The very, very contentious 50 for Dissent Rule

[chookrat 4,247]

I think the umpire respect rule is good for the game and by the end of the season we won't even be talking about it.

Personally I don't like seeing our players complain to the umpires and would much prefer they channel their frustration into playing tougher.

[sue 9,101]

9 minutes ago, Macca said:

Very few talk that way though ... and you are certainly not one of those people

I look forward to your contributions on the game day thread where you can highlight all the frees that the opposition should get and all the lucky frees that we get

So go to it

You are getting a bit rude with people who disagree with you about the issue of this thread.  And  you are increasingly misinterpreting what people say or attributing to them views they don't have.

How do you know that I am "certainly not one of those people"?    You don't sit next to me when watching a match.  I don't even read the match day thread once a match starts as a firm matter of policy, let alone post there, so you won't be able to find any such posts by me.  I doubt you post there every time we get away with something, nor that I will get an apology from you.

 

[Pates 9,660]

I think what would be a much better system is that outright abuse (mouthing off directly at the umpire) get paid on the field preferably with a 25-30m penalty, and dissent (arms up etc) be a fine directly to the player, and make the fine a % of the players match fee rather than a set price. 

The thing that bothers me the most is that the 50m penalty is the HIGHEST penalty on the field. Late hits, thuggish behaviour, and violent acts are on the same level as a player putting their arms up in frustration. That doesn’t make sense to me. 

[Ethan Tremblay 30,856]

10 hours ago, Kit Walker said:

Pretty much all of them really:

Cricket - lbw is literally predicting what's going to happen next

Soccer - passive/active offside, whether a foul is careless/reckless/dangerous

Union - good luck trying to work out anything to do with scrums!

Getting rid of all subjectivity is impossible. Just make it clearer what the parameters are, and don't bring cards/sin bins into elite footy...

These aren’t emotionally subjective though. At the present, the umpire decides if the player raised their arms in a demonstrable way. A player raising their arms has to be a free or not, it can’t come down to how the umpire “feels”. Totally different to the subjectivity of a cricket umpire calling an lbw… 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Ethan Tremblay

[Ethan Tremblay 30,856]

25 minutes ago, chookrat said:

I think the umpire respect rule is good for the game and by the end of the season we won't even be talking about it.

That’s only because the AFL will end up silencing the supporters as well. Heil Gil. 

[dimmy 1,307]

I am confused because :

• At what stage is showing extreme " demonstracy" . Lie dropiing arms and shaking head (whilst being silent) is going to be capital offence soon
• At the same time someone going off their nut is not helping the game. Kick them off for 5 minutes with no interchange .The issue would be solved immediately !!

[Redleg 40,889]

36 minutes ago, chookrat said:

I think the umpire respect rule is good for the game and by the end of the season we won't even be talking about it.

Not according to 20 year VAFA umpire Brian Clarke, who says it is making it much harder for he and his fellow umpires and leading to more crowd anger. Veteran former  AFL Umpire Darren Goldspink agrees with him.

If they follow the AFL on this in junior footy, more morons will attack/abuse the umpires and cause even more problems.

People need to understand that everyone agrees with umpires being treated respectfully.

It is the heavy handed approach of the AFL that is the issue here.

Edited April 20, 2022 by Redleg

[Macca 16,958]

24 minutes ago, sue said:

You are getting a bit rude with people who disagree with you about the issue of this thread.  And  you are increasingly misinterpreting what people say or attributing to them views they don't have.

How do you know that I am "certainly not one of those people"?    You don't sit next to me when watching a match.  I don't even read the match day thread once a match starts as a firm matter of policy, let alone post there, so you won't be able to find any such posts by me.  I doubt you post there every time we get away with something, nor that I will get an apology from you.

 

No, it's you that is picking the fight and it's your rudeness that I'm reacting to

Don't confuse a straight-forward mannerism with ill manners.  You continually want to categorise people like me all because we might have a completely different point of view

As I said to you yesterday, play the ball and not the man.  Argue the facts and stop blaming the umpires. 

As an example, you're not going into bat against umpire abuse ... and you should be.  Especially if you profess to be a fair-minded person

Hey, your footy team will be able to overcome a few questionable decisions.  It's all good

[Wodjathefirst 2,632]

I hear that the AFL stance is that no matter how exasperated a player may get for whatever reason, even a gesture of putting his arms out in frustration will not be tolerated and the team will be penalised. Wow!

I just wonder if there is any correlation of signs of frustration being expressed by players being a reaction to an overtly poor decision that at times are made by an umpire?  It does happen! I think overall they do a good job but on occasions they do stuff up. As it stands, umpires are totally unaccountable for their stuff ups, however teams potentially can and will lose games in the future due to an umpire clearly getting it wrong and a player in the heat of the moment showing ‘reasonable understandable frustration ’ considering the circumstances as opposed to ‘clearly dissenting frustration’.  How dare he show such disrespect! 

So I’m not sure how this leads to the AFL’s perception that the game will now be officiated in a fair and equal manner.

Players of course will learn not to react so as to not penalise their team.  What will the supporters learn? I think they will go nuts venting their displeasure at the umpires even more than they did before.  It certainly appears that way in the games that I’ve attended this year.

Please don’t get me wrong.  If a player shows real dissent, eg abusing the umpire, being overtly rude even with body gestures, penalise him . However my thought process at the games I’ve attended has been along the lines of ‘get real and toughen up a little you flouro coloured cream puffs’ which I know is not appropriate!

What I’m trying to say is that it is so obvious that supporters on both sides of the fence having been increasingly venting about umpires.  
Mission being accomplished to make us (as fans) more respectful of umpires? I don’t think so.  I’m not sure how this will translate down to the grassroots comps.  I’ll  let others that are smarter than me analyse that.

What next? Tongue in cheek, will they consider  penalising teams if spectators show overt disrespect/ resentment/ dissent to umpiring decisions.  On the bright side I think teams like Collingwood, Richmond, Port and West Coast and Essendon may potentially be impacted more than most 🤭

 

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Wodjathefirst
Missed a few teams !

[Lord Nev 13,512]

10 minutes ago, Wodjathefirst said:

As it stands, umpires are totally unaccountable for their stuff ups

This is incorrect.

All 116 AFL umpires are on one-year performance-based contract, that like players, end on October 31.  The AFL Umpiring Department is currently working through a list management process to determine who will be offered a new 2020 contract and who won’t.  This year there were a number of umpires “put under review” towards the end of the season.  For many it was the first indication that their time on an AFL umpire list (field, boundary or goal) might be tenuous.

Like AFL Clubs the AFL has an umpire’s list manager who reviews the performance of all our umpires and looks to the state league competitions to see who is coming through the ranks.  The list manager is then responsible for the transition process of the list ready for the October 31 deadline when the lists need to be lodged and those who will not be offered a contract need to review their circumstances.  Some will retire, some will go back to state leagues to mentor young umpires through the system whilst a few will join the coaching ranks and use their skills and expertise that way.

https://aflua.com.au/umpires-and-players-tread-the-same-path/

 

AFL umpires’ coach Hayden Kennedy runs the meeting, with input from assistants Michael Vozzo, Bryan Sheehan and Michael Jennings, who have graded each game and will meet individually over the first part of the week with every umpire. Analyst Briana Harvey and AFL national umpiring director Wayne Campbell also sit in. 

Using software from Champion Data, every on-field decision for each umpire is charted by time, zone, the players involved, whether it was correct, missed or unwarranted, what sort of contest it was, the reason for the decision (or non-decision) and with a comment from the coach.

Each centre bounce is also graded as follows: straight, offline, badly offline, recalled.

It is a painstaking but necessary process, with every umpire assessed for about three minutes each. Everything gets noticed – even the fact one umpire went an entire match without taking a bounce.

https://www.afl.com.au/news/444965/umpire-insider-reviewing-the-reviewers

 

Edited April 20, 2022 by Lord Nev

[sue 9,101]

7 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

A quick search shows your voluminous posting about umpires - mostly in the 'NON-MFC Games' threads, where you not only consistently complain about decisions but have also quite often accused them of being biased.

Even stretching it to suggest the umpires don't know or read the rules.

You wouldn't be on your lonesome with complaining about umpiring, but the sheer amount of posts you've made about them flies against your assertion here that you're completely innocent of such things.

What I said was that Macca had made assertions about me that were wrong.  Read the original posts rather than  researching into old posts that are irrelevant to the unwarranted and wrong assumptions he made about me.  

As a mater of fact I often say to my spouse: "lucky we got away with one there".  But since I neither post in the MFC game day thread, nor sit next to Macca, I  found the assumptions he made in his post and wording a bit rude.  Surely we can disagree on the issue of this thread without doing so.  I don't see that I have ever been rude to him or categorised him in any way.  If I have I will apologise.

But to change the subject to where you have moved it to: I have never claimed I haven't posted negative things about umpiring decisions.    

Yes, I do post in non-MFC games threads about umpiring decisions. At least there I am not biased by team loyalties.   And sometimes umpires do not appear to have read the rules when they get things blatantly wrong, though to be fair to them the rules are so badly written/interpreted that Solomon wouldn't be able to apply them without generating controversy. I don't think discussing/whinging/whatever about umpiring decision should be beyond the pale just because it sometimes gets emotional. 

To be clear, I think the umpires have an extremely difficult job. They deserve more respect than they get, and a lot more from the AFL.  But I  don't think the new 'respect'  rules/interpretions are the solution to the lack of junior umpires.  Nor do I think all reactions by players to decisions (or non-decisions which seem to be being ignored) amount to disrespect.  Funnily enough I respect you and Macca even though I am expressing disagreement with you on this issue.

And I fear that it may be impossible, especially given the incompetent way they have been introduced, for the 'respect' rules to be consistently applied, even by year's end, leading to more frustration by players and spectators.  I hope a reasonable position will be arrived at. Time will tell. 

[Wodjathefirst 2,632]

4 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

This is incorrect.

All 116 AFL umpires are on one-year performance-based contract, that like players, end on October 31.  The AFL Umpiring Department is currently working through a list management process to determine who will be offered a new 2020 contract and who won’t.  This year there were a number of umpires “put under review” towards the end of the season.  For many it was the first indication that their time on an AFL umpire list (field, boundary or goal) might be tenuous.

Like AFL Clubs the AFL has an umpire’s list manager who reviews the performance of all our umpires and looks to the state league competitions to see who is coming through the ranks.  The list manager is then responsible for the transition process of the list ready for the October 31 deadline when the lists need to be lodged and those who will not be offered a contract need to review their circumstances.  Some will retire, some will go back to state leagues to mentor young umpires through the system whilst a few will join the coaching ranks and use their skills and expertise that way.

https://aflua.com.au/umpires-and-players-tread-the-same-path/

 

Totally agree with you with your comments.  
I was more trying to make the point that when they make bad decisions during the game not much can be done about it at that point in time . For very obvious reasons it would be impossible to have an immediate performance review process during the game  ( and I have no solution to this at all).  On the fly, maybe allow one captains challenge but I think in this particular issue this could lead to many more complications due to the interpretative nature of the rule - so forget it

I just feel that this dissent rules can and will further exasperate bad decisions that at times will be made. Sure the umpires performances can, should and is reviewed at a later point in time, but the damage may have already been done. Hope that makes sense.

Cheers 

 

[rjay 24,916]

I'm waiting for the first 50 to be given against a player raising his arms to guard the mark.

You just know it's going to happen...

[daisycutter 29,612]

7 minutes ago, rjay said:

I'm waiting for the first 50 to be given against a player raising his arms to guard the mark.

You just know it's going to happen...

would love to see nick kyrgios playing afl just for the laughs

[Macca 16,958]

4 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

would love to see nick kyrgios playing afl just for the laughs

Well there's a bloke who seems to be able to escape the wrath of the tennis authorities

Bring back Ash Barty!!

19 minutes ago, rjay said:

I'm waiting for the first 50 to be given against a player raising his arms to guard the mark.

You just know it's going to happen...

I'm not so sure rjay

The new ruling is going to be thrashed out and the clarity might arrive more quickly than we think

Of course, if the player who raises his arms also lets out some form of abuse, we may not know what the 50 is for (as the players aren't mic'd up) ... unless we can hear what the umpire is saying

At the ground, it could be like the VARS ruling in soccer (the punters left guessing)

So there's a fair bit to play out but again, in principle, I agree with the new ruling as something needed to be done

 

[MT64 1,144]

On 4/19/2022 at 9:35 AM, Lucifers Hero said:

Agreed.

And what happens when that is replayed on the big screen at the ground, which broadcasts will do as it is part of the theatre.  The next time a player on that field 'dissents' what is the umpire to do.  Damned if he penalises and damned if he doesn't. 

I can see an AFL directive to not replay contentious decisions on the big screen moving forward. Be just like the AFL to protect their own. Supporters own the game and really the AFL need to be reminded of that. I may get howled down but some of the current batch of umpires DO favour certain teams/players to the detriment of the others (Hawkins, Selwood and Dangerfield spring to mind) and players do react to bad decisions as well as crowds. To fix the "dessent" player reactions I believe is in the hands of the AFL and umpire dept not so much as the players. Again bad decisions cause most of the problems.

You see some tackled players spin around 360+ and umpire calls play on then others tackled immediately on getting the ball and being pinged HTB straight away. Set the bar one way AFL then adjudicate. That would be a good start.

Edited April 20, 2022 by MT64
spelling

[Redleg 40,889]

44 minutes ago, rjay said:

I'm waiting for the first 50 to be given against a player raising his arms to guard the mark.

You just know it's going to happen...

Yes I posted that very thing earlier and it's only a matter of time. Then when the player complains, another 50. Hope it's not us.

[Axis of Bob 11,784]

1 hour ago, Redleg said:

Not according to 20 year VAFA umpire Brian Clarke, who says it is making it much harder for he and his fellow umpires and leading to more crowd anger.

To my knowledge, they don't pay that rule in the VAFA. Clarke's comment would have been of a general nature (ie, AFL level), rather than specific to his umpiring or VAFA crowds. 

However the VAFA has had several other rules for a long time that are similar to this, such as an automatic sending off for audible obscenities, that aren't applied at AFL level. In fact the only time I've ever been sent off has been for dissenting an umpire's decision, and that was 20 years ago!

[Axis of Bob 11,784]

12 minutes ago, MT64 said:

 .... fix the "dessent" player reactions I believe is in the hands of the AFL and umpire dept not so much as the players. Again bad decisions cause most of the problems.

You see some tackled players spin around 360+ and umpire calls play on then others tackled immediately on getting the ball and being pinged HTB straight away.

What if a player is spin 350 degrees, but it takes a while to happen? Was the opponent balancing his hands on a player's back in a marking contest or pushing them out of the contest? What if both players grab each other but one is doing it much more than the other? What if a player brushes against the lower leg when they're laying a tackle around the hips?

The game requires so much interpretation because pretty much every contest is technically a free kick if you look hard enough at it. 

It's impossible to have supporters happy about the umpiring because a decision involves so much interpretation by umpires. If you want proof of that, just listen to how many opposition supporters you disagree with when they scream about umpiring at a Melbourne game!

[rpfc 28,377]

3 hours ago, Jaded No More said:

None of the other rules in the game are 'emotional'. That is, all umpires know they need to pay free kicks for in the back, trips, incorrect disposal, head high tackles etc etc. Yes of course it can be interpreted and umpires, like all humans, will make mistakes and see it differently, but overall the rules are quite clear cut.

This rule is dependant on the emotions of an umpire. What I interpret as abuse or dissent, is different to what you would, and can also vary greatly from day to day, depending on what else is happening in our lives. Sometimes we are more sensitive, sometimes we aren't. Similarly an umpire might like a player, have a good relationship with them, and will be happy to get asked a question. Sometimes the umpire would have had a crap day and is sick of everyone and will call a 50 for everything and anything.

This rule is too prone to inconsistency, as seen by the 50 plus actions this week that you could interpret as 'dissent' that went unpunished, and the few that were borderline abusive and did get punished.

What if I put my arms out because I am annoyed at myself or my teammate and an umpire thinks it's to do with them?

As always, the AFL has good intentions, but their execution is horrendously flawed.  

You want to get more umpires into the fold and improve the standard of umpiring, then pay them. You say how important umpires are to our game, and they absolutely are, yet they aren't important enough to employ full time, when the AFL employs people to work on their Instagram full time for goodness sake.
It is clearly not important enough for the AFL, so they try to plaster over the real issues with bandaid solutions which are making it worse.

If umpires were full time professionals who got paid handsomely for playing such a big role in our game, it would significantly improve participation in lower levels, because it is a legitimate career path instead of something you do on weekends only to get a rousing round of boos from fans. 

They should be professional and that is a seperate issue. 

The ‘emotions of an umpire’ is a bit rich, it’s how they subjectively see something and that is what a blanket ‘demonstrative dissent’ rule seeks to ameliorate. If you throw your arms out after a decision has been made by an umpire - you are pinged or a 50m is applied. 

This removes the subjectiveness (and the emotions).

[Jjrogan 1,420]

2 hours ago, Pates said:

I think what would be a much better system is that outright abuse (mouthing off directly at the umpire) get paid on the field preferably with a 25-30m penalty, and dissent (arms up etc) be a fine directly to the player, and make the fine a % of the players match fee rather than a set price. 

The thing that bothers me the most is that the 50m penalty is the HIGHEST penalty on the field. Late hits, thuggish behaviour, and violent acts are on the same level as a player putting their arms up in frustration. That doesn’t make sense to me. 

This is a fantastic suggestion imo 

Minor dissent should be a 25 or 30 metre penalty.  

Many sport have different levels of penalties (typically umpire disrespect is the harshest tho). 

Given how relatively minor waving your hands at the ump in frustration is (and I'm for a penalty),  it might be a suitable middle ground as it gets implemented. 

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Kit Walker said:

Pretty much all of them really:

Cricket - lbw is literally predicting what's going to happen next

Not comparable. Whether or not a batsman is given out lb doesn’t depend on how the umpire personally  ‘felt’ at the time. Of course, if this new dissent rule was adopted, the batsman’s reaction would make for a  valid comparison. But that’s moot since the rules of cricket don’t change every five minutes. 🙄 And when they do, they make sense and are easy to police.

 

[rjay 24,916]

45 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

To my knowledge, they don't pay that rule in the VAFA. Clarke's comment would have been of a general nature (ie, AFL level), rather than specific to his umpiring or VAFA crowds. 

However the VAFA has had several other rules for a long time that are similar to this, such as an automatic sending off for audible obscenities, that aren't applied at AFL level. In fact the only time I've ever been sent off has been for dissenting an umpire's decision, and that was 20 years ago!

I remember when they brought something similar into the Southern League, probably in the 90's...

I was coaching and had been held up in the rooms for a minute when the game started, and I kid you not it was only a minute and when I got to the box I had an extra 2 players...the 2 biggest mouths in the club/competition. 

What are you 2 doing here - we've been sent off for swearing - that would be right.

[Demonland 72,081]

 

[sue 9,101]

What if you keep your arms down but roll your eyes?