gawn standing up forward, all of a sudden you need to always have an extra body near by. That means someone like Fritsch, who is by far our best forward, is harder to double team.

Gawn is not the best kick, but he is an elite mark. You would worry having him behind the ball or in front of it. It's why club spend so much time trying to hit him at every contest. They know it's basically impossible to stop him for 100% of the game.

Now add in Grundy, who at his peak was as good as Gawn (well I don't think he was, but some do), and suddenly you have to plan to play 2 rucks, or concede the centre square ruck contests, or plan for an additional tall defender to man one of Gawn or Grundy when they are resting forward. 

Most clubs don't want to carry an extra tall into games unless that tall is a really good player. Otherwise they are often a liability and rob you for additional mid rotations which are so important in today's two way defensive game. 

So, he really is 'flying' this preseason. Well almost...

https://www.afl.com.au/video/881454/grundy-phillips-hit-the-roof-at-adelaide-oval?videoId=881454&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1678665600001&tagNames=ProgramType:AFL Digital

(p.s 🙋‍♂️ anyone else who went a bit wobbly inside watching this...)

5 hours ago, Timothy Reddan-A'Blew said:

So, he really is 'flying' this preseason. Well almost...

https://www.afl.com.au/video/881454/grundy-phillips-hit-the-roof-at-adelaide-oval?videoId=881454&modal=true&type=video&publishFrom=1678665600001&tagNames=ProgramType:AFL Digital

(p.s 🙋‍♂️ anyone else who went a bit wobbly inside watching this...)

Thanks for the sweaty palms!

 

 

He is a definite upgrade on Tommy Toothless but that shouldn’t surprise based on what we are paying him.

I still think he is underdone after an injury ruined 2022 and if he stays injury free - he will just get better and better. His [censored] just looks too big for what his body wants to do.

Exciting times!

4 hours ago, Demonland said:

 

Is that Unicorn a bit of a cheeky slap to Jackson? Pretty sure the Dees Marketing Dept. correspondence had a couple of 'Jackson is a Unicorn' banter over the last few years. Not sure they have called Grundy one previously... hmmmmm

On 3/2/2023 at 7:59 AM, Jaded No More said:

Absolutely.

If you have a 7 foot Gawn standing up forward, all of a sudden you need to always have an extra body near by. That means someone like Fritsch, who is by far our best forward, is harder to double team.

Gawn is not the best kick, but he is an elite mark. You would worry having him behind the ball or in front of it. It's why club spend so much time trying to hit him at every contest. They know it's basically impossible to stop him for 100% of the game.

Now add in Grundy, who at his peak was as good as Gawn (well I don't think he was, but some do), and suddenly you have to plan to play 2 rucks, or concede the centre square ruck contests, or plan for an additional tall defender to man one of Gawn or Grundy when they are resting forward. 

Most clubs don't want to carry an extra tall into games unless that tall is a really good player. Otherwise they are often a liability and rob you for additional mid rotations which are so important in today's two way defensive game. 

I think Max has been working really hard on his goal kicking abilities.

He was not my choice of players to be kicking for the 21 minor premiership against cats but has since been a lot better.

BUMP

Are the doubters still doubters?

Fabulous game Brodie, and just when we needed it, with Maxamillion out.

And just to add a sweet touch of schadenfreude Collingwood are struggling to find any ruckman at present.

Edited April 4, 20232 yr by monoccular

2 minutes ago, monoccular said:

BUMP

Are the doubters still doubters?

Fabulous game Brodie, and just when we needed it, with Maxamillion out.

And just to add a sweet touch of schadenfreude Collingwood are struggling to find any ruckman at present.

Thought he was better without Max, being able to run freely around the ground. He runs and links up so beautifully and looked free like a horse happily galloping in a paddock. 

13 minutes ago, monoccular said:

BUMP

Are the doubters still doubters?

Fabulous game Brodie, and just when we needed it, with Maxamillion out.

And just to add a sweet touch of schadenfreude Collingwood are struggling to find any ruckman at present.

Obviously without Max, and being the sole ruckman, Grundy was terrific playing as a follower. But I don't think we planned to get Grundy as insurance for Max.

After watching the full replay today, I still didn't think his tapwork was dominant against a D-Grader in Ladhams. Grundy was winning the taps and the Swans were winning the clearances. He was better in the 2nd half when Sparrow was in the guts.

And I still have doubts when Max returns about his effectiveness as a resting forward. A forward line comprising BBB and either Gawn/Grundy is too top heavy. And it would be worse if T Mac returns. 

JVR and Petty were able to apply pressure at ground level, which was lacking last year.

I'd wait till the season pans out before passing judgement.

Slightly off topic, I happened to listen to a podcast with Brayden Maynard today and he credited Brodie for turning the culture around at the pies. It was a very strong endorsement.

He’s a good person by the sounds of it and I’m excited to see what we can achieve over the next few years. Particularly with the way he was let go at the pies

 

Collingwood ruck crisis and are desperate for a ruckman. Wants rules changed to benefit them. Too bad.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/mcrae-wants-mid-season-trades-as-pies-search-for-answers-to-ruck-crisis-20230403-p5cxos.html

Edited April 4, 20232 yr by John Crow Batty

5 minutes ago, John Crow Batty said:

Collingwood ruck crisis and are desperate for a ruckman. Wants rules changed to benefit them. Too bad.

https://www.theage.com.au/sport/afl/mcrae-wants-mid-season-trades-as-pies-search-for-answers-to-ruck-crisis-20230403-p5cxos.html

Cry me a river, and manage your list.

Cameron 8-10 weeks, probably back after the bye. Will make KBW interesting - "knees-up" Cox will be in for a workout.

Just had a look at Big Footy and the Colonwood site is in melt down. They are eating each other up with Grundy. They call us  ‘Dreamons’ and Grundy, Soy Boy. 🤣😂

Enjoy your beers for breakfast Colonwood boys. 

Maybe Grundy will feel generous and help them out… they are still paying him after all

 

1 hour ago, Demonsterative said:

Just had a look at Big Footy and the Colonwood site is in melt down. They are eating each other up with Grundy. They call…Grundy, Soy Boy. 🤣😂

So we’re enjoying cordon bleu and nouveau cuisine in the ruck and they’d be lucky for stale crusts and potable water.

Edited April 4, 20232 yr by Tarax Club
McFly’s jailbreak not break the glass!

5 weeks in now and we are starting to get a clear picture on what Grundy is as a player for us.

Did Collingwood sell us a lemon?

David King in particular has shown some vision of Brodie a few times this season that isn't up to the standard we require.

I'm worried.

Just now, Household Demon said:

5 weeks in now and we are starting to get a clear picture on what Grundy is as a player for us.

Did Collingwood sell us a lemon?

David King in particular has shown some vision of Brodie a few times this season that isn't up to the standard we require.

I'm worried.

He's probably been one of our better players