Sorry if this has been discussed but can someone please enlighten me as to what on earth has happened to Rivers ?? 

5 minutes ago, Micksdemons said:

Sorry if this has been discussed but can someone please enlighten me as to what on earth has happened to Rivers ?? 

His form this year has been poor.  And when Salem returned someone had to go out and it was Rivers.  Also, during a Casey game a commentator (Libby Birch, I think) said he was at Casey to improve his kicking.  I've not seen any other info about him.

15 minutes ago, Micksdemons said:

Sorry if this has been discussed but can someone please enlighten me as to what on earth has happened to Rivers ?? 

He’s a third year player and development isn’t linear. I think he will be a good player but guys get dropped. Especially when you play for a club expecting to win every week.

12 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

His form this year has been poor.  And when Salem returned someone had to go out and it was Rivers.  Also, during a Casey game a commentator (Libby Birch, I think) said he was at Casey to improve his kicking.  I've not seen any other info about him.

Not just Salem's return.

Bowey coming in and grabbing his chance was an issue also.

Bowey's elite kicking and decision-making ability puts him ahead of Rivers for now in defence.

1 minute ago, Demon17 said:

Not just Salem's return.

Bowey coming in and grabbing his chance was an issue also.

Bowey's elite kicking and decision-making ability puts him ahead of Rivers for now in defence.

Agree with the precise kicking, but Riv's willingness to put his head in a hole is superior to Bowey's.

4 minutes ago, Demon17 said:

Not just Salem's return.

Bowey coming in and grabbing his chance was an issue also.

Bowey's elite kicking and decision-making ability puts him ahead of Rivers for now in defence.

Bowey grabbed his spot last year alongside Rivers.  I don't think Bowey cost Rivers his spot.

Bowey's kicking supports the view that Rivers went back to Casey to improve his.

4 minutes ago, dee-tox said:

Agree with the precise kicking, but Riv's willingness to put his head in a hole is superior to Bowey's.

It is about roles.  Gus performs that part of Rivers' role.  So when Salem returned Rivers was the one to miss out.

10 hours ago, Docs Demons said:

I don't think BB is the sole tall forward. Have a look at the side. Gawn and Jacko will be moving through the forward line and they ain't small.

OK, sole tall forward not including the resting ruck.

Last year our preferred line up was two tall forwards (Brown and TMac) alongside the two rucks (Gawn and Jackson).

27 minutes ago, Micksdemons said:

Sorry if this has been discussed but can someone please enlighten me as to what on earth has happened to Rivers ?? 

Just now, Lucifers Hero said:

Bowey grabbed his spot last year alongside Rivers.  I don't think Bowey cost Rivers his spot.

Bowey's kicking supports the view that Rivers went back to Casey to improve his.

Agree with @Lucifers Hero, it's not Bowey.

It's Brayshaw, isn't it? Salem went down, we sent Brayshaw back to cover his spot, it turned out Brayshaw was excellent across half-back whilst Jordon has been great on a wing, and Rivers' form wasn't stellar, so when Salem returned Brayshaw held him out.

My take on Ben Brown.

Is he is great form? No.

Will he be dropped if he has a poor game stats wise this week. No

Is his form over the last 5-6 games related to being fatigued. Yes, the eyes suggest that is the case.

He was more mobile and energised against the lions, but noticeablely sluggish in the other games, including last week. For example, he struggled to jump in those games.

To be honest any assessment of his game based on stats is next to useless. 

Have people not been listening to goody over the last few years? 

Goody has made it crystal clear that in terms of the expectations on performance there are three fundamentals - selflessness, team first and role execution.

Those are the club's KPIs.

So, judging a player on numbers is all well and good but goody has said literally dozens of times that players are not judged on them.

Sure you could dismiss that as spin, but then you have posters periodically calling for, say kozzie or spargo  to be dropped because they have had mutuple weeks in a row with single figure disposals and/or no goals.

Thankfully such calls are less frequent now, because people now better understand that spargs and kozzie's role is pressure - and that is visible.

So, I try to assess performance on tbe metrics the club uses.

Of course, we don't know exactly what Brown's role is. 

But we can have a pretty good guess (to be clear this a guess, so please don't come back with a how would you know spiel)

First and foremost, his role is to be involved in aerial contests - up forward and up the ground. These contest invariably imvve big packs of talls, including our talls.

The number one priority is bringing the ball to ground. A mark, either up forward or on tbe hbf is a total bonus. 

The next part of his role is the incredible up and down the ground running he dies. This is critical on a number of fronts. It means, foe example that May's standard 60 metre kick out goes to a pack that includes at least two of our talls.

Again, the key here is that the opposition don't mark it. If we can't  mark it, our mids and defenders know where it will likely hit the ground (watch how brown palms it forward if he can't mark it) and win the resuting ground ball.

The running he does also means he can create one on ones on the wing for a bail out kick, or a long searching lead from the 50 yp to the wing, or turn us opponent  around and runs back inside 50.

But his running also messes with the opposition defensive system. On a basic level, if his direct opponent, always a big, has to go with him and if he is not as fit, may blow up.

But Brown's run also stretches the defence and messes with their structure and zone.

For example they need to decide whether his opponent goes with him up the ground, or as we usually do stay inside 50.

If they go with him we have forced Brown's opponent to go one on one with him. And then they also have one less defender inside 50, which messes with their ability to set up an effective defensive zone

If they dont go with him, his opponent has to make sure they hand off to a teamate when he goes up the ground, and there needs to be another handoff as he runs back towards our goal.

All game. Up and down the ground. And all game the opposition have to sort out how to cover him.

For context, brown is in the all tome top 10 of distance converd in a game (sculls heads the list). That was whilst he was at the roos. And no doubt is a key reason why we recruited  him. Brown is regularly, with langdon and nibbler, in our top 3 distance covered in a game.

And that's it. If he does all that to goody's satisfaction he has executed his role. And could do so without recording a single disposal. 

And playing rhat role is also completely team first and selfless. Which is Goody's non negotiable 

It's also a role that is super impacted by fatigue.

So what about goals you might ask. Surely a kpi of a forward is to kick goals. For fans maybe, but not goody.

Again, as Goody has pointed out he doesn't judge individual forwards on the goals they kick. They are part of a collective. Which was partly his point when he said the forward line had had 60 scoring shots in the last two games.

Brown is part of that forward line. 

But if you do want to judge him on goals, well I'm not sure why tbe fact he kicked two last week seems not to register - or worse are perhaps discounted because one was a crumb and the other right at tbe end of the game.

BB will get fresher and fresher and will remain a critical cog in tbe machine.

11 hours ago, BAMF said:

Tmac is out for another 10 weeks. He wasn't really in top form at the time of injury either. 

Thought T Mac was in terrific form at the time of injury BAMF, 11 goals in his last 4 games.

25 minutes ago, binman said:

 

For context, brown is in the all tome top 10 of distance converd in a game (sculls heads the list). That was whilst he was at the roos. And no doubt is a key reason why we recruited  him. Brown is regularly, with langdon and nibbler, in our top 3 distance covered in a game.

This is a good little nugget.

Brown helps us ‘move the chains’ (NFL term around moving up the ground instead of going for the game breaking pass) and that is one of the most valuable roles in footy these days. It requires so much unrewarded and unrewardable running from TMac and now Brown.

He had a couple of lamentable contests and his marking can improve but let’s not dismiss value so easily.

49 minutes ago, binman said:

My take on Ben Brown.

Come on mate. Lots of excuses there for a player out of form.

To imply his job is to make sure no one, including himself, marks it, to run away from goals to confuse people and he doesn't even have to kick goals is pretty disingenuous.

And to use Goody's pressers as evidence is flimsy at best. We've all seen enough of his pressers now to know he plays a straight bat to defend his players.

I don't doubt he runs lots, all our players do, I don't think anyone has a problem with his running efforts do they? I've not seen that brought up as a criticism, though may have missed it of course. The criticisms are his leading has all but disappeared, his pressure is non-existent, his contested marking (even bringing the ball to ground) is well down on what it should be, he's burned teammates a few times and he's not hitting the scoreboard consistently.

You talk of the important aspects of our forward half. We would agree a big part of that is pressure and 'bringing the ball to ground' correct?

This season he averages:

0.6 tackles (below average)
0.3 tackles inside 50 (below average)
6.1 pressure acts (below average)
3.5 marks (below average)
1.8 marks inside 50 (average)
0.9 contested marks (below average)
1 marks on lead (below average)
1.4 forward 50 ground ball gets
0.3 goal assists (below average)

Not sure if you can share where you got the distance covered details from either? Would be great if you could share. From what I found on the AFL app (it only lists the top 5 players):

v Crows - Not in the top 5 players
v Lions - Not in the top 5 players, and not in our top 3
v Pies - Not in the top 5 players
v Swans - Not in the top 5 players
v Dockers - Not in the top 5 players
v Roos - Not in the top 5 players

That's as far back as I bothered going.

I'm wanting to back him in to find form as I think we are going to REALLY need him come finals, but my question is - If he doesn't show enough this week to suggest he's finding form well enough at AFL level, is a couple of weeks at VFL level the better way to get him into form?

3 hours ago, Micksdemons said:

Sorry if this has been discussed but can someone please enlighten me as to what on earth has happened to Rivers ?? 

 

3 hours ago, Lucifers Hero said:

His form this year has been poor.  And when Salem returned someone had to go out and it was Rivers.  Also, during a Casey game a commentator (Libby Birch, I think) said he was at Casey to improve his kicking.  I've not seen any other info about him.

 

3 hours ago, rpfc said:

He’s a third year player and development isn’t linear. I think he will be a good player but guys get dropped. Especially when you play for a club expecting to win every week.

I also think the knee injury he picked up in the first practice game has been an issue.

A more seasoned player can maybe deal with these things better but his mobility has suffered and along with that so has his form.

 

24 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Come on mate. Lots of excuses there for a player out of form.

To imply his job is to make sure no one, including himself, marks it, to run away from goals to confuse people and he doesn't even have to kick goals is pretty disingenuous.

And to use Goody's pressers as evidence is flimsy at best. We've all seen enough of his pressers now to know he plays a straight bat to defend his players.

I don't doubt he runs lots, all our players do, I don't think anyone has a problem with his running efforts do they? I've not seen that brought up as a criticism, though may have missed it of course. The criticisms are his leading has all but disappeared, his pressure is non-existent, his contested marking (even bringing the ball to ground) is well down on what it should be, he's burned teammates a few times and he's not hitting the scoreboard consistently.

You talk of the important aspects of our forward half. We would agree a big part of that is pressure and 'bringing the ball to ground' correct?

This season he averages:

0.6 tackles (below average)
0.3 tackles inside 50 (below average)
6.1 pressure acts (below average)
3.5 marks (below average)
1.8 marks inside 50 (average)
0.9 contested marks (below average)
1 marks on lead (below average)
1.4 forward 50 ground ball gets
0.3 goal assists (below average)

Not sure if you can share where you got the distance covered details from either? Would be great if you could share. From what I found on the AFL app (it only lists the top 5 players):

v Crows - Not in the top 5 players
v Lions - Not in the top 5 players, and not in our top 3
v Pies - Not in the top 5 players
v Swans - Not in the top 5 players
v Dockers - Not in the top 5 players
v Roos - Not in the top 5 players

That's as far back as I bothered going.

I'm wanting to back him in to find form as I think we are going to REALLY need him come finals, but my question is - If he doesn't show enough this week to suggest he's finding form well enough at AFL level, is a couple of weeks at VFL level the better way to get him into form?

Interesting reading both your and Binman's take on BB

I need to start off by saying I've never been a huge fan but I do agree that he can be a very important part of our overall team structure 

Personally I think the biggest thing that's changed for BB is he just doesn't seem to draw the free kicks he used to receive. If you have a look at his highlights packages during the years when he was kicking 60 odd goals (2017,18,19) he would consistently get free kicks when defenders blocked his run at the ball or chopped his arms - for some reason that doesn't seem to be happening anymore. If you watch closely opposition defenders double team him and effectively impede his run to the drop zone - he doesn't have the physical strength to overcome this. He also has his arms chopped consistently which the umpires seem to allow now

In 2018 he got 48 frees , 2019 44 frees, last year 6, this year 11. Yes he has played fewer games than 2018/19 but the ratio per game is way down 

It is another factor that is reducing his impact imo  

Edited July 7, 20222 yr by Sydee

15 hours ago, Jontee said:

I know it has already been said but Chandler with 5 goals and a bucket of possessions doesnt even make it as an emergency

Hope jacko and Gawn are fully fit....

The emergencies aren't picked because they are the 23rd to 26th next best available players. There's always a mix to cover as best as possible talls, smalls, defenders, forwards and midfielders. I expect Chandler misses out because we've already got three players in the team with similar roles and of a similar size in Bedford, Pickett and Spargo. The others selected as emergencies (Weideman, Tomlinson, Melksham and Hunt) provide far more flexibility. If there are no late changes, I would like Hunt as the sub, unless there is some doubt about the fitness of Gawn or Jackson, in which case Weideman or Tomlinson would be a better option.  

1 minute ago, Sydee said:

Interesting reading both your and Binman's take on BB

I need to start off by saying I've never been a huge fan but I do agree that he can be a very important part of our overall team structure 

Personally I think the biggest thing that's changed for BB is he just doesn't seem to draw the free kicks he used to receive. If you have a look at his highlights packages during the years when he was kicking 60 odd goals (2017,18,19) he would consistently get free kicks when defenders blocked his run at the ball or chopped his arms - for some reason that doesn't seem to be happening anymore. If you watch closely opposition defenders double team him and effectively impede his run to the drop zone - he doesn't have the physical strength to overcome this. He also has his arms chopped consistently which the umpires seem to allow now

In 2018 he got 48 frees , 2019 44 frees, last year 6, this year 11. Yes he has played fewer games than 2018/19 but the ratio per game is way down 

It is another factor that reducing his impact imo  

It's not all bad news if Brown is not getting marks or free kicks because he's being double teamed. It means someone on our side is freed up. And we should be able to exploit that. Perhaps we already are...and that may be why Brown is doing his job even if he's not kicking goals himself.

2 minutes ago, Sydee said:

Interesting reading both your and Binman's take on BB

I need to start off by saying I've never been a huge fan but I do agree that he can be a very important part of our overall team structure 

Personally I think the biggest thing that's changed for BB is he just doesn't seem to draw the free kicks he used to receive. If you have a look at his highlights packages during the years when he was kicking 60 odd goals (2017,18,19) he would consistently get free kicks when defenders blocked his run at the ball or chopped his arms - for some reason that doesn't seem to be happening anymore. If you watch closely opposition defenders double team him and effectively impede his run to the drop zone - he doesn't have the physical strength to overcome this. He also has his arms chopped consistently which the umpires seem to allow now

In 2018 he got 48 frees , 2019 44 frees, last year 6, this year 11. Yes he has played fewer games than 2018/19 but the ratio per game is way down 

It is another factor that reducing his impact imo  

To be fair to Brown, I think that would be due to the different game styles he's been asked to play between North and MFC. Was much more a leading player at North, that's how they got it to him, whereas with us it's more short leads and long kick contests. Maybe his form is partly due to him 'over correcting' in that contested marking situation style? The games I've gone to this year I've watched our forwards closely, and the lack of movement and leading has been noticeable. I was blaming the mids for bombing it all the time in the first couple of weeks before I started going to games, and then I noticed how much the share of the blame should be on the forwards as well.

So while I agree he's getting less frees, I think the reason behind it is the different style of play between teams, and I don't reckon anyone is expecting him to kick 60 a year for us.

Regarding Ben Brown.  I agree he is down at the moment, and gets outmarked and moved out of the way too easily, but he does quite a few intangibles that aren't obvious in the play or on the stats sheets but I'm sure the coaches would value it which is why he continues to play.  Below is a few grabs form Petracca's first goal.  You can see he is being held by Doedee who is also trying to move him under the ball so O'Brien can take a simple intercept mark.  Ben manages to get an arm free and spoil the mark, the ball lands in Trac's lap and results in an easy goal.  Ben creates this type of contest multiple times per game as well as any tall forward we have available at this stage, which is why I think (IMVHO) he continues to get selected despite a relatively dry run of goals himself.  He allows our superb fleet of smalls to go to work by creating that contest.

4 minutes ago, BigFez said:

Regarding Ben Brown.  I agree he is down at the moment, and gets outmarked and moved out of the way too easily, but he does quite a few intangibles that aren't obvious in the play or on the stats sheets but I'm sure the coaches would value it which is why he continues to play.  Below is a few grabs form Petracca's first goal.  You can see he is being held by Doedee who is also trying to move him under the ball so O'Brien can take a simple intercept mark.  Ben manages to get an arm free and spoil the mark, the ball lands in Trac's lap and results in an easy goal.  Ben creates this type of contest multiple times per game as well as any tall forward we have available at this stage, which is why I think (IMVHO) he continues to get selected despite a relatively dry run of goals himself.  He allows our superb fleet of smalls to go to work by creating that contest.

Watch Hawkins or Cameron get a free for this exact same thing 

MFCVM.

2 hours ago, binman said:

My take on Ben Brown.

Is he is great form? No.

Will he be dropped if he has a poor game stats wise this week. No

Is his form over the last 5-6 games related to being fatigued. Yes, the eyes suggest that is the case.

He was more mobile and energised against the lions, but noticeablely sluggish in the other games, including last week. For example, he struggled to jump in those games.

To be honest any assessment of his game based on stats is next to useless. 

Have people not been listening to goody over the last few years? 

Goody has made it crystal clear that in terms of the expectations on performance there are three fundamentals - selflessness, team first and role execution.

Those are the club's KPIs.

So, judging a player on numbers is all well and good but goody has said literally dozens of times that players are not judged on them.

Sure you could dismiss that as spin, but then you have posters periodically calling for, say kozzie or spargo  to be dropped because they have had mutuple weeks in a row with single figure disposals and/or no goals.

Thankfully such calls are less frequent now, because people now better understand that spargs and kozzie's role is pressure - and that is visible.

So, I try to assess performance on tbe metrics the club uses.

Of course, we don't know exactly what Brown's role is. 

But we can have a pretty good guess (to be clear this a guess, so please don't come back with a how would you know spiel)

First and foremost, his role is to be involved in aerial contests - up forward and up the ground. These contest invariably imvve big packs of talls, including our talls.

The number one priority is bringing the ball to ground. A mark, either up forward or on tbe hbf is a total bonus. 

The next part of his role is the incredible up and down the ground running he dies. This is critical on a number of fronts. It means, foe example that May's standard 60 metre kick out goes to a pack that includes at least two of our talls.

Again, the key here is that the opposition don't mark it. If we can't  mark it, our mids and defenders know where it will likely hit the ground (watch how brown palms it forward if he can't mark it) and win the resuting ground ball.

The running he does also means he can create one on ones on the wing for a bail out kick, or a long searching lead from the 50 yp to the wing, or turn us opponent  around and runs back inside 50.

But his running also messes with the opposition defensive system. On a basic level, if his direct opponent, always a big, has to go with him and if he is not as fit, may blow up.

But Brown's run also stretches the defence and messes with their structure and zone.

For example they need to decide whether his opponent goes with him up the ground, or as we usually do stay inside 50.

If they go with him we have forced Brown's opponent to go one on one with him. And then they also have one less defender inside 50, which messes with their ability to set up an effective defensive zone

If they dont go with him, his opponent has to make sure they hand off to a teamate when he goes up the ground, and there needs to be another handoff as he runs back towards our goal.

All game. Up and down the ground. And all game the opposition have to sort out how to cover him.

For context, brown is in the all tome top 10 of distance converd in a game (sculls heads the list). That was whilst he was at the roos. And no doubt is a key reason why we recruited  him. Brown is regularly, with langdon and nibbler, in our top 3 distance covered in a game.

And that's it. If he does all that to goody's satisfaction he has executed his role. And could do so without recording a single disposal. 

And playing rhat role is also completely team first and selfless. Which is Goody's non negotiable 

It's also a role that is super impacted by fatigue.

So what about goals you might ask. Surely a kpi of a forward is to kick goals. For fans maybe, but not goody.

Again, as Goody has pointed out he doesn't judge individual forwards on the goals they kick. They are part of a collective. Which was partly his point when he said the forward line had had 60 scoring shots in the last two games.

Brown is part of that forward line. 

But if you do want to judge him on goals, well I'm not sure why tbe fact he kicked two last week seems not to register - or worse are perhaps discounted because one was a crumb and the other right at tbe end of the game.

BB will get fresher and fresher and will remain a critical cog in tbe machine.

Thanks for your considered and logical analysis bin! 

There is much to be said for understanding the game, as opposed to a superficial reading of statistics.

46 minutes ago, BigFez said:

Regarding Ben Brown.  I agree he is down at the moment, and gets outmarked and moved out of the way too easily, but he does quite a few intangibles that aren't obvious in the play or on the stats sheets but I'm sure the coaches would value it which is why he continues to play.  Below is a few grabs form Petracca's first goal.  You can see he is being held by Doedee who is also trying to move him under the ball so O'Brien can take a simple intercept mark.  Ben manages to get an arm free and spoil the mark, the ball lands in Trac's lap and results in an easy goal.  Ben creates this type of contest multiple times per game as well as any tall forward we have available at this stage, which is why I think (IMVHO) he continues to get selected despite a relatively dry run of goals himself.  He allows our superb fleet of smalls to go to work by creating that contest.

Spot on. He does that sort of work mutiple times a game.

Goody doesn't mind which player scores, just that one does. They are a collective.

In that example it is trac, but it doesn't happen without Brown's involvement. Didn't get a stat for it, but Brown played his role and because he did we scored.

Role execution and selflessness (for instance no Hollywood attempt at a screamer).

The key point is he continues to be selected.

That is sufficient evidence for me that he is executing his role to goody's satisfaction.

Tonight's game is a legitimate blockbuster. We are primed and will be desperate to make a statement.

If his performance was as poor as some are suggestingd, does anyone seriously think goody would select him for this game? When he had two fit forwards in weed and m brown (who both played alright in tbe previous match) he could select instead?

Surely goody has earned a bit more credit than that to suggest he is willing to play an under performing player in the hope he will suddenly perform well or he could play him back into form.

If goody is ok with bb's performance, im ok with his performance.

Edited July 7, 20222 yr by binman

4 minutes ago, binman said:

Surely goody has earned a bit more credit than that to suggest he is willing to play an under performing player in the hope he will suddenly perform well or he could play him back into form.

 

2 hours ago, binman said:

Is he is great form? No.

Is his form over the last 5-6 games related to being fatigued. Yes, the eyes suggest that is the case.

Hang on. So do you think he's not in form and fatigued, or do you think he's not under performing and is in form?

31 minutes ago, binman said:

Spot on. He does that sort of work mutiple times a game.

Goody doesn't mind which player scores, just that one does. They are a collective.

In that example it is trac, but it doesn't happen without Brown's involvement. Didn't get a stat for it, but Brown played his role and because he did we scored.

Role execution and selflessness (for instance no Hollywood attempt at a screamer).

The key point is he continues to be selected.

That is sufficient evidence for me that he is executing his role to goody's satisfaction.

Tonight's game is a legitimate blockbuster. We are primed and will be desperate to make a statement.

If his performance was as poor as some are suggestingd, does anyone seriously think goody would select him for this game? When he had two fit forwards in weed and m brown (who both played alright in tbe previous match) he could select instead?

Surely goody has earned a bit more credit than that to suggest he is willing to play an under performing player in the hope he will suddenly perform well or he could play him back into form.

If goody is ok with bb's performance, im ok with his performance.

Spot on Binman, couldn’t agree more. 

27 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

 

Hang on. So do you think he's not in form and fatigued, or do you think he's not under performing and is in form?

Childish gotcha rubbish nev.

But, if you are going to bother using quotes from two different posts of mine to make some sort of point, at least quote me correctly.

I did not say he is not in form.

In the very quote you picked, I said he was not in GREAT form.

Please don't bother rebutting, but they are two different things.

So, I could say something like Brown is in form, but not great form.

The point I  making is his form is at a level that his coach deems acceptable.

You don't think he us performing at the required level, which is fine.

No disrespect intended, but I'll go with the premiership coach on this one.