The goal output of key fwds has been dropping for years now and it won’t be long before a mid or small fwd wins the Colman, Key fwds are the dinosaurs of the afl. If JVR can kick goals and do the team things it doesn’t matter what height he is.

1 hour ago, one_demon said:

The era where full forwards just stood in the goal square for most of the day

Not in the case of Dunstall

1 hour ago, one_demon said:

The era where full forwards just stood in the goal square for most of the day

Really ? Did you see Jakovich or Dunstall play ?

I don't think either could be described in that way,. Both had exceptional footy IQ, great strong hands on the lead, beautiful kicks for goal and fantastic at protecting the drop zone when competing for marks one on one.  

Both incredible talents and both would still do very well today - obviously just my opinion 

1 hour ago, Deedubs said:

I never said all good forwards are 199cm. I simply said that the average 'tall forward' is about 199cm. Across a sample size of about 20 of the leading key forwards. That's a large enough sample size to see the direction that the league is heading. 

I would always take a good hybrid forward like a Heeney or Fritsch over a bad forward of true key position height like Callum Coleman-Jones. But once Ben Brown is done, we will have the smallest forward line in the league height wise. I think Gawn can play full time forward in a few years if Jackson stays but I think it's really important to be dangerous in the air and make opponents put their tallest defender on our tallest forward. With a forward line of TMac and Van Rooyen, it's a very easy match up for opposition as they'll never have to worry about being out-sized. Both are not super mobile and both are not tall. Both are not quick. That doesn't mean they aren't good or in JVR won't be a great player and have other traits like footy smarts, goal sense, be a strong mark etc. but in terms of match ups these guys won't stress the opposition. If Gawn plays forward or we somehow find a genuine 200cm+ tall forward then all of a sudden TMac and JVR are getting 2nd tall defenders. 

I'm just going to play with stats here a little bit... because why not?

In the last 21 years (since 2000) the average height of the Coleman medalist has been 195.09cm. There is a slight increase in average height if you include only the last 10 years - 196.9. If, however, you look at the top goal scorers over the last 10 years, the average height is  191.8cm

 

Season	Player	Height
2021	Harry McKay	204
2020	Tom Hawkins	198
2019	Jeremy Cameron	196
2018	Jack Riewoldt	193
2017	Lance 'Buddy' Franklin	199
2016	Josh Kennedy	196
2015	Josh Kennedy	196
2014	Lance 'Buddy' Franklin	199
2013	Jarryd Roughead	193
2012	Jack Riewoldt	193
2011	Lance 'Buddy' Franklin	199
2010	Jack Riewoldt	193
2009	Brendan Fevola	191
2008	Lance 'Buddy' Franklin	199
2007	Jonathan Brown	195
2006	Brendan Fevola	191
2005	Fraser Gehrig	195
2004	Fraser Gehrig	195
2003	Matthew Lloyd	192
2002	David Neitz	191
2001	Matthew Lloyd	192
2000	Matthew Lloyd	192
	avg last 21 years	195.0909091
	avg last 10 YEARS	196.9090909

 

1. Lance Franklin (639)	199
2. Jack Riewoldt (574)	193
3. Josh Kennedy (562)	196
4. Tom Hawkins (495)	198
5. Eddie Betts (477)	174
6. Taylor Walker (403)	194
6. Jeremy Cameron (403)	196
8. Jarryd Roughead (394)	193
9. Luke Bruest (392)	184
10. Jack Darling (378)	191
AVERAGE	191.8

I'd quite confidently back in little-fellas like Lloyd (192), Pavlich (192), Fevola (191), Jonathan Brown (195) and little Davie Neitz (191) to have a pretty solid impact on the game today.

Zero concerns about JVR's height; it's all about how you use it. 

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

Zero concerns about JVR's height; it's all about how you use it. 

 

 

 

Me also - I've seen different reports that have him at between 193cm and 195cm and most go back to the beginning of last year. At some stage when he gets picked to make his debut, no doubt the club will disclose the latest figures and we'll know more. He definitely looks no shorter than the Weid who is listed at 195cm.

15 hours ago, Deedubs said:

Curnow is the exception to the rule. But I don't see him as a true key forward. if you look at all of the leading goal kickers, it's undeniable that they're getting bigger and bigger. 
 

The average is 199cm for all key forwards. 199cm! 193cm is noticeably shorter than the average of true key forwards. So we need to recruit a true size key forward and key back.  
 

Tom Lynch: 199cm
Hawkins: 198cm
J.Cameron: 196cm
Peter Wright: 203cm
Max King: 202cm
Naughton: 195cm
Mackay: 204cm
Casboult: 199cm
Chol: 200cm
Franklin: 199cm
Daniher: 201cm
Nick Larkey: 198cm
Mitch Lewis: 199cm
Ben Brown: 200cm
Himmelberg: 195cm
Josh Kennedy: 196cm
*Ben King: 202cm
*injured

This list is a bit misleading as you've decided to not include guys like:

Tom McDonald - 194cm

Charlie Curnow - 192cm

Dan McStay - 196cm

Jack Darling - 191cm

Taylor Walker - 194cm

Jack Reiwoldt - 195cm

Brody Mihocek - 192cm

They all have had great impacts on games of football

There is a distinct difference between key forwards of the past and key forwards now. It's about how you win the football and the skill set needed to be successful at that.

In the 80s and 90s, the game was one on one and key forwards had to beat their opponent one on one. In 2022 a key forward needs to beat a system of defenders, so beating your own man isn't enough. Instead you need to win the ball against several opponents at once.

The skills needed by Dunstall were to win a strength contest with his opponent to either take the mark or beat them on the lead into space. To do this all he needs to be is really strong and fast on the burst. He rarely had to jump at the ball because all of his work was being done whilst on the ground (pushing, leading etc). 

In 2022 a key forward needs to be able to mark against multiple opponents, or at least create a contest against them, since there simply isn't the space up forward to be able to get consistent one on one contests. As a result the skills set required is people who can jump at the ball and mark it high in a pack. This means that key forwards are getting taller because this helps them with the skills they need now. 

Van Rooyen got several one on ones against North because they are terrible (and Majak cleaned them up in the ruck), but he did it well. However he probably wouldn't be able to do this at AFL level because he wouldn't get the space. Weideman took a few excellent contested marks against multiple opponents, which is more of an AFL style skill. That's not to say that Van Rooyen won't be a good AFL player, but it will probably be once he becomes a genuine big body so that he can be more of a super hard working battle axe who is super competitive and halves a lot of contests. More of a Tom McDonald or Jeremy McGovern style of player (up forward).

Gawn to play the final 2 years on his career at full forward please. Would legit give opposition defenders sleepless nights.

He's a 40+ contested mark, 35+ goal kicker well into his mid 30s id say. 

43 minutes ago, Action Jackson said:

This list is a bit misleading as you've decided to not include guys like:

Tom McDonald - 194cm

Charlie Curnow - 192cm

Dan McStay - 196cm

Jack Darling - 191cm

Taylor Walker - 194cm

Jack Reiwoldt - 195cm

Brody Mihocek - 192cm

They all have had great impacts on games of football

Half of the players you just listed are taller than JVR so not sure what you're getting at? Also, is it any coincidence that the list of players you provided is significantly worse than the list of players I provided? I wouldn't want Mihocek, Mcdonald, Darling or even Walker being our key forward for the next 10-15 years if they were at the start of their career. 200cm+ please. 

 

19 minutes ago, Deedubs said:

Half of the players you just listed are taller than JVR so not sure what you're getting at? Also, is it any coincidence that the list of players you provided is significantly worse than the list of players I provided? I wouldn't want Mihocek, Mcdonald, Darling or even Walker being our key forward for the next 10-15 years if they were at the start of their career. 200cm+ please. 

 

Taylor Walker would be the third greatest goal kicker we’ve ever had (will most likely be the second by the time he retires.)

Would very happily take a young Walker, Darling or McDonald for the next 10 years.

(not that we’d need them - we’ve got JVR!)

4 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

Taylor Walker would be the third greatest goal kicker we’ve ever had (will most likely be the second by the time he retires.)

Would very happily take a young Walker, Darling or McDonald for the next 10 years.

(not that we’d need them - we’ve got JVR!)

I think you'll be happy then because JVR looks like a Mcdonald clone to me. 

1 minute ago, Deedubs said:

I think you'll be happy then because JVR looks like a Mcdonald clone to me. 

Yes.

A 200 game premiership player.

 

2 hours ago, Sydee said:

Really ? Did you see Jakovich or Dunstall play ?

I don't think either could be described in that way,. Both had exceptional footy IQ, great strong hands on the lead, beautiful kicks for goal and fantastic at protecting the drop zone when competing for marks one on one.  

Both incredible talents and both would still do very well today - obviously just my opinion 

Jakovich would never lay a tackle. I think he mentioned it once when discussing the modern day game.

2 minutes ago, TeamPlayedFine39 said:

Yes.

A 200 game premiership player.

 

lol. this 'premiership player' tag is a little over the top. There's been a lot of spuds that have been premiership players but yeah he had a career like Tom Mcdonald then I'd take that. Hopefully not being a butcher in the backline for the first 7 years of his career.  

A bit harsh Deedubs, however I cannot quite remember Tommy kicking 6 in the Magoos as an 18/19 yo. We have to judge and enjoy them on their merits.!!

JVR might be only 193 cms, but he plays like 194 cms.

3 minutes ago, Ugottobekidding said:

Jakovich would never lay a tackle. I think he mentioned it once when discussing the modern day game.

He laid 12 tackles in his 54 game career. That's an average of 0.2 per game.

He had more Brownlow votes than tackles and he had 10 of those Brownlow votes in his first 9 games. He had more scoring shots in a game on 9 occasions than he had tackles in his career. 

He average 17.3 goals per tackle. Hilarious.

The fact is Jacob just turned 19 in April and may grow between now and when he turns 22 so how tall he will be in his prime is a question that no one can answer at the present.

Most football clubs rarely measure their players after they were recruited.

18 minutes ago, Axis of Bob said:

He laid 12 tackles in his 54 game career. That's an average of 0.2 per game.

He had more Brownlow votes than tackles and he had 10 of those Brownlow votes in his first 9 games. He had more scoring shots in a game on 9 occasions than he had tackles in his career. 

He average 17.3 goals per tackle. Hilarious.

He was there to kick goals and kick goals he did 

Equal least number of games to kick 100 goals (With John Coleman)

Tackles - no not his strength but I'd still love him in our team

4 hours ago, Sydee said:

Really ? Did you see Jakovich or Dunstall play ?

Yes

  

4 hours ago, Sydee said:

Both had exceptional footy IQ, great strong hands on the lead, beautiful kicks for goal and fantastic at protecting the drop zone when competing for marks one on one. 

I'm not disputing their skills.  What I'm saying is that they didn't have to play in a zone defence, so they could stand in the goal square all game and only needed to move out when the team had the ball in the midfield and were moving forward.    

 

Edited May 18, 20223 yr by one_demon

1 hour ago, one_demon said:

Yes

  

I'm not disputing their skills.  What I'm saying is that they didn't have to play in a zone defence, so they could stand in the goal square all game and only needed to move out when the team had the ball in the midfield and were moving forward.    

 

Well maybe these types of player, were they around now, could be a part of beating a zone defence. 
I have sometime wondered if a “Pagans paddock” - for the youngsters plating Carey one on one inside 50 - could also be an option pushing a zone defence deeper than they would wish. 

5 hours ago, Axis of Bob said:

He laid 12 tackles in his 54 game career. That's an average of 0.2 per game.

He had more Brownlow votes than tackles and he had 10 of those Brownlow votes in his first 9 games. He had more scoring shots in a game on 9 occasions than he had tackles in his career. 

He average 17.3 goals per tackle. Hilarious.

Would’ve fitted in well at Essendon this year.

6 hours ago, DeeZone said:

A bit harsh Deedubs, however I cannot quite remember Tommy kicking 6 in the Magoos as an 18/19 yo. We have to judge and enjoy them on their merits.!!

Mcdonald was a backman in his first 7 years of his career...

8 hours ago, FlashInThePan said:

I'm just going to play with stats here a little bit... because why not?

In the last 21 years (since 2000) the average height of the Coleman medalist has been 195.09cm. There is a slight increase in average height if you include only the last 10 years - 196.9. If, however, you look at the top goal scorers over the last 10 years, the average height is  191.8cm

 

 

Season	Player	Height
2021	Harry McKay	204
2020	Tom Hawkins	198
2019	Jeremy Cameron	196
2018	Jack Riewoldt	193
2017	Lance 'Buddy' Franklin	199
2016	Josh Kennedy	196
2015	Josh Kennedy	196
2014	Lance 'Buddy' Franklin	199
2013	Jarryd Roughead	193
2012	Jack Riewoldt	193
2011	Lance 'Buddy' Franklin	199
2010	Jack Riewoldt	193
2009	Brendan Fevola	191
2008	Lance 'Buddy' Franklin	199
2007	Jonathan Brown	195
2006	Brendan Fevola	191
2005	Fraser Gehrig	195
2004	Fraser Gehrig	195
2003	Matthew Lloyd	192
2002	David Neitz	191
2001	Matthew Lloyd	192
2000	Matthew Lloyd	192
	avg last 21 years	195.0909091
	avg last 10 YEARS	196.9090909

 

 

1. Lance Franklin (639)	199
2. Jack Riewoldt (574)	193
3. Josh Kennedy (562)	196
4. Tom Hawkins (495)	198
5. Eddie Betts (477)	174
6. Taylor Walker (403)	194
6. Jeremy Cameron (403)	196
8. Jarryd Roughead (394)	193
9. Luke Bruest (392)	184
10. Jack Darling (378)	191
AVERAGE	191.8

Why are you including Betts and Breust in your averages? They aren't key forwards. I was saying the avg height for a good key forward as of 2022 is 199cm.This is from a sample of 20 key forwards in the leading goal kickers of this year. So I'm not sure why you would include a 174cm forward pocket lol.